Standing Offhand Shooting

littlepod

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  • Oct 16, 2012
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    I've been watching multiple videos on offhand shooting with a sling. I've got prone down well, kneeling and sitting, but standing is just very difficult for me. I tried to do the throw my left hip out (rh shooter), and shove my left elbow in the hip, and thus I have a pretty stable platform for the rifle. The problem is I'm pretty thin, and when my elbow is on my body, the rifle is sitting basically at my chest level. It's way too low for me to get behind it and see behind the scope. So I'm then having to try to lift my left hip, or do something really uncomfortable to see through the scope and take the shot.

    Any suggestions for shooting offhand w/ sling for someone who's not bigger / that muscular. I watch others in competitions shoot offhand, and they have a lot more body mass to rest their elbow on.
     
    Maybe this will help...

    IMG_3078.JPG

    Supporting the rifle using the mag?
     
    But keep in mind if you are shooting matches sometimes it’s required to be off hand, but that is rare since most rifles are so heavy.
     
    High power shooting we don’t use a sling to shoot offhand at 200 yards. My best advice to you is to get in position relax and close your eyes then open your eyes and if you are off target move one your feet to adjust and repeat the process until you are on target when you open your eyes. Don’t try to muscle the gun on the target. Breathe in and watch the front post or cross hair fall on the target. You gave about 3 seconds to break the shot before the movement gets bad. If you can’t break the shot start over.
     
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    Standing offhand stance depends upon weather or not you can use a sling for support as they differ in how the rifle is held by the front arm. I'm over 6' and on the thinner side as well so this may apply to you.

    1) NO SLING ALLOWED: NRA silhouette and CMP rules for standing rimfire and highpower do not allow the use of a sling, and in at least silhouette you cannot use the magazine for support either as illustrated in Hlee's excellent previous post #4. I shoot rimfire and highpower silhouette and my pose is pretty much a copy of that picture except I have my elbow higher on the hip and use spread fingertips across the stock in front of the magwell and a thumb on trigger guard to hold the front of the rifle. Center of gravity for my rifles is pretty close to the front of the magwell. Fingers do get tired if held for 15+ seconds, and for me that happens about every 5th shot or so. I just go back to rest and then start over to rebuild my stance otherwise wobble becomes too much from finger fatigue. I dont think NRL cares if you use the mag for support or not. The guys that cannot use the hip as support (differing body mechanics) pull their front arm towards their front side basically resting it on their chest pectoral muscles. This uses more muscle as opposed to joint locking but we have guys shooting AAA and master using this technique so it can work too. You have to find out which one works for you.

    Notice in that pic that elbow is up high at 90 degrees as that sets up a pocket in your shoulder socket for the rifle butt to fit into, varies from person to person but it is there. Also notice how high up the stock is, just the bottom of the butt is in the shoulder pocket. This definitely differs from bench or prone on how much surface area the stock has touching your body. You'd think that you'd get a pretty good bruise from that little area being the only contact point for recoil, but truth is I get very little bruising in standing position, I get a lot more from the bench position or shooting shotguns. 2 big tips that helped me a lot in silhouette was getting a stock or stock pad with a proper cheek weld, that sets up the 2nd tip of only moving your head forward and down when sighting down the scope as opposed to cocking it over the side of the stock---you cock your head sideways over the stock and it screws with your center of balance and stability suffers. Took me almost 3 years to put that into effective practice even though lots of experienced ppl told me about it.

    Footwork: you change windage of your stance by planting your front foot and pivoting on it by moving rear foot left and right to change natural point of aim. Elevation changes by bring feet closer together to lower NPOA or spreading further apart to raise NPOA. I start by having my feet shoulder width apart and body bladed 80-90 degrees to target and adjust to suit.


    2) SLINGS ALLOWED: Hasty or Hasty hasty (quick hasty) allow you to put some the rifle weight onto the sling and set up more points of contact for rifle to body. this allows for more control of rifle wobble and shrinks it considerably vs no sling. Sling will move your hand further out on the forearm of the stock as you almost feel like you are pulling the rifle into your shoulder as oppose to no sling techniques that just support the rifle at level. Fingers just lightly grip the forearm, not putting much grip ,if any, into it as the forearm should be laying along the lifeline of your palm. Same elbow, pocket, head and foot positions as above for non-sling use.

    I'm not going to go into how to properly sling up as I don't feel that I could get the ideas across in words very well. What I do advocate is getting some live training. I'd highly recommend taking a Project Appleseed https://appleseedinfo.org/ 2 day course as they are heavy into sling use for all positions and they teach you how to sling up, breathe, NPOA, and body mechanics. They are really reasonably priced and will work at your skill level.

    I like Magpul's RLS Rifleman loop slings. They work like a modified ching sling, kind of a cross between a 1903 leather and G.I. cotton sling. They are easier to get into and out of then GI or 1903 slings and are wide enough to give support. Only 2 downsides I've found with them is they are not as easy to adjust for length as a GI (but once you have it set up correctly there isn't a need to do so) and if they get wet the web will sometimes fold over on itself under the slider if it isn't pulled exactly straight. They also have enough extra length to add in a extra swivel set so you can have hasty config length and sitting/prone lengths without having to adjust each time. They are inexpensive at $20 or less on sale and at that price I've gotten several dedicated and preset to one rifle. My next favorite sling is the unpadded VCAS as it also works in most positions for support---don't get the padded one if you want to use it for support as the padding wont allow you pull enough slack out of it.


    Magpul RLS sling with 2 rear swivel sets. long config for using prone or seated/kneeling middle QD swivel unattached


    short config for using standing with hasty technique, middle QD swivel attached
     
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    Standing offhand stance depends upon weather or not you can use a sling for support as they differ in how the rifle is held by the front arm. I'm over 6' and on the thinner side as well so this may apply to you.

    1) NO SLING ALLOWED: NRA silhouette and CMP rules for standing rimfire and highpower do not allow the use of a sling, and in at least silhouette you cannot use the magazine for support either as illustrated in Hlee's excellent previous post #4. I shoot rimfire and highpower silhouette and my pose is pretty much a copy of that picture except I have my elbow higher on the hip and use spread fingertips across the stock in front of the magwell and a thumb on trigger guard to hold the front of the rifle. Center of gravity for my rifles is pretty close to the front of the magwell. Fingers do get tired if held for 15+ seconds, and for me that happens about every 5th shot or so. I just go back to rest and then start over to rebuild my stance otherwise wobble becomes too much from finger fatigue. I dont think NRL cares if you use the mag for support or not. The guys that cannot use the hip as support (differing body mechanics) pull their front arm towards their front side basically resting it on their chest pectoral muscles. This uses more muscle as opposed to joint locking but we have guys shooting AAA and master using this technique so it can work too. You have to find out which one works for you.

    Notice in that pic that elbow is up high at 90 degrees as that sets up a pocket in your shoulder socket for the rifle butt to fit into, varies from person to person but it is there. Also notice how high up the stock is, just the bottom of the butt is in the shoulder pocket. This definitely differs from bench or prone on how much surface area the stock has touching your body. You'd think that you'd get a pretty good bruise from that little area being the only contact point for recoil, but truth is I get very little bruising in standing position, I get a lot more from the bench position or shooting shotguns. 2 big tips that helped me a lot in silhouette was getting a stock or stock pad with a proper cheek weld, that sets up the 2nd tip of only moving your head forward and down when sighting down the scope as opposed to cocking it over the side of the stock---you cock your head sideways over the stock and it screws with your center of balance and stability suffers. Took me almost 3 years to put that into effective practice even though lots of experienced ppl told me about it.

    Footwork: you change windage of your stance by planting your front foot and pivoting on it by moving rear foot left and right to change natural point of aim. Elevation changes by bring feet closer together to lower NPOA or spreading further apart to raise NPOA. I start by having my feet shoulder width apart and body bladed 80-90 degrees to target and adjust to suit.


    2) SLINGS ALLOWED: Hasty or Hasty hasty (quick hasty) allow you to put some the rifle weight onto the sling and set up more points of contact for rifle to body. this allows for more control of rifle wobble and shrinks it considerably vs no sling. Sling will move your hand further out on the forearm of the stock as you almost feel like you are pulling the rifle into your shoulder as oppose to no sling techniques that just support the rifle at level. Fingers just lightly grip the forearm, not putting much grip ,if any, into it as the forearm should be laying along the lifeline of your palm. Same elbow, pocket, head and foot positions as above for non-sling use.

    I'm not going to go into how to properly sling up as I don't feel that I could get the ideas across in words very well. What I do advocate is getting some live training. I'd highly recommend taking a Project Appleseed https://appleseedinfo.org/ 2 day course as they are heavy into sling use for all positions and they teach you how to sling up, breathe, NPOA, and body mechanics. They are really reasonably priced and will work at your skill level.

    I like Magpul's RLS Rifleman loop slings. They work like a modified ching sling, kind of a cross between a 1903 leather and G.I. cotton sling. They are easier to get into and out of then GI or 1903 slings and are wide enough to give support. Only 2 downsides I've found with them is they are not as easy to adjust for length as a GI (but once you have it set up correctly there isn't a need to do so) and if they get wet the web will sometimes fold over on itself under the slider if it isn't pulled exactly straight. They also have enough extra length to add in a extra swivel set so you can have hasty config length and sitting/prone lengths without having to adjust each time. They are inexpensive at $20 or less on sale and at that price I've gotten several dedicated and preset to one rifle. My next favorite sling is the unpadded VCAS as it also works in most positions for support---don't get the padded one if you want to use it for support as the padding wont allow you pull enough slack out of it.


    Magpul RLS sling with 2 rear swivel sets. long config for using prone or seated/kneeling middle QD swivel unattached


    short config for using standing with hasty technique, middle QD swivel attached


    Thanks everyone for your help. I just got home from vacation so I got to take out a sling and play around with it some more. Using the arm-cuff sling method, requires me to be able to sit my elbow into my hip, which as I mentioned before is way too low. I wasn't able to consistently hit a 2.5" target at 35 yards with it at all. I switched over to the two point / hasty sling method, which allows me/sling to elevate that arm, where my arm is basically resting on the sling with it tensioned tight into my shoulder pocket. This felt actually really good. I still have quite a bit of wobble, so I'll need to practice on pivoting my feet, and stance instead of using my torso to turn/aim at the target. I think the wobble is because I'm using muscles to turn instead of my feet positioning.

    I then did kneeling which also felt great. Prone for whatever reason felt a bit different than my arm cuff sling. I was actually shooting worse in prone compared to the arm cuff sling method. I haven't done enough thought on why that is yet, and how all these mechanics come together. My mind is pretty bad at visualizing all the geometries and tensions involved.

    I just got a DFAT and will try to do some dry practice at home tonight/tomorrow.

    I ended up ordering the Edgar Sherman Design sling since my buddy has a few and it was pretty simple to use as a hasty sling.
     
    From my perspective and background, Hasty sling = hasty to get in and out of, really only works for standing as I get better stability than with a cuff method. I'll use cuff setup for sitting, kneeling and prone as your body geometry changes on how the sling hangs and wraps around your arm in each position and cuff takes longer to get into but works better in those positions.

    Sling lengths vary depending which position you are in, hence why I have two QD swivels at different lengths at the rear. That allows me to quickly change the overall sling length without having to run it through the keepers each time. It also keeps them the same length without constant adjustments that I'd have to do with a GI sling.

    Sling use really benefits from having somebody familiar with a them coach you. lots of little things really make a big difference on how effective they are for you.
     
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    From my perspective and background, Hasty sling = hasty to get in and out of, really only works for standing as I get better stability than with a cuff method. I'll use cuff setup for sitting, kneeling and prone as your body geometry changes on how the sling hangs and wraps around your arm in each position and cuff takes longer to get into but works better in those positions.

    Sling lengths vary depending which position you are in, hence why I have two QD swivels at different lengths at the rear. That allows me to quickly change the overall sling length without having to run it through the keepers each time. It also keeps them the same length without constant adjustments that I'd have to do with a GI sling.

    Sling use really benefits from having somebody familiar with a them coach you. lots of little things really make a big difference on how effective they are for you.
    Thanks. I noticed this as well when practicing today. Standing had improved with hasty sling but the other 3 positions were slightly worse. Going to keep practicing tomorrow.
     
    I have practiced holding/shooting off hand for years. That's how I hunted. I Eventually bought a bipod for long range prone shooting, and love it, but offhand standing is an art that I love. I used to spend hours holding/aiming/dry firing offhand and in different positions. I would grab my rifle while in bed and however I was laying was how I practiced. A friend gave me a crossbow this year and I quickly discovered that I had to shoot every bolt at a different bull or I would 'robin hood' them quite often inside 30 yards.

    If you want to get good at offhand shooting, just practice. You don't have to actually shoot, just hold the rifle. I used to pick a spot on the yard light pole if I was in bed. Other times I would pick a rock or piece of dirt or a corn cob in the neighbor's field and just hold on it.
    I have seen people try to shoot off hand and the barrel moves like it's a weather vane. They don't practice.
    I used to shoot 400-500 rounds a day. 15 yards out to 300 yards. I got pretty good too, being able to hit a 3" plate offhand at 300 yards. I don't know if I can still do that as easily, but I do have my good days.

    The sling was an extra thing that got in the way for me. It took time and you had to set it up and mess with it. I'm a hunter and can't take that time or the critter will be gone. It's offhand or a bipod for me. I don't mind either way.
     
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    It sounds like you are getting ready for the January 2020 NRL 22 match. I feel your pain if you are, hahaha. I think this is a very difficult and almost annoying stage as you have just 120sec. to shoot 4 positions, standing, kneeling, seated, and prone. And standing is only one shot. This doesn't lend much time for correcting proper body and shot position. It will be interesting, good luck to you!
     
    It sounds like you are getting ready for the January 2020 NRL 22 match. I feel your pain if you are, hahaha. I think this is a very difficult and almost annoying stage as you have just 120sec. to shoot 4 positions, standing, kneeling, seated, and prone. And standing is only one shot.

    It's 120 seconds for 10 shots, that is an eternity. https://nrl22.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/NRL22-January-2020-COF.pdf

    In that scenario I would set up for a cuff sling for all the positions as it eats up too much time switching between hasty to cuff, especially for just one shot standing. Standing with a cuff sling isn't ideal, but it will work ok for this.

    Appleseed will train you for this as well. They have a 4 minute, 40 shot AQT with standing, sitting (or kneeling), and prone with mandatory transitions. It's actually my favorite AQT target as I get a little extra time for the sitting/kneeling mode which is normally only 55 seconds for 10 shots in a standard AQT.
     
    These are a couple of my favorite pics for standing sling use from a clinic I took a while back. Note how high in the shoulder pocket the stock is riding with that straight 10/22 factory stock and compare it to Spife's pic in previous post