- Thread starter Gohring65
- Start date
Ok thanks for your input, I have several precision bolt guns. I’ve been down that rabbit hole for 25 years. You wanna talk bolt guns? I’ve been shooting semi’s just as long, now I want to pick apart why they suck so bad. Like I said, it’s all brain food, something else to do.
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I don't think a semi has to "suck so bad" 
.
Tolerances are usually set to allow the gun to run fast.
Most don't build a semi for precision and often it's the shooter that contributes to down range performance.
However you position the bipod, it's consistency that matters the most.
I'm shooting an AR in Mid Range F-open. In the most red headed stepchild caliber, 22 Nosler.
No-Gas, side charge single fed, 1:7, 28" bull, shooting 88grain ELDs, loaded LONG.
Between load development, my skill level, and wind calling, I've got some room to improve.
I don't think I'm capable of out shooting this rifle. YET.
.Tolerances are usually set to allow the gun to run fast.
Most don't build a semi for precision and often it's the shooter that contributes to down range performance.
However you position the bipod, it's consistency that matters the most.
I'm shooting an AR in Mid Range F-open. In the most red headed stepchild caliber, 22 Nosler.
No-Gas, side charge single fed, 1:7, 28" bull, shooting 88grain ELDs, loaded LONG.
Between load development, my skill level, and wind calling, I've got some room to improve.
I don't think I'm capable of out shooting this rifle. YET.
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Some of my words might hurt sensitive peoples feelings. I should put a disclaimer out. You don’t really build a AR, it’s a assembly. If you can change a car tire you can literally change anything on a AR including a barrel.I don't think a semi has to "suck so bad"
Tolerances are usually set to allow the gun to run fast.
Most don't build a semi for precision and often it's the shooter that contributes to down range performance.
However you position the bipod, it's consistency that matters the most.
I'm shooting an AR in Mid Range F-open. In the most red headed stepchild caliber, 22 Nosler.
No-Gas, side charge single fed, 1:7, 28" bull, shooting 88grain ELDs, loaded LONG.
View attachment 7764386
Between load development, my skill level, and wind calling, I've got some room to improve.
I don't think I'm capable of out shooting this rifle. YET.
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Also, if the shooter is determining down range performance, then what’s the limiting factor? Gun or shooter? A shooter that’s capable of 1/2 moa is not going to get a gun that shoots 2 moa to suddenly shoot half moa.
It’s most definitely the guns job to outperform the shooter.
It’s most definitely the guns job to outperform the shooter.
While some refer to an AR as Legos For Adults there is as much or more "building" as many do with a bolt gun.
You can have your favorite gunsmith true up your action, install a pre-fit, pillar your chassis, and buy as many of the parts as you can with an AR.
Here's my CHERRY PICKED 600 yard relay with the 22N.
I didn't come in first (or second) against the 6.5 and 7mm shooters, but for a rookie I don't think I did too bad.
Waterline errors were the shooter as were the two 9's (not my fault, it was the wind )
You can have your favorite gunsmith true up your action, install a pre-fit, pillar your chassis, and buy as many of the parts as you can with an AR.
Here's my CHERRY PICKED 600 yard relay with the 22N.
I didn't come in first (or second) against the 6.5 and 7mm shooters, but for a rookie I don't think I did too bad.
Waterline errors were the shooter as were the two 9's (not my fault, it was the wind
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While some refer to an AR as Legos For Adults there is as much or more "building" as many do with a bolt gun.
You can have your favorite gunsmith true up your action, install a pre-fit, pillar your chassis, and buy as many of the parts as you can with an AR.
Here's my CHERRY PICKED 600 yard relay with the 22N.
I didn't come in first (or second) against the 6.5 and 7mm shooters, but for rookie I don't think I did too bad.
Waterline errors were the shooter as were the two 9's (not my fault, it was the wind
Very cool shooting!
I gotta say, I started puttying together AR parts probably 15 years ago.I was afraid to jump into it because intimidating thoughts of not building it right.
I put the task right up there with putting a square block into a square hole. Any person with a sound mind and normal IQ can do it. You could literally put a production crew together from people off the street. I guess the reason I think that way could be because i rebuilt my dodge transmission on my garage floor with nothing but YouTube and a Haynes manual 70,000 miles ago. So i guess AR could be technical for some.
That’s not taking anything away from your shooting, everyone has a passion for different aspects of the sport.
My passion after years of shooting, is trying to cold bore everything out to a mile and technical data. I’m the 1/2 moa shooter thats bored in the bolt gun rabbit hole and now want to try a new tease. The AR platform is the limiting factor. It’s a 1 moa gun with a 1/2 moa shooter behind it.
So I’ll spend my winter months talking about it on several forums, all the data gathered and all the opinions is a nice little chapter in my head. Then once the weather breaks I’ll test a bunch of stuff and see if I was right. Some guys like talking about this stuff, then there’s guys who are still in high school or peaked in high school and still stuck there mentally, that will come in and try to kill the thread because it’s too technical and it makes theirs narrow minded little brain hurt. Some guys don’t like questioning the norm because they put a lot of money and work into something and it has to be the best. It has to be. The platform can’t have any faults because they “build” them and that’s all they know. They have to feel like they built something perfect. It’s really just a function of maturity, being able to handle truth and facts even when it hurts your feelings. I’ve been in these forums since the early 2000s and it’s always been that way. You think it’s bad here, go in the optics forum and watch guys freak out if you question their favorite brand. I think scope lickers are the worst!
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The best option would be either an upper like the LMT monolithic design, where the upper receiver and handguard are machined from the same piece of aluminum, or something like the Drake Athena (now the Springfield ATC) that removes pressure on the barrel and barrel nut entirely.
The next best thing is an upper and handguard assemble where the handguard attaches directly to the upper, without contacting the barrel nut. Examples would be Aero Enhanced, Seekins IMRT (or SP10), JP LRI-10/SCI-10, Larue OBR/PredatAR/etc, Daniel Defense DD5, and maybe one or two others that I'm not remembering at the moment.
And just for fun, here's the patent for Chris Drake's Athena chassis (it also has some pics of their savage rimfire chassis, for some reason):
US20200284535A1 - Chassis of semiautomatic rifles - Google Patents
A firearm includes a lower receiver defining a trigger well configured to receive an action, a lower forend extending distally from and monolithically formed with the lower receiver, and an upper forend detachably coupled to the lower forend. The lower forend and the upper forend together define...
patents.google.com
The comp version of the Athena (not being made yet, as far as I know) is basically a hybrid between an MDT ACC and an AR15 lower, along with an upper chassis section to cover the gas tube and provide a 12 o'clock picatinny rail.
That’s good indication of problems being present and being remedied. Good post!The best option would be either an upper like the LMT monolithic design, where the upper receiver and handguard are machined from the same piece of aluminum, or something like the Drake Athena (now the Springfield ATC) that removes pressure on the barrel and barrel nut entirely.
The next best thing is an upper and handguard assemble where the handguard attaches directly to the upper, without contacting the barrel nut. Examples would be Aero Enhanced, Seekins IMRT (or SP10), JP LRI-10/SCI-10, Larue OBR/PredatAR/etc, Daniel Defense DD5, and maybe one or two others that I'm not remembering at the moment.
And just for fun, here's the patent for Chris Drake's Athena chassis (it also has some pics of their savage rimfire chassis, for some reason):
US20200284535A1 - Chassis of semiautomatic rifles - Google Patents
A firearm includes a lower receiver defining a trigger well configured to receive an action, a lower forend extending distally from and monolithically formed with the lower receiver, and an upper forend detachably coupled to the lower forend. The lower forend and the upper forend together define...patents.google.com
The comp version of the Athena (not being made yet, as far as I know) is basically a hybrid between an MDT ACC and an AR15 lower, along with an upper chassis section to cover the gas tube and provide a 12 o'clock picatinny rail.
If it's a no-gas, single-shot is it really still an AR at that point? Or just a funny looking bolt gun?I don't think a semi has to "suck so bad"
Tolerances are usually set to allow the gun to run fast.
Most don't build a semi for precision and often it's the shooter that contributes to down range performance.
However you position the bipod, it's consistency that matters the most.
I'm shooting an AR in Mid Range F-open. In the most red headed stepchild caliber, 22 Nosler.
No-Gas, side charge single fed, 1:7, 28" bull, shooting 88grain ELDs, loaded LONG.
View attachment 7764386
Between load development, my skill level, and wind calling, I've got some room to improve.
I don't think I'm capable of out shooting this rifle. YET.
Agreed. I once told my smith about an AR that I was "building" and it looked like I caused him physical pain. I realized I was talking to a guy that uses a mill and lathe all day and actually builds things, while I was just assembling parts.
I guess a lot of it is having the best smith build your bolt gun
Found them. Scrolled and scrolled until I found 113.
Now listening to 112 and 113 next.
Back in a few days
Now listening to 112 and 113 next.
Back in a few days
If it's consistent it doesn't matter.
If you do something wrong every time, but it's the same exact wrong way the outcome will be the same.
If you're loading your bipod enough to flex the upper the rounds being there or not probably aren't going to make a noticeable difference.
Let's say my upper flexed zeroing my rifle, it shoots a bug hole. Every time I shoot I load the rifle the exact same as when I zeroed it and pretend weather conditions don't exist. It'll still shoot bug holes.
You're probably over thinking it. Also aware you're a self professed troll.
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I know you weren't replying to me, but I agree. Consistency can't be overrated.
And I can shoot my accurate ARs consistently enough that they will group well, both prone off of a bipod or pack, and supported by a barricade. I generally avoid loading the bipod at all, but will pull the rifle into my shoulder firmly. The ARs will shoot a small group in every position, but for most of them the POI will change, generally being higher when supported by a bipod than by a pack or barricade.
Now, this is consistent enough in each position that I could just remember to remove .5 from my prone dope, for example. And the shift is visible on a 100 yard target with a laser in the bore, so not something that is happening under recoil.
But my bolt guns (all mounted in chassis) don't exhibit a positional POI shift at all. And as it turns out, when going to an upper that removes contact between the handguard and the barrel nut, the AR doesn't either.
Personally, if I'm going to build an AR to shoot long distances (i.e. play precision rifle games with, hunt with, etc.) I'd rather it shoot as close to my bolt guns as possible. I'm not saying there isn't something I could change in my shooting to accomplish the same end, just that I prefer a rifle where I don't have to worry about it.
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I agree to some extent, but the mag emptying is not consistent. Changing weight of the mag and spring pressure from the follower pushing up on the bolt is changing with each pull of the trigger. That in turn makes the whole platform inconsistent and can’t be remedied unless it’s a single shot follower.
Then it’s no longer a semi auto.
And… I know I’m overthinking it, that’s my point of the post. Something for guys to over think lol
Also… I never gave myself that troll label.
I’ll never troll anyone who doesn’t rattle my cage first. I don’t go looking for fights, I just don’t put up with trolls. I’ve been on the internet a long time, I can navigate it very well especially when it comes to douche bags. I’m more into these tech convos than dealing with narcissistic ego strokers. But I will…. The mods gave me the reverse counter troll label one night over some trolls rattling my cage and I trolled them back. Lol
I just never changed it cause I don’t care about that shit, it’s funny.
Ps. you need to have a sense of humor about it, you also have to be able to laugh at yourself. Guys who get all upset usually leave with their tail between their legs. Guys who view the whole thing as entertainment usually goes away like they just left a comedy show. Like I said, don’t rattle my cage and you’ll never see the troll in me. I’ll have some of the best conversation you’ll ever have here. I can share 25 years of overthinking everything in long range and reloading or troll trolls. I’m no expert in either, but I’m definitely no beginner in either. People need to lighten up, most of this these forums threads are biased consumer reviews of products. People will always have different opinions, the key is to accept that. Lots can’t accept it though.
This isn’t a direct jab at you Akmike47, but is a opportunity to explain myself a little more.
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Found them. Scrolled and scrolled until I found 113.
Now listening to 112 and 113 next.
Back in a few days
Might check this out while you're at it, especially the video interview with Glen:
Snipers Hide: Seekins Precision Accuracy Explained
Awesome info!
Can't the same thing be said of a bolt gun that is feeding from an internal mag as well?
Careful, you’re digging into more of my overthinking and why I never load the mag, and two of my three most used bolt guns are single shots. Lol My initial thoughts on the mag came from my bolt gun theory.
I thought about that a long time ago. Lol
It’s all really just noise, I can load the mag on my creed and shoot 1/2” groups with a hot barrel, I can shoot single shot and shoot the same groups, maybe a little better, can’t really notice it on paper. Just more stuff to think about and do.
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Since this is a discussion about bipod placement on an AR (even if you guys don't think my No-Gasgun isn't a real AR ),
Here's my take on bipods. Referred to on another forum as my PSB (Plain Stupid Bipod).
),Here's my take on bipods. Referred to on another forum as my PSB (Plain Stupid Bipod).
Well shit man..Since this is a discussion about bipod placement on an AR (even if you guys don't think my No-Gasgun isn't a real AR
Here's my take on bipods. Referred to on another forum as my PSB (Plain Stupid Bipod).
View attachment 7765352
I think it’s a very level headed idea. I absolutely love it! You don’t have a patent do you?!
Imma have to steAl that idea.
Feel Free
NOTE: I used nylok nuts, reamed with a tap, to eliminate wobble in the 3/8" threaded posts.
NOTE: I used nylok nuts, reamed with a tap, to eliminate wobble in the 3/8" threaded posts.
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Dude!! That really is a cool idea, for a lot of reasons.
The PSB(2) weighs about 3 pounds that does not contribute to flex. Barrel overhang might help balance at the "pinch" point.
Since F-Open weight limit is 22 pounds I have some more lead weight in the stock that adds mass but not to flex.
Takes up space behind the buffer tube and in the two storage tubes. I have a little more weight margin left and will probably get up closer to the limit with weight in the right side of the bipod. Maybe even move some of the weight up front from the stock.
This is what I used for that 600yd video. Hopefully I can do better this spring and move over to the 1000yd range.
Smart enough to not try longer than that. Not with a small frame AR. Even if it is the 224V's big brother.
Used a lead filled bag rider with the Bald Eagle rest.
Since F-Open weight limit is 22 pounds I have some more lead weight in the stock that adds mass but not to flex.
Takes up space behind the buffer tube and in the two storage tubes. I have a little more weight margin left and will probably get up closer to the limit with weight in the right side of the bipod. Maybe even move some of the weight up front from the stock.
This is what I used for that 600yd video. Hopefully I can do better this spring and move over to the 1000yd range.
Smart enough to not try longer than that. Not with a small frame AR. Even if it is the 224V's big brother.
Used a lead filled bag rider with the Bald Eagle rest.
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OK, back from running through several podcasts. Helpful stuff.
Still like the AR, and trying slight DIY modifications to store bought parts.
My bolt guns are mostly vintage war rifles that I shoot with open sights. The wife (retired Marine) and I have different shooting styles (that I am trying to change). She's a slap the trigger as soon as she has a sight picture, single load seems strange and doesn't like No-gas at all.
Pretty good shooter and shows up a few with a Mosin 91/30. Shooting for us is more recreation than competition except for some small club events.
I'm almost done "assembling" an AR in 22N, similar to mine but with gas as a Christmas present for her just so we can get back to shooting together at midrange.
Here's one that gets comments at our local range. Won't cycle and the experts always try to explain "dwell time" to me.
Still like the AR, and trying slight DIY modifications to store bought parts.
My bolt guns are mostly vintage war rifles that I shoot with open sights. The wife (retired Marine) and I have different shooting styles (that I am trying to change). She's a slap the trigger as soon as she has a sight picture, single load seems strange and doesn't like No-gas at all.
Pretty good shooter and shows up a few with a Mosin 91/30. Shooting for us is more recreation than competition except for some small club events.
I'm almost done "assembling" an AR in 22N, similar to mine but with gas as a Christmas present for her just so we can get back to shooting together at midrange.
Here's one that gets comments at our local range. Won't cycle and the experts always try to explain "dwell time" to me
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I would just love to try one of the rigid proprietary upper/handguard uppers but one just wouldn't do it and the dollars to put several together on my retirement income would take away from my ammo budget. Yes I am one of those "Poors"
I'm knee deep in the BCA right side charging uppers. Some don't like right side charging but seems to work for me shooting prone.
One little mod I've done to a few lowers is a right side bolt release. Cheaper than store bought options.
I'm knee deep in the BCA right side charging uppers. Some don't like right side charging but seems to work for me shooting prone.
One little mod I've done to a few lowers is a right side bolt release. Cheaper than store bought options.
Hey @Rocketvapor
What’s the deal with mid length gas system on a 20” possible?
18”?
I want to go longer barrel but would like to keep the mid length system.
What’s the deal with mid length gas system on a 20” possible?
18”?
I want to go longer barrel but would like to keep the mid length system.
I have a mid length upper I’d like to just throw a 18-20” on it and roll.
Unless you guys thing a rifle length system will run with a carbine buffer?
Yes. The two systems do not need to have matching names, that's just a misconception based on the naming convention used.
Nice! I’ve always was told it was a not going to run right, so I always just did the rifle length to rifle
Carbine length to carbine. Etc. I’ll probably just order a 20” rifle length then.
The longest gas gun barrel I have with gas is 24" (rifle length) and the 28" (rifle +2) I'm assembling for the wife will use a carbine buffer.
Probably with an AGB and H2 since the 22N is so powerful
Check with your barrel maker for recommended gas length and buffer system.
Low pressure rounds like the 300blk/sub sonic can get by with one step shorter gas length than normal.
The last upper picture I posted is a Green Mountain barrel BLANK with a DIY front sight block for open sights.
21" 223 Wylde 1:7 NO-GAS
When anyone asks about it I tell them is shoots well, but won't cycle
(the gas tube is an aluminum cleaning rod)
I always get it 'plained to me about dwell length.
https://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-biq0...w_8_19_14__76888.1408542122.1280.1280.jpg?c=2
Probably with an AGB and H2 since the 22N is so powerful
Check with your barrel maker for recommended gas length and buffer system.
Low pressure rounds like the 300blk/sub sonic can get by with one step shorter gas length than normal.
The last upper picture I posted is a Green Mountain barrel BLANK with a DIY front sight block for open sights.
21" 223 Wylde 1:7 NO-GAS
When anyone asks about it I tell them is shoots well, but won't cycle
(the gas tube is an aluminum cleaning rod)
I always get it 'plained to me about dwell length.
https://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-biq0...w_8_19_14__76888.1408542122.1280.1280.jpg?c=2
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Yeah it's one of those really persistent AR myths that refuses to die even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Play with PCC's for a bit, and sooner or later you'll literally be looking for wave-springs in your garage and change in your couch cushions to try in your buffer system...
Already been there! Ended up with the Taccom 3 stage. Not sure if it's the best, but it's good enough for me.
Been building ARs for 15 years but doesn’t understand gas system lengths and recoil systems?
That's not that odd.
Go to a public range sometime, plenty of fudds have been shooting for 3 times that long and still don't know which end the fucking bullets come out.
And, by that token, one should not be surprised by another who is eyebrows deep in minutia, but doesn’t have a grasp of basic concepts…
I don’t debate with Fudds at the range either…
I understand them completely, But it’s obvious these guys I was talking to are into them way more than I am, and I have a open minded enough to ask some questions to someone who knows more than me on the subject.
Are you the master of the square block into the square hole building? What do you need to know about them? Nothing?
