Shouldn’t the higher speed help? I’d wonder if the bullet dia is not engraving enough and some are either skipping it otherwise not getting the full benefit of the rifling/speed
- Thread starter AZgeek
- Start date
Could be(?) an bullet engraving issue, but shouldn't be. I mean, .22LR is what, nominally 28k psi at the high end? It should be enough to obturate the heel of the bullet to seal the bore. Perhaps that is the case (the heel not flaring out enough to seal the bore)?
Az,
Did you chrono these keyholing loads? As D and I stated, and increased muzzle velocity should increase stability. Something doesn't add up...
Yes I did chrono. Here are the results of 26 of the 30 rounds fired:
So I had not noticed any stability issue prior to going to a lead alloy. Pure lead seemed to work fine. Its also possible I'm crimping too hard and distorting the heel or its not gas checking consistently due to the hardness. The current alloy version also has a shorter heel. Got to go back to square one and analyze the changes to determine what the hell is going on here.
So I had not noticed any stability issue prior to going to a lead alloy. Pure lead seemed to work fine. Its also possible I'm crimping too hard and distorting the heel or its not gas checking consistently due to the hardness. The current alloy version also has a shorter heel. Got to go back to square one and analyze the changes to determine what the hell is going on here.
Are the alloy bullets the same length as the lead (just weighing less)?
Hi,
So of the ones that did not stabilize....do you know which shots those were in regards to chronograph readings?
Sincerely,
Theis
So of the ones that did not stabilize....do you know which shots those were in regards to chronograph readings?
Sincerely,
Theis
Find you a nice piece of desert. I can tell you, it makes working on prototype ammo a lot easier, and keeps it from prying eyes as bugs/mods are made to the ammo. No sense in leaving an odd piece of "non-existent" ammo for someone to pick up and blast pictures of, all over the internet.
Finally had some time to get back to this development. I increased the bullet bearing surface by adding about 4.5 grains and reducing the heel length by almost half. The center mass three shot group was at 54 yards with the sabot included. Still not happy with a few things on the prototype and need to shoot a 10 shot group to be sure this problem is behind me but happy with these results. I'll be doing that pork shoulder test on Friday!
Next update.
The bottom projo is the latest that incorporates the stabilization changes mentioned above and a deeper sabot insertion.
This next iteration's weight is coming in at 36.6 grains. Still a bit heaver than I want but with the nose being light, had no choice. I'm hoping overall accuracy improves given a more accurate sabot insertion process is now in place. Last test above produced about .75 MOA at 54 yards. If I can get that down to .50 MOA then perhaps I can reach my 1 MOA goal at 100 yards.
What I find interesting is that both bulls-eye hits were cold bore shots. Both second and third ended up shift right/down. Maybe need to shot a few preliminary's to warm things up first.
The bottom projo is the latest that incorporates the stabilization changes mentioned above and a deeper sabot insertion.
This next iteration's weight is coming in at 36.6 grains. Still a bit heaver than I want but with the nose being light, had no choice. I'm hoping overall accuracy improves given a more accurate sabot insertion process is now in place. Last test above produced about .75 MOA at 54 yards. If I can get that down to .50 MOA then perhaps I can reach my 1 MOA goal at 100 yards.
What I find interesting is that both bulls-eye hits were cold bore shots. Both second and third ended up shift right/down. Maybe need to shot a few preliminary's to warm things up first.
Ok so had some fun for a change with this f'n project. Pork roast shot at 54 yards. Direct hit. Hit right under a bone and rode its way in to a depth of a full finger:
And the final warm up for a night on the town! That's an easy 4" depth:
Took a shot to see if I could penetrate a level 3A vest at that distance. Almost but not quite. Keyhold. That will be fixed in next version.
I also did the next four-shot accuracy test. Same .75 MOA group. No pics as I'm off the clock for the rest of the weekend!
And the final warm up for a night on the town! That's an easy 4" depth:
Took a shot to see if I could penetrate a level 3A vest at that distance. Almost but not quite. Keyhold. That will be fixed in next version.
I also did the next four-shot accuracy test. Same .75 MOA group. No pics as I'm off the clock for the rest of the weekend!
As part of preparing my dinner for this evening, I found that we did more damage than previously thought. I did hit the main bone, but at the worst possible angle! Still ended up with the bone fragmentation as indicated in circle 1. Circle 2 is the bone entry point. Circle three is where the energy appears to have separated tissue from the shoulder blade. I found bone fragments behind it.
The largest mushroomed piece of lead weighed in at 16.8 grains. Quick guess, that's a tad over 50% weight retention. I found the remaining lead and the sabot (not shown) about a half inch past my finger insertion. The true test of success is really how this looks coming out of the oven in 40 minutes!
The largest mushroomed piece of lead weighed in at 16.8 grains. Quick guess, that's a tad over 50% weight retention. I found the remaining lead and the sabot (not shown) about a half inch past my finger insertion. The true test of success is really how this looks coming out of the oven in 40 minutes!
Well I wouldn't associate the word "precision" with any my work LOL but significant progress has been made. Last step for this iteration is to test accuracy at 100 yards at full powder charge with both the pure lead and the harder alloy. I'll wrap that up before the weekend.
There will be a break in the action as new nose forming die part needs to be made. I need a heavier nose on these bullets so I can move back to a smaller bearing surface profile. Too large and it creates clambering and extraction issues due to chamber drag. Planning on getting rid of that abrupt 90 degree edge that transitions to the current nose so we can move to semi-auto testing.
There will be a break in the action as new nose forming die part needs to be made. I need a heavier nose on these bullets so I can move back to a smaller bearing surface profile. Too large and it creates clambering and extraction issues due to chamber drag. Planning on getting rid of that abrupt 90 degree edge that transitions to the current nose so we can move to semi-auto testing.
So finally got back on track with this project. VERY happy with initial testing of v2 projectile. New profile, disassembly/assembly process and completely new swaging equipment. No feeding or chambering issues in bolt gun mag. Stable out to 116 yards from quick test. Still smokes right through level 3a vest. Accuracy potential also looks very promising. Formal testing, including semi-auto testing will take place over the course of the next few days.
I can even re-use pulled, plated projos for testing!
I can even re-use pulled, plated projos for testing!
Did you ever think about using a .17 or .20 cal bullet with a teflon sabot?
I think it would make a true long range round out of a .22 LR, within the limitations of the cartridge.
The sabot would reduce pressure/bbl drag and the BC would increase to up in the .200-.250 range (if the twist would stabilize them).
I think it would make a true long range round out of a .22 LR, within the limitations of the cartridge.
The sabot would reduce pressure/bbl drag and the BC would increase to up in the .200-.250 range (if the twist would stabilize them).
No, never went down that road. This approach is an extension of work already done and patented. Ceramic has unique qualities for applications outside of what I'm doing here for 22lr. Just a pet project right now, but this R&D may open up another realm of possibilities for 22lr.
At this point consistent accuracy is my only priority. Lethal benefits are already there.
While certainly not a reliability test, I fired 8 (@34.2 gr.) rounds out of my Ruger 10/22 as fast as I could pull the trigger. Functioned flawlessly! It was seriously bad-ass with the extra recoil in the semi. Not too much but just right! Would have never attempted this with version 1. I think given everything I encountered and have overcome, I'm in the drivers seat now.
Off to the range tomorrow morning for the first round of formal accuracy and speed testing. Going to be testing two bullet weights: 32.5 and 34.0 (+/- .2 grains).
Off to the range tomorrow morning for the first round of formal accuracy and speed testing. Going to be testing two bullet weights: 32.5 and 34.0 (+/- .2 grains).
Ok so we got rushed off the range. Forgot they were not at summer hours yet and only had a half hour to setup and shoot but here it is:
Black dots from today with chrono numbers (50 yards), red dots (63 yards) from the other day with the target flopping around in the wind! Two main observations so far. Best groups are in the 34-35 grain weight range. I think the shitty SD's are due to the residual stock powder sticking to the paste. Easy to prove/disprove this in 10 shots next time out with another brand of brass.
Cycling in both bolt and semi was perfect. Stability issues are a thing of the past. I would NOT go any hotter with loads in the semi but will go hotter for the next round of bolt testing.
Black dots from today with chrono numbers (50 yards), red dots (63 yards) from the other day with the target flopping around in the wind! Two main observations so far. Best groups are in the 34-35 grain weight range. I think the shitty SD's are due to the residual stock powder sticking to the paste. Easy to prove/disprove this in 10 shots next time out with another brand of brass.
Cycling in both bolt and semi was perfect. Stability issues are a thing of the past. I would NOT go any hotter with loads in the semi but will go hotter for the next round of bolt testing.
FYI. After closer examination, the residual power may be a bigger issue that previously thought. I pulled some Federal HV match that I used for the first round of testing as I did not remember observing this to this extent. Sure enough, the Federal has not a spec sticking! Guess Aguila can't even wait for the dam paste to dry before loading! The crimp was stronger on the Federal as well.
There's the SK match ammo thread where someone was indicating that brass & paste consistency is really important. Maybe this example show where some of that variability exists. I'm going to use the remaining pulled Aguila but only with the same powder & charge just as a baseline.
There's the SK match ammo thread where someone was indicating that brass & paste consistency is really important. Maybe this example show where some of that variability exists. I'm going to use the remaining pulled Aguila but only with the same powder & charge just as a baseline.
Aguila used to be "Eley Prime" and are now marked "Aguila Prime". But the priming process may be the same and Eley uses a dry primer instead of a paste. The dry primer is forced into place, a precisely measured amount of water is put in, and then the rounds are placed under a vacuum to speed absorption into the prime compund. The water/binder is what activates the primer.
Thanks for that info billmeek. Tomorrow is a big day for this project. Final testing loads are ready to go with no cross-contamination and will full loads for max expected velocities. Will we have the most lethal and accurate 22lr known to man is the question I hope to answer.
No we don't have the most lethal AND accurate 22lr. Bum'd out by the results. Only two positives. Higher velocities (groups 4 & 5) showed no pressure signs. Not much difference in group sizes from stock Aguila (group 1):
Took 10 shots at 100 yards just for the hell of it. After realizing the drop was more that I expected, held upper left corner and shot the second 5-shot group:
Not an epic fail, but failure non the less....
Took 10 shots at 100 yards just for the hell of it. After realizing the drop was more that I expected, held upper left corner and shot the second 5-shot group:
Not an epic fail, but failure non the less....
You know today is a new day. Regrouping. I did some quick max velocity testing. Best i can do at the moment is this:
Group is .8725 at 53 yards:
Brass cycles fine but you can see the rims swelling at this max load. A factory round on the left for comparisons:
Our test velocity baseline going forward will be slightly lower but still over 1700 fps. Trying to put a positive spin here for my own sanity. For a 35 grain bullet, I think I can say I have the fastest, most lethal and cleanest burning 22lr round. Next steps include baselining my own rifles accuracy with factory ammo and comparing results to the final velocity load in better conditions. Wind was pretty bad yesterday.
Also going to test with another gun, my buddy's Anscultz Model 54. Never seen one but he says its accurate as hell.
Keep you posted on these next developments.
Group is .8725 at 53 yards:
Brass cycles fine but you can see the rims swelling at this max load. A factory round on the left for comparisons:
Our test velocity baseline going forward will be slightly lower but still over 1700 fps. Trying to put a positive spin here for my own sanity. For a 35 grain bullet, I think I can say I have the fastest, most lethal and cleanest burning 22lr round. Next steps include baselining my own rifles accuracy with factory ammo and comparing results to the final velocity load in better conditions. Wind was pretty bad yesterday.
Also going to test with another gun, my buddy's Anscultz Model 54. Never seen one but he says its accurate as hell.
Keep you posted on these next developments.
Lol!
I hate to break it to you, but I have some 38gr HP 22LR that clocks 1800fps. But, this was not using canister powders, so maybe not a fair comparison. This is bolt action only ammo, that was custom hand loaded. There's no way a cheap 22lr semi auto rifle could handle the increased pressure curve and premature unlocking of the action with this stuff. Your ballooning case heads demonstrate why.
I hate to break it to you, but I have some 38gr HP 22LR that clocks 1800fps. But, this was not using canister powders, so maybe not a fair comparison. This is bolt action only ammo, that was custom hand loaded. There's no way a cheap 22lr semi auto rifle could handle the increased pressure curve and premature unlocking of the action with this stuff. Your ballooning case heads demonstrate why.
The fastest rated 22LR currently on the commercial market that I'm aware of is the Aguila Supermaximum pushing a 30 grain (flat-nose or hollow-point) bullet to 1700 FPS.
The fastest 40 grain is the Aguila Interceptor (also as a flat-nose or hollow-point) bullet rated at 1470 FPS.
The CCI Stinger is a 32 grain hollow-point rated for 1640 FPS and has the following note:
The fastest 40 grain is the Aguila Interceptor (also as a flat-nose or hollow-point) bullet rated at 1470 FPS.
The CCI Stinger is a 32 grain hollow-point rated for 1640 FPS and has the following note:
If you liked the SGB, there is a tool available so you can make your own.
Gary Reeder builds them and they work very well.
I plan on doing some revised capability testing soon. Maybe even this weekend. I'll use the CCI Stinger as a baseline as suggested by Tucker on an earlier post. Bill confirmed its rating here and I'll reconfirm at testing. My stuff is accurate enough to test at 50 & 100 yards. I plan on also shooting out to 200 if for no other reason than to confirm stability and drop.
We will have virgin clay to use again for various illustrations and backstops. In addition to bullet proof vests, we'll be testing sloped car windshields, watermelons, real bullet proof glass and aluminum plates. Anything else you gents think would be worth testing against? Real ballistic jell would be nice to try.
Hi,
This ballistic gel is available in both the 10% FBI standards and the 20% NATO standards.
www.clearballistics.com
Sincerely,
Theis
This ballistic gel is available in both the 10% FBI standards and the 20% NATO standards.
Homepage | Clear Ballistics
www.clearballistics.com Sincerely,
Theis
Theis:
That's a bit more than I'm willing to spend right now. With the exception of the watermelons, got everything else. At those prices, going to let LE or military supply gel if that's what they want to see. We can do multiple water jug penetration testing but assuming there is no gel substitutes at like 20 bucks or less right?
That's a bit more than I'm willing to spend right now. With the exception of the watermelons, got everything else. At those prices, going to let LE or military supply gel if that's what they want to see. We can do multiple water jug penetration testing but assuming there is no gel substitutes at like 20 bucks or less right?
Oh yeah, I have that tool. Used a few times to decent effect. Also have the other one (forget who made it) that swages the bullet to a larger diameter for better fit, as well as swaging a deeper, wider HP (almost turning a HP into a full wad cutter profile).
Neat tools for spending boring evenings, killing time (back when I had spare time).
Neal Waltz Die? Paco Kelly Acu'rzr? D-Rock?
Made with the Neil Waltz die set:
EPS Tip on CCI SV:
Left to right: CCI SV, Aguila Interceptor (unmodified), Aguila Interceptor after using the die to make a deep hollow point.
A CCI SV taken to the extreme:
Ah. It was the Paco die. Ingenious little tool, though smacking rimfire cases on the nose was a bit unnerving at first. 
Ah. It was the Paco die. Ingenious little tool, though smacking rimfire cases on the nose was a bit unnerving at first.
Agreed.
It sure would be cool to have a press operated die with that nose punch instead of the hammer whack.
The Neal Waltz die that I have fits into a press so you can get consistency. I use it in a handheld Lee press:
Amazon.com : LEE PRECISION 90685 Cast Iron Reloading Hand Press Only (Red) : Gunsmithing Tools And Accessories : Sports & Outdoors
Amazon.com : LEE PRECISION 90685 Cast Iron Reloading Hand Press Only (Red) : Gunsmithing Tools And Accessories : Sports & Outdoors
www.amazon.com
Hey Guys:
Probably going to cancel the capability testing/filming for this weekend. I'm now of the opinion I really need to establish an accuracy baseline with a variety of factory rounds in my test bolt gun. Then I'm going to test my ammo at normal velocities (1250 fps or less) with and without the sabot. I never did this and don't want to beating my head against the wall in the remote chance its the rifle.
I also found an issue with the heel not forming/flowing flat due to trapped air. I have a manual work around for not to get it very close. While I don't think this is a problem, want to rule it out. If I can, I'll take a first crack at establishing a BC for the fast stuff. Will try and get my buddy's Anschultz 54 and give that a whirl as well.
Thx.
AZ
Probably going to cancel the capability testing/filming for this weekend. I'm now of the opinion I really need to establish an accuracy baseline with a variety of factory rounds in my test bolt gun. Then I'm going to test my ammo at normal velocities (1250 fps or less) with and without the sabot. I never did this and don't want to beating my head against the wall in the remote chance its the rifle.
I also found an issue with the heel not forming/flowing flat due to trapped air. I have a manual work around for not to get it very close. While I don't think this is a problem, want to rule it out. If I can, I'll take a first crack at establishing a BC for the fast stuff. Will try and get my buddy's Anschultz 54 and give that a whirl as well.
Thx.
AZ
Calculating BC isn't difficult if you have a LabRadar (or 2 chronographs) and a good way to get accurate weather data such as a Kestrel:
The time consuming part is putting all the data into the JBM Ballistic Coefficient (Velocity) online calculator and storing your results. If you have the data from a LabRadar, I wrote some automation to read the values (copied to a text file), submit them online, and store the results. What took me 2 hours manually, the automation did in 15 minutes.
The time consuming part is putting all the data into the JBM Ballistic Coefficient (Velocity) online calculator and storing your results. If you have the data from a LabRadar, I wrote some automation to read the values (copied to a text file), submit them online, and store the results. What took me 2 hours manually, the automation did in 15 minutes.
Latest update:
While I was unable to establish baseline testing with multiple rifles, I did get a start on an accuracy baseline for my own test rifle. In addition, I did identify some inconsistencies in my swaging process that have now been addressed. Version 2a is now complete. Two versions have been produced. Got side-tracked making a couple hundred rounds earmarked for GDS customer evaluations, but that is also now complete.
I intend to complete my next round of testing this weekend , assuming the winds die down. Pretty insane this time of year in AZ! I'm excited to finish up what I'll call Version 2b and produce a capabilities video I promised a few weeks ago.
Almost there. Stay tuned!
AZ
While I was unable to establish baseline testing with multiple rifles, I did get a start on an accuracy baseline for my own test rifle. In addition, I did identify some inconsistencies in my swaging process that have now been addressed. Version 2a is now complete. Two versions have been produced. Got side-tracked making a couple hundred rounds earmarked for GDS customer evaluations, but that is also now complete.
I intend to complete my next round of testing this weekend , assuming the winds die down. Pretty insane this time of year in AZ! I'm excited to finish up what I'll call Version 2b and produce a capabilities video I promised a few weeks ago.
Almost there. Stay tuned!
AZ
D
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Had a CMP Kimber that was a fucking armored tank.
That's a Model 84, correct?
I'm taking the day off tomorrow to:
a) Finish up my Savage B22 accuracy baseline.
b) Test rounds without sabot ( both normal and higher velocity).
c) Sight in and test with my buds Anschultz model 54.
Got side tracked with personal shit, taxes and Easter. Had a friend test the normal velocity stuff (1290 fps) out of his suppressed 22lr. No fictional issues whatsoever. I will be making him some subsonic loads to test next opportunity. I did however find a problem with my crimping. It was identified with the Anschultz while just chamber testing. It jams the dam bullets into the rifling! Have to go to a smaller collet crimp die and machine a tweak to it. Should not be a problem going forward.
Looking forward to some relaxation tomorrow. Wind should be manageable I hope.
a) Finish up my Savage B22 accuracy baseline.
b) Test rounds without sabot ( both normal and higher velocity).
c) Sight in and test with my buds Anschultz model 54.
Got side tracked with personal shit, taxes and Easter. Had a friend test the normal velocity stuff (1290 fps) out of his suppressed 22lr. No fictional issues whatsoever. I will be making him some subsonic loads to test next opportunity. I did however find a problem with my crimping. It was identified with the Anschultz while just chamber testing. It jams the dam bullets into the rifling! Have to go to a smaller collet crimp die and machine a tweak to it. Should not be a problem going forward.
Looking forward to some relaxation tomorrow. Wind should be manageable I hope.
