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Interesting even tho it comes from a atheist, leftist point of view.
It is unpossible to bag on atheists and leftists enough.
I said its made from that world view. It stood out to me.
I have no problem with atheists as long as they are civil, treat others with respect, and use reason. God can deal with them when he decides to.
Leftards are a different story.
In studies from one end of the spectrum (having read the Holy Bible with my mother a few summers in a row when i was a teenager) to reading the opinions and watching the debates of leading atheists, including Christopher Hitchens (RIP) and others, there is one big thing lacking.
I know their signature ploy is to say to a believer in God, "you reject the gods of all these other religions and beliefs. So do I. I just reject one more than you."
Where they are weakest is in morals and good and bad. They have no explanation for it. If survival goes to the victor in battle, then there is no reason to behave well. How to explain where moral behavior comes from? We must have good and bad, standards. And selfish gene doesn't mean anything.
I think most times, the drive to believe in atheism is to justify one's immoral or bad behavior by saying that there is no god or reason or code of conduct. As a priest once said, if nothing is a sin anymore, then there is no need for forgiveness or redemption.
IMHO, most atheists get that way for other reasons. I became on for awhile in my teens, then found Christ at about 21.
-Having religion shoved down their throat at an early age
-Watching 'religious people' be sorry assed mofo's all week then get dressed up for church thinking it hides their filth
-Serious trauma that makes one go WTF, or seeing a plane load of religious people go down in flames.
For me it was kind of a combination of the above. And a lot of pain that I didnt even know I had. I kind of reached the point of "If this is what ods got for me I dont need it, I can fuck things up myself.
i really don't care what mechanism they believe drives my opinions.
pedos are bad
child mutilation is bad
mass unchecked migrations is bad
proxy war for profit is bad
killing babies because you're irresponsible is bad
grooming kids in school is bad
pedos are bad
child mutilation is bad
mass unchecked migrations is bad
proxy war for profit is bad
killing babies because you're irresponsible is bad
grooming kids in school is bad
It’s weird to me that any scientific discussion here often turns into some religious discussion. The video I posted is an interesting analysis about human behavior online, how we tend to silo ourselves off from ideas we don’t like, and how online group behavior does not mirror physical group behavior. But rock on, I guess, holy rollers.
Who funds Ground?
R
R
I also believe ego plays a huge role. Its always the uber educated that cant believe there is something out there smarter and more powerful then themselves. Most hard core atheist ive met always ooze arrogance. Quit a few seem to go out of their way to shit on religion when it didn't involve them at all.
We're (mostly) not 'Holy Rollers' though I do see an element of that here.
We, or most of us I opine, See higher Truth (not religion) as an explanation when psychology, biology, sociology, or the like reach the limit of their ability to answer questions. I dont believe in pushing it, just laying it out there for consideration and conversation. Immanuel Kant in A Critique of Pure Reason reached the same conclusion after 600 pages of scientific analysis. Reason and Logic, the basis for all science. will only take you so far, at some point one must make a bridging leap of some sort. Not for the weak of mind but an excellent if long read and highly recommended.
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Critique_of_Pure_ReasonCritique of Pure Reason - Wikipedia
A book by Immanuel Kant that seeks to determine the limits and scope of metaphysics. It argues for the possibility of a priori knowledge, the distinction between analytic and synthetic judgments, and the nature of space and time. It influenced German idealism and modern philosophy.- Original title: Critik .mw-parser-output .noitalic{font-style:normal}ᵃ der reinen Vernunft
- Published: 1781
- Pages: 856 (first German edition)
- Author: Immanuel Kant
- Videos
Nah, go ahead, call me a Holy Roller. It would be wrong but hey, if someone has to start slinging diminutive nicknames, go right ahead. That only shows the weakness of the argument. It's an ad hominem. When the debater cannot adequately address the question or point in a discussion, he or she or it resorts to statements meant to discredit the opponent.
So, yeah, calling someone a holy roller does not win points in a discussion.
So, yeah, calling someone a holy roller does not win points in a discussion.
Evolution begins with death and ends with death.
Creation begins with life and ends with life.
Creation begins with life and ends with life.
Hitchens thoroughly and at length explains humant morality in many of his debates. He also explains in detail why he believes religion undermines morality, also in great detail. You will have no trouble searching his name and that question on youtube and getting his answer among many other’s opinions on the topic.
Havent read it but I probably agree. Religion is poison, avoid it.
Truth, which leads to understanding and wisdom, on the other hand, is to be sought over and above all.
Proverbs 4:5-9
King James Version
5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.
7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
8 Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.
9 She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.
I'm going to avoid the religious aspects of this as I perceive the breakdown in this thread already occurring. However, you bring up a point that I think is near universal in all debates we have here and everywhere else: the incongruity of world views. Those who believe, regardless of their faith (and this includes atheists) have a natural default to their world view. That can be in opposition to what others think, and everyone disagrees with someone on some level. I think your overall statement is correct, and it is part of being human. The thoughts and beliefs that provide each of us a way to make sense of what goes on around us and give us comfort are so closely guarded because they are our very identity, and are such at a foundational level. Everything we think is based upon that foundation. This may be the reason for what you are seeing. No doubt that emotional maturity from all sides plays a role as well.
Can we all get along in the world? I would like to think so (except for those who do outright evil, they have to go), but can we all agree on perspectives, religious or otherwise? Not on your life.
Carl Sagan, may blessings be upon his name, once said something to the effect of: “we shouldn’t find truth in comfort, but instead find comfort in the truth, yet that goes against our natural human wiring and takes tremendous effort to overcome.”
Well said. Trouble is, that evil is resident somewhere in mankind. Whether its from a fall in the Garden, or the reptilian brain (If you cant eat it, or fuck it, run.), its there. Destroy all the ones doing evil today, and they'll be back tomorrow, or someone just like them. Its called 'human nature'. Since it seems to offend Doggy and lights his little meter, LOL, I'll stop there but if it offends him, encourage him to engage 'Ignore Button'.
What did I just say?
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Havent read it but I probably agree. Religion is poison, avoid it.
Truth, which leads to understanding and wisdom, on the other hand, is to be sought over and above all.
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Blessings? Sounds religious to me....not just irony, but straight out hypocrisy
Its not hypocrisy, he was poking you, and you bit.What did I just say?
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Havent read it but I probably agree. Religion is poison, avoid it.
Truth, which leads to understanding and wisdom, on the other hand, is to be sought over and above all.
==================================================
Blessings? Sounds religious to me....not just irony, but straight out hypocrisy
I can probably count on one hand the actual atheists I've ever met. I've met agnostics, but very few real atheists, because atheism actually requires belief. 99% of atheists do believe in God, and they're angry with him and his plan. They've turned away and to the world. Christianity has some interesting things to say about humanism and worship of the world.
You don't have to sacrifice to Moloch, or draw pentagrams to worship Satan. Worshiping the world is the same thing.
You don't have to sacrifice to Moloch, or draw pentagrams to worship Satan. Worshiping the world is the same thing.
I attended church from the time of conception until I was old enough to go my own way. If the doors were open my mother, brother and I were there. My father was off work a half day every other Sunday. That was the only time he attended.
About age 15 I drifted away and tried very hard to convince myself there was no God. Hung out with other naysayers, read a bit about atheism, but never could bring myself to believe He does not exist. Finally found my way back.
I am convinced without the teachings of my mother, father and a number of very patient Sunday school teachers, I would have been dead or in prison by 25.
I think there could be a god, a creator. I just don’t believe in a personal god that plays an active role in each individuals life. If one exists, it surely doesn’t take human beings into consideration….at all.
Religion is also nothing more than a money and power grab. Always has been. Always will be. A control mechanism much like gov’t and throughout history much of the time one in the same.
Religion is also nothing more than a money and power grab. Always has been. Always will be. A control mechanism much like gov’t and throughout history much of the time one in the same.
Perhaps the reality we share isn't the most important one there is? Perhaps our direct perception of that reality isn't all there is either...?
As there can be no courage without fear, so too can there be no faith without doubt and mystery. If you "know" then that isn't faith.
I find that throughout the Bible the one, omniscient God is not without a sense of cosmic irony. You cannot hear unless you are listening, and when you start listening you start realizing that while he may not speak to you in sound waves, he is constantly converging situations and giving us opportunities to live his word.
As there can be no courage without fear, so too can there be no faith without doubt and mystery. If you "know" then that isn't faith.
I find that throughout the Bible the one, omniscient God is not without a sense of cosmic irony. You cannot hear unless you are listening, and when you start listening you start realizing that while he may not speak to you in sound waves, he is constantly converging situations and giving us opportunities to live his word.
Thats why most/many of our Founders Thought of themselves as Deists.
Im personally kind of split on the subject. For a large part I tend to agree, but I have seen in my own life that personal intervention. I could tell you about not one, but two, instances, that without some sort of intervention, divine or not, I wouldnt be typing this.
Where I run into problems is when I hear something like this..."I was late for my flight. It crashed and everybody died. God saved me." Well Bubba, or Bubbette, what about the other 237 souls on board, 90% of the fellow Christians who died. Did God not protect them or are you special?" Sometimes its just the luck of the draw. You got a Ace, they got the deuce of clubs.
Beautifully stated, brother.Perhaps the reality we share isn't the most important one there is? Perhaps our direct perception of that reality isn't all there is either...?
As there can be no courage without fear, so too can there be no faith without doubt and mystery. If you "know" then that isn't faith.
I find that throughout the Bible the one, omniscient God is not without a sense of cosmic irony. You cannot hear unless you are listening, and when you start listening you start realizing that while he may not speak to you in sound waves, he is constantly converging situations and giving us opportunities to live his word.
Perhaps the reality we share isn't the most important one there is? Perhaps our direct perception of that reality isn't all there is either...?
As there can be no courage without fear, so too can there be no faith without doubt and mystery. If you "know" then that isn't faith.
I find that throughout the Bible the one, omniscient God is not without a sense of cosmic irony. You cannot hear unless you are listening, and when you start listening you start realizing that while he may not speak to you in sound waves, he is constantly converging situations and giving us opportunities to live his word.
Your last statement claims death is bad. If we believe as Christians you being late missed a opportunity to go home or could mean you still have work here to do. We dont know or understand the other side
I can see how you'd draw that conclusion but I never said that. I look forward to transitioning out of this world. I have an interesting story on that as well.
when I was about 25 my grandmother died. I felt all this grief start to well up, so stepped outside for a breath of air. Then I saw granny's torso surrounded by a golden glow as she spoke to me saying "Dont grieve, its so much better here, dont grieve.' Then the vision faded. I
ve never feared death since that moment.
George Fox, founder of the Quakers said to one of his followers, "The only way God has to touch the world is through our hands."
And I invite you to reread my words. And let me clarify. Not only have I read his books, I have watched on YT his debates. Several them with several other people in various places.
Hitchens did not prove a thing other than men are shit, which is evident. Again, there is no reason for morality in evolution. And I have seen jumps in logic, as well. I think some stories are allegory to teach something. And there can inconsistencies in scripture. I also think there is validity in the books of the Apocrypha. Also the Scrolls at Nag Hammadi, which seem to show that Jesus escaped from Jerusalem. Unproven now and it is one way to make sense of the stories in the book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" and the follow-up, "The Messianic Legacy."
None of which disproves God.
And what trips up most atheists to the point that the ad hominems pour forth (T minus 12 minutes and counting) is the flagella of a bacterium. They are driving by a structure that is a motor. And it is not a case of a cog accidentally glued itself to a lever and stayed like that for a billion years until something else banged into it. It is an irreducible complexity. That is, it is a structure that cannot happen by happenstance.
You know what makes me grin? Someone who will deny creation and yet believe in the Big Bang. So, everything came from nothing. Yeah, I know, "singularity." Where did the singularity come from? Now who is operating on faith?
I think your last paragraph would be a mischaracterization of their position. The big bang just happens to be as far back as one can look. I think the physicists would say that it was a beginning, not the beginning.
Regarding complexity. However complex our world is, the supernatural being thats been proposed is infinitely more complex.
One of his arguments is that human beings are social creatures. Without getting along and working together, the species wouldn’t survive. Hard to argue that point.
I believe a man that is decent on his on accord has better morals than one who is decent only because he fears the wrath of some vengeful god he pretends to know the will of. Both can be equally good men in the end although one comes to the conclusion rationally because he can relate with and understand that treating others like he would like to be treated is a good thing. No threats from above needed.
And I am not saying the big bang did not happen. Evidence strongly points to it, the "Law" of Entropy would seem to agree and squirtenly, physics matches that with energy moving from hot to cold.
So, we don't know what happened before and then, all of a sudden, kaboom. Whoop, there it is! Not a lot of difference, logistically, from "In the beginning, was the word. And the word was God.
So, let me see you peacefully coexist with cops. I get it, people acting right with each other helps things go along. And some people actually do the right thing because they desire to do so. Not everyone is operating out of fear.
That being said, fear is a strong motivator. And people left to their own devices are cruel to each other.
You and I simply have different takes from it. You may think man can be divine, or without need of God. On that, I do disagree.
Don’t bring this “profession” into an argument of morality. These men force the will of arguably the most disgusting people walking the earth, politicians, all for a paycheck and a pension. Very few things are further from morality than this. Let’s stick to one topic of debate for now.
What about the other half of my post that you didn’t quote?
A lot of good and points being made here. I've pondered and studied this stuff in many forms and varieties for some 50 years.
What is difficult for most/all to conceive of is 'Eternal or infinite". No beginning, no end. Our minds just cant truly grasp that so we fill in with human concepts which we can understand. We give God human attributes like 'Wrathful-angry-vengeful-.
"And the word was God"
When we get down to what Jesus of Nazareth had to say about it we find simply "God is Love". So before the beginning, after the end, of all created things, Love is. But thats a love beyond that which we generally conceive of, a love that created us in its own image with eternal spirits, yet will allow us to destroy ourselves and our world, then bring us home. As I believe it was you, rRon, said, a lot of it si parables and stories to illustrate those concepts. Think of the story of the prodigal son.
What is difficult for most/all to conceive of is 'Eternal or infinite". No beginning, no end. Our minds just cant truly grasp that so we fill in with human concepts which we can understand. We give God human attributes like 'Wrathful-angry-vengeful-.
"And the word was God"
When we get down to what Jesus of Nazareth had to say about it we find simply "God is Love". So before the beginning, after the end, of all created things, Love is. But thats a love beyond that which we generally conceive of, a love that created us in its own image with eternal spirits, yet will allow us to destroy ourselves and our world, then bring us home. As I believe it was you, rRon, said, a lot of it si parables and stories to illustrate those concepts. Think of the story of the prodigal son.
This is correct. In order for intelligent design to be solid the prerequisite for a more complex designer from a perspective of thought and ability than the thing created is required. Infinitely more complex IMO is true, regardless of the nature of the big bang, uni/multiverse, etc. The more complex, the more complex designer is required. The stepper motor on the flagellum is a great example; those things were coursing in our veins long before we came up with the idea of gears - we didn't created motors, we discovered how to craft them. Then we discovered them already resident within ourselves.
I would disagree. God, who/which is Love, is the simplest of concepts. Its jsut that we have fubar'd this whole thing and cant see the forest for the trees.
Then from an intelligent designer point of view, we disagree, which is fine. From a “God is love” point of view, I don’t disagree, but His love cannot be held in exclusion of His justice - and His grace and mercy. His infinite nature requires this conclusion, unless you an are presupposing that His infinite love is infinitely neutral, which means His justice is nonexistent. Which logically would mean there is no hell, which would go contrary to even those religions that each of may not agree with. And that brings up another question: can love exist without justice? Stated another way that is more direct: can Epstein and Hitler be in heaven with the children they abused and killed? If God is neutral in all aspects of justice then that means He had no standard and that Scripture is untrue. I have to reject that. Perhaps I misread what you were saying?
I don’t know how just and merciful the god you guys describe is. Millions of children are born and die every year across the world. Many suffering with disease and starvation. Many dying at birth. Most of these haven’t gotten the chance to learn of this god which means they get to burn in hell with murders, child molestors, and the like. Doesn’t sound just or merciful to me. Vengeful perhaps. Spiteful maybe?
Man has been around far longer than the current crop of man made religions. What about all those that come before your religion of choice was even known? They in hell as well?
What about those that are of one of the other two major world religions. Oh nevermind, they have the wrong religion and will surely burn in hell because of it. Men women and children. Never had a chance with your loving and caring god.
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Par for the course.
Even though the bible teaches that people can't save each other, people can only save themselves and even though it teaches others are not yours to judge, they will be judged by god and even more about tolerance and leaving the "wicked" to be "wicked".
Often there are people who claim to be religious and walk the path of Jesus but are of weak character or maybe their faith isn't as strong as it should be so they take every opportunity to lash out at "sinners" and "unbelievers" ... virtue signalling ... I'm better than you because I believe ... quite boastful really.
What a person is willing to believe without proof is all about perspective and teachings.
Personally I don't *believe* in god but I also don't *believe* in the big bang because I don't see proof for either. Could they be tangled together? Sure, but I still don't see proof.
Someone said it right earlier, atheism is a form of religion.
Some people still believe the earth is flat even though it's not that hard to prove it isn't. This is a special category that goes beyond religion or science.
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