Subsonic 5.56? With 10 pistol powders with no load data? Just an experiment...

[semperfireloading]

Somebody told me they wanted to make subsonic 5.56 AR15 rounds for varmints with supressor. I did not use suppressor, and I had zero load data. People refer to trailboss, titegroup, and clays for subsonic AR15 loads. Honestly, all 3 of those powders blow. Terrible. So I picked 10 powders that were popular made guesses, loaded up some precision loads, got the cotton balls and started shooting.

Pistol Powders in 5.56 going for Subsonic

I test fired some rounds with no cotton, and ES was huge, and SD sucked. No wonder. 3-5 grains in a 5.56 case is like so little, its crazy. And when you put round in chamber parallel with ground, the powder, in no way, can ignite consistently. So no wonder. I put the cotton in, and standard deviations of "1" across 5 shots using N330 which surprised me. Also got SD of 1.x using 3N38. I only shot 3 round groups, but some of the groups were lights out accurate as good as anything in an AR15.

I am going back to try some 95 grain single loads next time, maybe some 77 and a ladder test using N330 and 55 grain bullets.

Pistol Powder in 5.56

Subsonic 5.56 Pistol Powders

natoreloading.com

Fun test. The most fun was all the reloaders that told me I would blow my face off and how dangerous this way. Not even the 13.5 grains of Blue Dot cycled the gun and was still lower pressure than normal commercial loads. I have to try 14.5, or 15.

 

[Yondering]

I see a large collection of data, but you don't seem to really understand what you're doing or what powders and bullet weights are right for the application. For example you say Trailboss blows, (why do you think so?) and then comment how a small amount of pistol powder in a case causes large ES. Well yeah, of course it does, and that's exactly what Trailboss was made for. It's also why Clays is good in the right applications, and why both of those powders are often used for subsonic rifle loads.

If you're surprised that Blue Dot didn't cycle an AR (or even think it's worth commenting on), you really should back up and learn a little more about what you're doing and how to go about it.

Do you at least know to work the load down for subsonics, not up? If you don't, sooner or later you will stick a bullet in the barrel when you guess at a charge weight that's a little too low.

 

[redbullitt]

Trailboss ought to do a good job.

It's made nice subs in 223, 300blk, 30 30, 3006, 308 and a bunch of others for me.

Might just take some tweaking?

 

[Jonathan Swift]

Trail boss is freaking amazing

 

[semperfireloading]

I don't like trailboss because it has "narrow" versatility. For example, 9MM it doesn't work, and also, you should not compress trailboss. Very limited use. If versatility is why you like certain powders, like why people like UNIQUE for example, then by that measure, objectively, Trailboss is the worst pistol powder you can buy. Versatility 1/10. Unique? 10/10.

BUT, if you won't load anything except following manufacturer load data, than Trailboss is great, and I understand that, for those folks. As you can see, I could care less about load data from manufacturers so that doesn't matter to me. I make my own like I just did. I never did that test before, that was first time out with pistol powders in 5.56 cases. So now, I learned what charges will get me subsonic with prettty much any pistol powder, since the 10 powder sampling covers almost the entire range with comparable powders.

Also, the Blue dot going UP, had nothing to do with subsonic. I wanted to see how linear the progression of velocity was until it cycled the gun. I did not go high enough.

subsonic in 5.56 is almost useless as you guys know. I am not saying its good. I just tested some stuff and shared. I was just sharing. I am allowed to say I don't like trailboss right? Or has the Democrat party taken over reloading too and I can't say that or have an opinion. Maybe next time, you tell me what is OK to like and not like. And also tell me what to buy and how much to pay for it. I need help. Save me.

 

[MtnCreek]

A pistol powder will go over pressure long before making enough gas to op the action.

 

[supercorndogs]

I do 22 caliber subsonic the easy way. I buy 22LR.

 

[GrantA]

I've used trailboss with excellent results. I used Barnes matchburners, I think 85gr. I don't think you'll achieve subsonic 5.56 loads that will cycle an AR15. These were run in a Scar which was great with the left side charging handle. Excellent critter getter!

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I am allowed to say I don't like trailboss right? Or has the Democrat party taken over reloading too and I can't say that or have an opinion.

You're allowed to have an opinion, but 1) explain it and support it, 2) be prepared for people to disagree, especially when you're going off the reservation using cotton to fill your 556 case because pistol powders won't light properly - see point 1. Take this ad hominem argument elsewhere.

Also, you don't need published load data for trail boss. IMR published a procedure for finding max load in all cartridges.
" 1) Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your maximum load. Pressures will be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use!
2) Take 70% of this powder charge weight (multiply the maximum load from step 1 by .7), and that is your starting load. "

 

[towerofpower93]

You also only have three, maybe four, subsonic loads on that chart. Start moving the velocities for all your powder/bullet combos to 1,100fps or lower and I suspect you'll see your ES open up and your accuracy loosen up a bit. This is based on my own experience playing around with 55gr subs in 5.7x28.

In that instance I didn't have to deal with the drastic case under fill you're experiencing, but the variation was enough to give 100fps extreme spreads with only five shot groups.

 

[semperfireloading]

Office T-Rex, lets meet up, I want to listen to you teach me some more about how to reload. Or I will teach you. Where you at, can we meet this weekend? What club do you belong to? I travel a lot, we can schedule a time and place. What we can do is, you load up 20 of your trailboss loads, and I will load up some say, N330. We can shoot a target, measure SD, ES, MOA. And I think what you will find, is trailboss cannot compete in accuracy or consistency.

 

[Yondering]

Office T-Rex, lets meet up, I want to listen to you teach me some more about how to reload. Or I will teach you. Where you at, can we meet this weekend? What club do you belong to? I travel a lot, we can schedule a time and place. What we can do is, you load up 20 of your trailboss loads, and I will load up some say, N330. We can shoot a target, measure SD, ES, MOA. And I think what you will find, is trailboss cannot compete in accuracy or consistency.

Wow.

A wise man knows to shut up when he doesn't know what he's talking about. You've been going out of your way to prove you're not that man. We get the point by now, I think.

It's sad to see someone so arrogant that they can't step back and see how much more there is to learn about a topic, because they're so focused on "proving" that they're smarter than everyone else. Your first post started that way and you've continued that theme; the only thing you've proven to the rest of us is that you know very little about subsonic loads or how to build them effectively. There's a big gap between "wanting to learn" and " something to prove", and you're on the wrong side of that gap. You should re-consider why you're here on this forum; you're not going to get the validation you're looking for this way.

About the only accurate thing you stumbled on here is that Blue Dot is a good powder for reduced mid-velocity loads in the 223. But others here could have told you that as well if you'd asked.

 

[softcock]

Somebody told me they wanted to make subsonic 5.56 AR15 rounds for varmints with supressor. I did not use suppressor, and I had zero load data. People refer to trailboss, titegroup, and clays for subsonic AR15 loads. Honestly, all 3 of those powders blow. Terrible. So I picked 10 powders that were popular made guesses, loaded up some precision loads, got the cotton balls and started shooting.

Pistol Powders in 5.56 going for Subsonic

I test fired some rounds with no cotton, and ES was huge, and SD sucked. No wonder. 3-5 grains in a 5.56 case is like so little, its crazy. And when you put round in chamber parallel with ground, the powder, in no way, can ignite consistently. So no wonder. I put the cotton in, and standard deviations of "1" across 5 shots using N330 which surprised me. Also got SD of 1.x using 3N38. I only shot 3 round groups, but some of the groups were lights out accurate as good as anything in an AR15.

I am going back to try some 95 grain single loads next time, maybe some 77 and a ladder test using N330 and 55 grain bullets.

Pistol Powder in 5.56

Subsonic 5.56 Pistol Powders

natoreloading.com

Fun test. The most fun was all the reloaders that told me I would blow my face off and how dangerous this way. Not even the 13.5 grains of Blue Dot cycled the gun and was still lower pressure than normal commercial loads. I have to try 14.5, or 15.

-
Not N-330 your using ..but
N-320 is my goto powder for subsonic in 30-223/BLK . 4.4 grn. and 110 HP speer . ( It wont cycle AR ) . but is the quietest load you will ever shoot out of boltaction and suppressed in this Cal . The gas produced is just minimal and suppressor just eats it up with volume room to spare .
-

 

[264win]

-
Not N-330 your using ..but
N-320 is my goto powder for subsonic in 30-223/BLK . 4.4 grn. and 110 HP speer . ( It wont cycle AR ) . but is the quietest load you will ever shoot out of boltaction and suppressed in this Cal . The gas produced is just minimal and suppressor just eats it up with volume room to spare .
-

would you mind adding your primer and case filler if any ?
This type of load is next on my list to try

 

[softcock]

no filler, and just cci 450's .
.

 

[Yondering]

-
Not N-330 your using ..but
N-320 is my goto powder for subsonic in 30-223/BLK . 4.4 grn. and 110 HP speer . ( It wont cycle AR ) . but is the quietest load you will ever shoot out of boltaction and suppressed in this Cal . The gas produced is just minimal and suppressor just eats it up with volume room to spare .
-

The cool thing about a load like this (I use Clays or Green Dot for essentially the same effect) is that you can use it in an AR and it won’t cycle the action, for a much quieter load than loads that do. This pairs well with a side charging setup to easily (and quietly) cycle the bolt manually.

I’ve found Green Dot to be one of the best powders for tone of suppressed shots in loads like this and heavy subsonic 9mm. It’s an unusual choice, but a lot of other powders produce a sharper sound, more of a snap than the dull thud of GD.

 

[semperfireloading]

Wow.

A wise man knows to shut up when he doesn't know what he's talking about. You've been going out of your way to prove you're not that man. We get the point by now, I think.

It's sad to see someone so arrogant that they can't step back and see how much more there is to learn about a topic, because they're so focused on "proving" that they're smarter than everyone else. Your first post started that way and you've continued that theme; the only thing you've proven to the rest of us is that you know very little about subsonic loads or how to build them effectively. There's a big gap between "wanting to learn" and " something to prove", and you're on the wrong side of that gap. You should re-consider why you're here on this forum; you're not going to get the validation you're looking for this way.

About the only accurate thing you stumbled on here is that Blue Dot is a good powder for reduced mid-velocity loads in the 223. But others here could have told you that as well if you'd asked.

Big picture, no need to get upset, we should be friendly, because the other side hates us both. I wish you well, peace be to you.

 

[softcock]

Just Adding / some extra caution needs to be taken . especially when I used the example of the .30x221/BLKout and the fast pistol powder on subsonic loads.
Using that N-320 . ( for me ) I would never go much higher on the bullet weight than using 90 or 110 Grain with 4.4 grn of N-320
For subs. loads, the 30-221/300blk really is different animal than .556 . the .30 cal x45 is going to be more forgiving with the fast pistol powder over a .223 load with the same fast powder . It not just that the case is shorter on the .30 blackout, but .30 cal. bore on the BLK is going to build far less hydraulic pressure when shoving a bullet out and down it's bigger bore, than a smaller .224 Bore Diam. when igniting off the fast burn pistol powders .
.