Suppressors Subsonic Suppressed Hunting Rifle

quickdraw03

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There is a bill introduced in the NC legislature that would legalize hunting with suppressed firearms. I’m interested in acquiring a rifle, preferably a bolt action, that accurately shoots subsonic ammunition suitable for big game hunting (whitetail deer). I want something subsonic to realize the full benefits of a suppressor, and also I think it would be fun to shoot. I want the rifle to be accurate at 100 yards, but preferably 200. I would not plan to take an animal past 100yds due to trajectory, and anticipate most shots between 50-75yds. I would prefer to be able to use cast bullets, because they are often affordable and can be readily made with softer alloys to expand at subsonic velocities. I reload and have access to a chronograph, so I’m not dependent on factory ammo.

I’ve done a little research on calibers, but I would really appreciate the insights and experiences of others. One thing I would note is that most of these rifles have roughly the same entry cost ~$650 for Remington 700 SPS Tacticals and Ruger 77/357 / 77/44. Here are the observations that I’ve been able to compile.

300 Blackout
Pros:
-Uses readily available components – 30 caliber bullets and plentiful brass that can be made from 223
-Factory loaded subsonics (different bullets might be better for hunting than what manufacturers load)
-Several factory made bolt guns
-Lots of loading data

Cons:
-I’ve read that the cartridge has issues with constant velocities (high ES and SD), which limits longer range accuracy
-I’ve also read that many bolt guns have trouble feeding and that many are fine
- Fewer commercially available heavyweight cast bullets than other calibers

308 Winchester – Subsonic
Pros:
-A personal favorite caliber with readily available components that I already load for
-Some published subsonic loans
-More rifles available than you can pick from
-Extremely useful with supersonic loads
- Could be made into a versatile rifle with many other uses

Cons:
-Factory rifles would generally have too slow of a twist to stabilize bullets
-For ideal performance, most factory rifles would need to be re-barreled to a 1 in 8 or 1 in 7 twist, which significantly drives up the acquisition price (how well would 1-10 work?)
-Not a lot of commercially available heavyweight cast bullets (plenty of 220 gr RN jacketed around)
-What subsonic ammo is factory loaded is generally expensive

357 Mag – Subsonic (Ruger 77/357)
Pros:
-Bigger bullet than 30 caliber choices
- Lots of loading data
-Reloading components easy to find and inexpensive
-Common ammunition with a handgun
-Supersonic loads also useful

Cons:
-Must handload all subsonic loads other than very lightweight 38 spl
-Heavy bullets are generally intended for 35 Remington / 35 Whelen and may require 38 Special brass to chamber

44 Mag – Subsonic (Ruger 77/44)
Pros:
-Biggest bullet of anything suppressible with a pistol can (I would think SWR Octane 45 here)
-Lots of loading data
-Reloading components easy to find and inexpensive
-Common ammunition with a handgun
-Supersonic loads can be very useful
-Easiest caliber to obtain heavy weight bullets

Cons:
-Must handload all subsonic loads other than very lightweight 44 spl
 
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pinkhair

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Hunting with a subsonic rifle can be done, but at the ranges you're thinking (200 yards) you will be shooting the bullet at a huge arc which makes bullet placement very difficult. I'd recommend just using supersonic loads it'll still be quiet and will have the added benefit of lethality for clean kills. Just my .02
 

bengineer

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A supersonic bullet isn't necessary to kill game, any more than a supersonic arrow is necessary.

Bullet placement is almost always key, especially on large game species. And the meat of my experience and comment: If you intend to use subsonic bullets for game, you will need to rethink your range. The trajectory curve of a subsonic projectile, whether 22cal or .430" is more like the shape of a rainbow than anything resembling what you can use out to 200 yards.

Bigger is almost always better, when it comes to a velocity limit. A 16" twist in a 77/44 barrel will get you where you want to be. I have used a Tikka T3 in 308 with a 16" barrel (factory barrel cut down) on seven bison with subs and a can. It worked. Is it a 100 yard combo? Hell no.
 

RFtinkerer

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I would seriously reconsider subsonic loads, personally. There was a video somewhere linked where an anethesiologist describes wounds created by handgun and rifle loads. With a subsonic round, like 300 BLK, you have similar powers and similar weighted bullets to handgun loads. 500 ft-lbs and less energy. Note the large difference in temporary and permanent cavities created by the respective handgun and rifle loads.

Death is done by bleed out. You need to tear blood vessels, heart, etc., to get bleed out as fast as possible. Deer also may be shocked by the power of the hit and lay down right on sight. Sometimes not, though, I've seen my deer walk off, not knowing they were dead, and I've found their lungs shredded by my bullets. In all instances, even a described DRT, the lungs were shredded and full of blood, indicating their heart was beating long enough to pump a great volume of blood out of their circulatory system.

There is an oft-quoted spec of minimum 1000 ft-lbs of energy to substantiate rifle use in hunting deer. Not a hard and fast rule, by any means, but there it is. It is entirely possible to kill with any round, even a 22 lr. But don't we owe it to our prey to make a quick death? Doesn't the meat taste worse with the andrenaline pumped into the blood? I say yes, we should kill quickly.

Also, aiming is harder, as people have said with the low velocity. You don't want that in hunting. So save the subsonic rounds for fun at the range, smiling as you hear the click of the action, a whoosh of the bullet, the clang of steel, and not much else. Use supersonic in hunting, as powerful as you can get (within reason, of course--not 50 BMG!) IMO. Supersonic still sounds like a unsuppressed 22, in a way, so it's quiet enough to justify, and won't wake the neighbors.
 

bunsen27

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I'm not going to debate the ethical aspects of humane hunting, but I've taken a fair number of whitetail with a .45-90 Sharps and a .54 TC Renegade over the last 20 years with basic lead cast bullets. Both of those are barely supersonic and have always killed quite quickly and on occasion even instantaneously. Granted both are pushing +500gr slugs and hit like a freight train. ;) I wouldn't use a jacketed bullet in a subsonic hunting situation and if you don't believe straight lead will work look at Lehigh Defense's offerings.

Personally I'm setting up a CVA Apex in .300 Blackout because I already have a .30 cal suppressor. If I had a .40 cal suppressor already I'd look at a .357 Maximum or .357 Magnum pushing the heaviest bullet I could get to stabilize.
 

RFtinkerer

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^Okay, those rounds mentioned are pretty large and out of my original scope, like 300 BLK...brings up 458 SOCOM to my mind, though. 600 grain, 1300 ft-lbs of pure subsonic joy. :D Now that would be something. I also don't dismiss the idea of 300 BLK subs killing deer, it can do it well no doubt, just not my personal choice nor necessary IMO. I've actually thought about it with my 30 cal suppressor, but dismissed the idea as needless. I don't need hearing protection for the shot or two with my 26" 308 and the suppressor, even supersonic, so I don't need to rely on my bulky electronic earmuffs for hearing protection. The neighbors won't be disturbed by the suppressed shot, sooo... I don't know. Whatever floats yer boat, I guess.
 

B3dlam

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I have a 700 AAC-SD in .308 I just got to mate up with my 30P-1 it has a 1-10 twist. I have been looking seriously at the LeHigh Subsonic bullets: Display Products They are supposed to be stable out of a 1-10 twist at subsonic velocities and are designed to expand reliably at subsonic speeds. They are expensive bullets especially when you factor in buying a box of 17 cal 20gr 'payload' bullets like the bergers. That being said I dont expect to be shooting dozens of them so maybe 10 max to get sighted in and confirm dope plus 10 or so to get the load dialed in to subsonic speeds then at that point that leaves around 30 rounds to killing deer thats is quite a few years or hunting I would think. I like you have just been researching though I havent had a chance to do any subsonic hunting but everything I have read from people talking abuot the leHigh bullets say they tend to drop animals in their tracks.
 

Geno C.

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    Knowing your distances is the most important thing when I hunt with my whisper. I also almost exclusively shoot head shots. I have yet to have a whitetail take a single step after getting its grey matter disrupted but a bullet no matter the velocity
     

    YTALER

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    I got a 300 blackout for the predator hunting and have no problem killing coyotes with it. If I were to build a gun for whitetails at under 100yds I'd go with 45ACP or a downloaded 44mag simply for better bullet selection. I am from a state with large bodied deer and the 45 ACP kills them dead just as efficiently as a 12 ga slug does.
    I totally agree with balthasar (above) about head shots though when using a 300 blackout. The blkout is also a very versatile cartridge for other than suppressed use.
     

    Heronion

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    If you choose to go .300 BLK, pick up the cheapest .223 Savage action or rifle you can, get a 1/8 twist 16" barrel from any number of suppliers and assemble it that way. Should be able to keep the whole cost to $600.
     

    rmfield

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    I'd go 1:7 on the barrel for subs. That said, I have a 300 BLK AR that I shoot subsonics with, but it would make a terrible hunting rifle for anything over 150 yards or so. I'd have to have a really good reason to be that quiet before I'd consider it for hunting big game.
     

    sic65stang

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    I shoot subsonic out of 2 of my 308 rifles. One is a bone stock remington 700 Varmint barrel and action 1:12 twist. I shoot 180 grain round nose bullets and they stabilize just fine. I can get moa when I do my part, but 1.5 - 3 moa is to be expected. At 200 yards the bullet is going about 850FPS and energy is about 320Ft-lb. I have not shot anything with this load yet, but I expect that with a good hit the bullet would expand just fine and make a good kill. Would it crumple the deer up, probably not, but if you hit it right it would kill it. Shot placement would be key. I doubt it would go very far with a 30 cal hole in its chest.

    With that being said. The drop is drastic. My rifle needs to be dialed up 16 MIN at 100 yards from supersonic loads, and another 17 at 200. Thats 33 min total to get to 200. That is alot of drop. You would have to know your drops from 100 probably every 20 yards to ensure a solid hit.

    The other choices you put out there I think would be tougher to get to 200 than the 308. Good luck
     

    cwinston

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    I've been doing exactly what you are looking to do. Subsonic suppressed hunting 50-75 yds on whitetail deer. Have both a 300 BLK and 308 Ruger Scout rifle (16.5 inch barrel 10 twist). I prefer the Scout rifle for this application, the bolt action is quieter to the shooter, and marginally quieter at 50yds. Look at either Outlaw State Bullets, or Leigh Defence for bullets, both of which perform well at subsonic velocities. Use a chrono and work down a load in your rifle. As stated above, shot placement is extremely important. With an identically equipped buddy in a stand 70 yds away, we have taken 4 deer out of the same herd on multiple occaisions, one to two minutes from start of firing to tagged out. Great for herd management at close range. With proper shot placement, they have run less than 20 yds and go down within seconds of the shot while the rest in the herd are standing there looking around asking each other "What did she have for breakfast?"
     

    Retooferab

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    Here's my 300 Whisper. I got this buck with it. I have used both Lehigh Defense and Outlaw State bullets. Both work great. I shot a small buck this year with 200 grain Lehigh ME and it looked like it was hit with a Weatherby magnum.

    15f7898d.jpg
     
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    SABuzzard

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    I've taken multiple whitetail doe with 200 grain Lehigh ME bullets from a 300 Blk Out H&R Handi rifle as part of a game management program. I limit shots to 100 yards or less. Haven't lost an animal and none have gone more than 50 yards. Shot placement is critical with sub-sonics. You have to be willing to forgo a shot if conditions are not optimal.

    Take a look at Lehigh bullets.
     

    prossound

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    my Savage 10 FCP-K with 1-10 twist stabalizes 208gr A-Max subs very well. through my YHM 7.62Ti can it sounds like a dry fire untill the round strikes the target. it is so quite it makes me giggle like a little girl. what the others are saying about supers is very true. I shot an axis deer with a 168gr super at 155 yards and the impact was twice as loud as the shot.
     

    Tackleberry

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    I have a 77/44 shooting 300gr XTP's. it really packs a punch. Fully suppressed from SRT. Great gun. I also have a 300 whisper on a encore frame and a 300 blackout on a ar platform. I have a buddy who uses a 300 blackout both super and sub on pigs of any size and it worksheets great as well. I have zero issues shooting great groups to 200 yds with subs. I still however do most of my hunting with a direct connect can on other rifles (300wm, 7wsm and 338lm) the super sonics give me as much range as I could ever use without guessing at the elevations of the subs. My 300 is sighted in at 50 yds and it requires 27 MOA to go to 200 yds. You have to be very precise in both yardage and elevation adjustments to hit precisely. I do subs in 25 yds increments on my adjustments. Both are fun top shoot and neither require hearing protection. Super sonics all sound like a 22 mag, doesn't matter the caliber. Have fun!
     

    Handloader

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    I have a John’s Guns 44mag integrally suppressed, 300 Blackout 8.3in a pistol AR, and just picked up a 300 Blackout in a Handi-Rifle single shot made by AAC ($305 shipped to my FFL). They all shoot great. The Handi-Rifle is the quietest with Unique (6grains and a 208 Amax [NOT an AR load!]). I am waiting on some 247g Pb Cast bullets as we speak for the hand-rifle. There is a 0.308 cal. 90g Hornady XTP bullet that is reported to expand well in the subsonic range, I will try that next.

    The 44 has a Pulsar 550 night vision scope, and hits the hardest with a 300g Hornady XTP (tears the largest hole). I can stretch it to 300 yards, but not a yard more (if memory is right, about 57MOA from a hundred yard zero). I think the bullet loses stability after 300 yards and bullet yaw takes over. As the use of a suppressor is against the law in OHIO to hunt with, I am ONLY speculating that one shot hits on varmints that kill my chickens would be VERY effective. I am only speculating that any one of the varmints never went farther than 10 feet after being shot with the subsonic 44. Pass-through is a real issue, so the old adage “know your target and what is beyond your target” is very correct.

    I Keep the Blackout zeroed at 20 yards which has a second zero at 50 yards. This keeps the bullet path within an inch of the crosshair out to about 60 yards. The 247g 0.309 caliber is reported to be marginally stable with a 1:7 twist at subsonic velocity, and supposedly will tumble upon impact. I have yet to verify this.

    Hope this helps….
     

    ROCKer

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    I've shot quite a hand full of whitetails with the 300 blackout. We run 220 SMks subsonic and don't shoot past 150. We zero at 50 and shoot clicks from there. We also shoot high power tactical scopes and make sure we have exact yardage and dope.
     

    pprochnow

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    I was looking into the same thing but decided against it. what I found is animals are confused at the sonic crack. Is sounds like is is coming 90 degrees from the bullet. Also, With my 308 you can actually track the bullet by sound to the deer and call your own shots by sound of impact. It sounds funny, but if you pay attention its true. Sub sonics will be unforgiving for big game. For varmints, subs all the way...
     

    1spot

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    I like the .50 s&w in a single shot rifle with some heavy lead.
     

    Woodrow7

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    I'm interested in using a suppressed 308 for whitetail; will be starting the purchase process soon. I have two 308's: a Remington 700 ADL with the stock 24" barrel, and an M77 with a 26" target barrel. I would like to use subsonic ammo and don't expect to be targeting deer that are more than 50-yds out. Would the differences in the barrels make a significant difference in accuracy at that range when using subsonic?

    While I'm on the subject, I have one additional question: at that range, would it be just as sensible to consider suppressing a 77/357?
     
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    Fungun

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    357 mag isn't subsonic unless you roll your own. 38 spl is and you can shoot that out of the 77/357.

    I have one and just got approved to chop the barrel to 11.5"

    Since the Suppressors you would need to suppress either rifle are different and can't be used on both (unless you pick handgun Supp, I'm sure you could ck with with manufacture to ok 308 subs only) you would have to decide which route to go.


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    Landry308

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    I'm working on a subsonic hunting rig. Encore SBR with 10" 45 Long Colt barrel. Plenty of heavy subsonic factory ammo available. Acutally much larger hole than a 44 mag if you put them side by side. No need to rely on expansion of bullets.
     

    Woodrow7

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    I guess that I kind of see the comparison of the 357 and the 308 within 50 or so yds as six of one, half-dozen of the other...

    For the 308: supers for whitetails, subs for coyotes.
    For the 357: standard 357 mag (such as Buffalo Bore 158- or 180-gr) for whitetails, heavy 38 SPL (likely also BB, 158-gr) on coyotes.

    Plugging everything into a ballistics calculator (18.5" barrel), the 180-grain BB 357 has the required velocity and energy (>1500 fps and >800 ft/lbs) to drop a deer at 125-yds, and the 158-grain is effective to 150-yds; both are approximately flat at 75-yds. I haven't run the numbers for the 38 SPL loads.

    The 308 firing a BB 175-grain Sierra Matchking is flat at twice that distance and lethal up to ~900-yds. I would expect the suppressed report from one of these to be considerably greater than either of the afore-mentioned 357 rounds.

    If anything, the 357 seems the smarter of the two to suppress given that I don't need the bullet to travel very far, and in fact really want don't want it traveling too far past the target after it has passed through.

    Opinions on what you might choose to do given the option of suppressing one vs the other? I don't have the option of doing both right now. If my thinking that a 357 is a sensible round for deer is off-base, then please tell me.
     
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    pprochnow

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    My buddy has taken deer without issue with a win model 94 .357
    I have taken many with a 94 in .44 mag. I like that I recovered all the animals quickly and have found about half of the slugs under the skin on the far side of the animal after smashing bones.
    Sounds like a fun project to me.


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    Wicked Weapons

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    ^Okay, those rounds mentioned are pretty large and out of my original scope, like 300 BLK...brings up 458 SOCOM to my mind, though. 600 grain, 1300 ft-lbs of pure subsonic joy. :D Now that would be something.

    Done. I shoot big-ass 675gr cast lead boolits for the SOCOM. Lehigh also makes two lathe turned pills for this application. I have 1-8" twist Savage pre-fit barrels to stabilize the pigs. Sub-sonic death. Easy day.







     

    gsbbullet

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    I'm thinking about buying a 300 Blackout in a Handi-Rifle single shot made by AAC. For those of you that already Own the gun how would you rate it ?
     

    bengineer

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    It works. It isn't nice. The 1913 rail on the receiver is well executed. I have shot deer inside 50 yards with 220 sierras at about 1000 fps with mixed terminal results. Most of the bullets tumbled; one deer wasn't recovered. Compared to a 44 with 310 cast subs, no contest for diameter and mass. gsbbullet, if you want one of those guns, PM me.
     

    3DHUSKER

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    I'm thinking about buying a 300 Blackout in a Handi-Rifle single shot made by AAC. For those of you that already Own the gun how would you rate it ?

    Have one but have not shot a deer with it. I also load 220 sierras at 1100 and have never had any tumble. Love shooting gongs out to 200 with it.

    I just see no reason to use anything else than a Super Sonic Suppressed rifle for game but I also shoot most game at extreme ranges. :)
     
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    bunsen27

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    bunsen27

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    Done. I shoot big-ass 675gr cast lead boolits for the SOCOM. Lehigh also makes two lathe turned pills for this application. I have 1-8" twist Savage pre-fit barrels to stabilize the pigs. Sub-sonic death. Easy day.








    That thing should have it's own dedicated thread, or does it already?
     

    Cobracutter

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    My buddy has taken deer without issue with a win model 94 .357
    I have taken many with a 94 in .44 mag. I like that I recovered all the animals quickly and have found about half of the slugs under the skin on the far side of the animal after smashing bones.
    Sounds like a fun project to me.


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    Apples to Oranges.

    .357 out of a rifle IS supersonic
    .44 out of a rifle is probably supersonic

    Both are DESIGNED to have bullets that penetrate/expand at their typical velocities

    Rifles shooting subsonic rounds is HIGHLY unethical...........and I am a pretty morally ambiguous person for frame of reference.

    Its selfish and irresponsible. 95% of the pills you guys are shooting, are not designed to pen/frag/expand at the velocities/distances you are shooting.

    What is the point of lobbing ballistically poor rounds at game? There is zero advantage unless you are poaching. Use a fucking round that has the energy to reliably kill the animal quickly and swiftly. None of you are hunting to survive so show the animal some respect while you are out playing your sport. Survival or necessity is one thing.......but all of these setups cost multitudes more than a simple .243/.270/.308 shooting off the rack hunting ammo. There is no excuse.

    I don't care if it has worked once or twice or 10 times for you. Its irresponsible and if you hunt enough, your statical luck will run out. There are clear and logical reasons why most states have energy requirements that hover around 1-1.2K FT. LBS@ the muzzle.

    A 300BLK/Whisper shooting a 220-225 grain pil at sub velocities barely breaks 500 ft pounds....... That is 9mm level power out of a 4" glock. You going to hunt deer at 50-100 yards with a Glock 19?

    Don't be a moron, idiots like this give hunters a bad name and make the battle even more uphill against the anti's/peta types.
     
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    Super Bee 950

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    My HK USC shoots 230 grain ammo at 1050FPS, and I dont cry when 45acp brass gets lost in the weeds. Dont need hearing protection with it either. A supressor would make it silent, but who cares if the animal hears the sound. It already has a hole in him, so he knows you are there!
     

    3DHUSKER

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    Apples to Oranges.

    .357 out of a rifle IS supersonic
    .44 out of a rifle is probably supersonic

    Both are DESIGNED to have bullets that penetrate/expand at their typical velocities

    Rifles shooting subsonic rounds is HIGHLY unethical...........and I am a pretty morally ambiguous person for frame of reference.

    Its selfish and irresponsible. 95% of the pills you guys are shooting, are not designed to pen/frag/expand at the velocities/distances you are shooting.

    What is the point of lobbing ballistically poor rounds at game? There is zero advantage unless you are poaching. Use a fucking round that has the energy to reliably kill the animal quickly and swiftly. None of you are hunting to survive so show the animal some respect while you are out playing your sport. Survival or necessity is one thing.......but all of these setups cost multitudes more than a simple .243/.270/.308 shooting off the rack hunting ammo. There is no excuse.

    I don't care if it has worked once or twice or 10 times for you. Its irresponsible and if you hunt enough, your statical luck will run out. There are clear and logical reasons why most states have energy requirements that hover around 1-1.2K FT. LBS@ the muzzle.

    A 300BLK/Whisper shooting a 220-225 grain pil at sub velocities barely breaks 500 ft pounds....... That is 9mm level power out of a 4" glock. You going to hunt deer at 50-100 yards with a Glock 19?

    Don't be a moron, idiots like this give hunters a bad name and make the battle even more uphill against the anti's/peta types.

    It's great you have an opinion and aren't you glad its a free country?
     

    balloonman75

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    It's great you have an opinion and aren't you glad its a free country?

    Still have a few freedoms left luckily. To each their own. I agree with the sentiment of cobracutter, and also like to err on the side of too powerful of chambering than not... so I wouldn't intentionally take my 300bo deer hunting, but if I happened to be in that position, I would likely trust a head shot if within 50/75max yards shooting subs and confident of a hit (them deer brains are a small target). What subs really do is limit the kind of shots that you would otherwise take with a more powerful smackdown round. Wounding and losing an animal sucks, but so does an empty freezer. But because I don't do it, doesn't mean I take issue with anyone else doing it responsibly. Subs are just way overrated for most kinds of hunting in my opinion, but it looks like you are really doing your due diligence with it.

    For whitetail, if you are going to be shooting subs, I would recommend pretty close proximity, which the 300bo should handle for you... By the way, 300bo supers are still pretty damn quiet suppressed on my rig (9" sbr with Specwar), and traveling twice as fast. Looking at larger calibers, I've taken out a handful of hogs with my 45/70 levergun, but I sure would be interested to see how those 675 grain mamajammers referenced above would perform plowing through a chest cavity in short range,,, but at half the velocity of the 45/70. Those big socom bullets ought to do the job pretty well, although not nearly as quiet as a 300bo sub, which seems to be near the top of the list for you. Also just remembered, 300bo has virtually NO recoil, which helps with staying on target for follow up shots, just in case the soft point sub doesn't have the knock down power on the first one. Happy hunting to you!
     

    Cobracutter

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    It's great you have an opinion and aren't you glad its a free country?

    Free country ..... where is that?

    With freedom comes responsibility.

    Responsibility to not act like a fucking moron and waste natural resources.

    Responsibility to not maim/wound/cripple an animal you are killing for fun.

    Responsibility to not give the anti's and morons more ammo (which i will agree with them on this point) to throw at brain dead politicians and policy makers.

    The fact that it is illegal in most places , and only skirts around the law by being a pistol in others......proves my point. 90% of the time, hunting Deer or other decent size game with subs is illegal.

    How would you like some subsonics lobed at you so you can bleed out and die a horrible, painful drawn out death?

    Even our enemies deserve humane treatment. Game animals are not our enemy so why would they deserve any less?
     

    1slow01z71

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    Free country ..... where is that?

    With freedom comes responsibility.

    Responsibility to not act like a fucking moron and waste natural resources.

    Responsibility to not maim/wound/cripple an animal you are killing for fun.

    Responsibility to not give the anti's and morons more ammo (which i will agree with them on this point) to throw at brain dead politicians and policy makers.

    The fact that it is illegal in most places , and only skirts around the law by being a pistol in others......proves my point. 90% of the time, hunting Deer or other decent size game with subs is illegal.

    How would you like some subsonics lobed at you so you can bleed out and die a horrible, painful drawn out death?

    Even our enemies deserve humane treatment. Game animals are not our enemy so why would they deserve any less?
    Maybe its different where youre at but pretty much everywhere in the south its legal to kill game animals with any centerfire cartridge. Take your soap box somewhere else Im pretty sure no one gives a rats ass what youre opinion is on how they hunt. Bows pack a lot less kinetic energy yet theyre legal. Youre showing your ignorance on a subject you obviously know nothing about.
     

    Cobracutter

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    Maybe its different where youre at but pretty much everywhere in the south its legal to kill game animals with any centerfire cartridge. Take your soap box somewhere else Im pretty sure no one gives a rats ass what youre opinion is on how they hunt. Bows pack a lot less kinetic energy yet theyre legal. Youre showing your ignorance on a subject you obviously know nothing about.

    Really? Ive been hunting my whole life... grew up in the most plentiful deer population in the entire country. I grew up working for a gunclub/hunting outfit.

    EVERY state I have hunted in on the east coast has required a min for muzzle energy. Most are between 1,000 to 1,200 FT Pounds for rifle. State/Counties that let you hunt with pistol usually are around 700 Ft Lbs. Just because a few states are archaic is the exception not the rule. Just because you can do something does legally not mean it is wise, eithical or a good idea.

    Most hunters are shitty hunters, including most people on this site who claim to be hunters(same as any cross section of society) . Spend enough time tracking deer or game and you will have a low tolerance for shitty hunters who use piss poor equipment and not shooting within their capabilities.

    Comparing a gun to a bow or crossbow is retarded. MOST states, also require a 7/8" or larger broadhead with atleast two cutting surfaces to legally hunt deer. They will either cut up the organs or cause a quick bleedout. MUCH quicker bleedout than with a gun due to the wound profile and channel. You also aren't taking 50-60-70-100 yard shots with a Bow, unless you are VERY experienced or an idiot. But hey, thinking is for faggots AMIRITE? They also require a min weight to ensure once again.... dickhead ignorant fuck tards aren't out there wounding game and being jackasses causing animals unnecessary suffering. Plenty of idiots still will shoot outside their capabilities and gut shot or ass shoot a deer because they don't have the skill............Buy oh fuck gotta get that trophy.

    Gota have them antlers to hang on the wall to show off to billy bob & cletus . Even better when you poach them with .22's out of season..........thats the country way right? Fucking Freedom Merca'


    There is no advantage, no need or benefit.
     
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    pprochnow

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    Super sonic suppressed is fun to hunt deer with. I would suggest a little field research on varmints with the sub rounds. They make A small hole that's about it.
    They just started to allow spear hunting during bow deer season here, I've heard that they are subsonic, probably more of a challenge too. More along the lines of .95 caliber.
     

    Geno C.

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    Subsonic Bullets and Ammunition

    I guess I can be one of those idiots. I was brought up to never take a shot unless you were damn sure you could hit it where you wanted.

    When I hunt with subs I always know my distances where the shot will be taken. And like I stated above, I only take head shots. I have yet to have an animal take a step after I ventilate their skulls. I'm not sure the brain knows the difference between a 220 gr bullet going below the speed of sound and a bullet of just about any other weight going 4000fps.

    I do find it a bit easier to hang a deer by the neck if I don't completely remove the head with my 300 anything mag.

    I'm by no means an expert. I have only hunted 22 years. I don't do it for a living. I'm no longer so poor I have to rely on venison for meat.

    Cobra I understand where you're coming from, but, calling someone ignorant for hunting with subs is, well... Ignorant
     

    1slow01z71

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    Really? Ive been hunting my whole life... grew up in the most plentiful deer population in the entire country. I grew up working for a gunclub/hunting outfit.

    EVERY state I have hunted in on the east coast has required a min for muzzle energy. Most are between 1,000 to 1,200 FT Pounds for rifle. State/Counties that let you hunt with pistol usually are around 700 Ft Lbs. Just because a few states are archaic is the exception not the rule. Just because you can do something does legally not mean it is wise, eithical or a good idea.

    Most hunters are shitty hunters, including most people on this site who claim to be hunters(same as any cross section of society) . Spend enough time tracking deer or game and you will have a low tolerance for shitty hunters who use piss poor equipment and not shooting within their capabilities.

    Comparing a gun to a bow or crossbow is retarded. MOST states, also require a 7/8" or larger broadhead with atleast two cutting surfaces to legally hunt deer. They will either cut up the organs or cause a quick bleedout. MUCH quicker bleedout than with a gun due to the wound profile and channel. You also aren't taking 50-60-70-100 yard shots with a Bow, unless you are VERY experienced or an idiot. But hey, thinking is for faggots AMIRITE? They also require a min weight to ensure once again.... dickhead ignorant fuck tards aren't out there wounding game and being jackasses causing animals unnecessary suffering. Plenty of idiots still will shoot outside their capabilities and gut shot or ass shoot a deer because they don't have the skill............Buy oh fuck gotta get that trophy.

    Gota have them antlers to hang on the wall to show off to billy bob & cletus . Even better when you poach them with .22's out of season..........thats the country way right? Fucking Freedom Merca'


    There is no advantage, no need or benefit.
    Because doing something for X amount of time means youre an expert on it right? Just because youve been doing something for a long time doesnt mean youve been doing it right.

    Its very common place to take 70+ yard shots with a bow in the western states. You also realize that the common 300blk subsonic bullets are an inch and half long and tumble right? You realize a 208 gr subsonic has 100 more ftlbs at 100yds than a 45acp at the muzzle right? I dont think anyone would say a 45acp would be underpowered at point blank range on a deer. Again preaching about stuff you have no idea about.

    Quoting minimum energy and caliber requirements are stupid. Everyone knows government agencies are always way behind the curve. Hell 17hmr is illegal yet 17 firebal isnt for hunting in many places. Some places require large caliber slow rounds instead of regular rifle rounds. Theres no rhyme or reason to their thought process.

    People who go through the hoops to get SBRs and cans arent your average hunter. Im sure theres some that just have money to burn but most I've met are true enthusiasts. I think this thread alone shows the commitment people have to executing an ethical shot. Ive got axis and a buddys lease is under biologist game management so no need to poach for me. I cant count how many times I've shot a deer, hog or turkey first then shot another game animal shortly after. I also use subs to clear hogs out of my feeder pen without scaring off the deer. Whether you see the advantage or not is of no consequence. Not everyone thinks like you, thankfully.
     
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    Gunfighter14e2

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    There is no advantage, no need or benefit.
    Well that's not really the case. When Mr. & Ms public are soundly sleeping there are times some, are paid to remove living/dangerous things w/o much fuss. Then you also have the homeowner who will protect his family no matter what, as not everyone lives in a danger free zone w/o 911 like some. Now living things can mean many things, be they two or four legged, w/wings, tails, or no shoulders. Sure one could use the correct snare, or other type of trap, poisons ect, but all of those have drawbacks, even using the correct gun w/a suppressor can be a draw back. Everything has draw backs, but a big slug, that is sent quietly and placed correctly works very well to keep the public safe, w/o them even knowing (1) they were in danger and (2) the event happened in their back yard while they and their children were dreaming about picnics and ice cream.
    I use a 16.250" H&R handi in 44mag that chunks a 310gr cast. Topped with an IR laser and 2.5X8 Leupold. Worked very well be it day or night, for the last 17-18 years or so, compact, lite. If I was going to do it over I'd go 500S&W in the same package w/a custom mold for casting. Big wound's even in the wrong place produce results albeit,... not right there.
    By the By, many Military's on this rock are now using either a subsonic 22lr or big slow movers as well. Seems the Israelis are still teaching many,...how to.