Tactical Class - Why?

LawnMM

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To be fair, a lot of dudes out there are also rocking a set of tits. Maybe that’s why they are so angry about something that doesn’t effect them at all.
I hear what you're saying, just to be clear I've got no issues with the top female getting a trophy. Just pointing out that the same guy who bitches about tac class cutting the line to the table or gaming the class for a trophy are silent about the ladies class and it's the same thing.

The prize table walk has almost become a participation trophy ceremony of sorts. The guy that finishes 70th in open can go home a prize winner. And as pointed out, at many matches, the Top Tac is the only one who cuts the line.
Maybe in your experience. I've seen top lady get two cracks at the table, once for top lady and again when their name is called in 30th ... 50th ... whateverith place.

All the bullshit in this sport surrounds that stupid prize table. Raffle it all off randomly or sell the shit and use it to buy more steel for next year.
 

M8541Reaper

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I hear what you're saying, just to be clear I've got no issues with the top female getting a trophy. Just pointing out that the same guy who bitches about tac class cutting the line to the table or gaming the class for a trophy are silent about the ladies class and it's the same thing.
Yea dude, no worries there, I knew what ya meant and agree. Just making a joke. Excellent point though. Really all this just comes down to dudes bitching because someone got a trophy/bigger trophy or got to hit the table before them. Tac Div is just another barrier to the prize table for those bitching because they won’t get to make money in the SH PX the following weekend.

It’s a game. There’s no crying in baseball but there is when it comes to shooting.
 

LawnMM

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It's a symptom of the larger problem.

You have too many people competing in the same "class" and when people sandbag and jump to other classes and everybodys got their eye on the same prize table we get a lot of unhappy people.

We need a beginner / intermediate / pro set of classifications based on performance to avoid people trying to drop down for better prizes.

At the same time you protect the new guy with the 308 from getting annihilated by the pro shooting "tac class" with 155s at 2900fps out of a 28" barrel.

Tac class is just 'open 308' so whatever the original goal of that classification was I'm pretty sure it's gone well off the tracks.

If you want to do trophies for top lady, military guy, top transgendered whiner, that's fine. It's also a bandaid. You need to break up the field and have people level up based on their performance.

That means the "Series"eseses will have to do more than keep score. End of year you have to look at the scores and rank people up if they're in the top 33% and once they jump up a level there's no going back.

They need to take a more active role than keeping score and 'match directors can run their matches however they want.'

That's fine for course of fire, not so smart when the whining starts and some of the complaints are legitimate about how shit is scored and the sillyness that ensues.
 

Krazy Korean

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Can't wait to shoot TAC in 2020.... starting with mammoth.... I just don't want to load up 200 rounds of dasher ammo and have to worry about finding all my brass for a 2 day.. 1000 pieces of starline brass for dirtcheap, and send it. Too much drama in the PRS (don't shoot NRL, so can't speak of it) that needs to get sorted out, or hopefully we start getting more outlaw matches to shoot. I think random prize table for 1 year would solve the issue, rather than giving the same 20 guys who are already sponsored every prize so they can sell it. If nothing else itd be fun to listen to and read all the crying...
 
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Dthomas3523

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From the little time I spend on this site, my estimate would be that 95% of the people that bitch about PRS have never even shot a PRS match. Or even a 1-day match for that matter. But they sure as hell know how to work a keyboard!
Just saw this.

The other option to your theory is some of use shoot 3-4 matches a month, 500-1k rounds a month and likely more than you in a year. ?‍♂?‍♂
 

Rob01

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Bill does just fine and shoots plenty. Might recognize the name that won the Road To Redemption PRS match this past weekend. ?
 

Dthomas3523

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Bill does just fine and shoots plenty. Might recognize the name that won the Road To Redemption PRS match this past weekend. ?
My point was, no one knows who or how much people shoot.
 

Dthomas3523

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This hobby is like many hobbies out there, if there ever becomes a reason for talent to really get out there, many of the “top” guys won’t be top anymore. There’s tons of very talented shooters tucked away all over the country shooting club matches because it doesn’t make much sense to do a ton of 2 day.

I’m not suggesting myself in anyway. Just reminding that this hobby ain’t mainstream and we are small potatoes.
 

M8541Reaper

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This hobby is like many hobbies out there, if there ever becomes a reason for talent to really get out there, many of the “top” guys won’t be top anymore. There’s tons of very talented shooters tucked away all over the country shooting club matches because it doesn’t make much sense to do a ton of 2 day.

I’m not suggesting myself in anyway. Just reminding that this hobby ain’t mainstream and we are small potatoes.
If anyone thinks your point is bullshit (which it isn't), they can look at what happened with Ronda Rousey. She was top of her game and broke a hole in the wall for female fighters to get traction in the big league. Then they started coming out of the woodwork, be it as pros in their own fields or those who never took the leap to the UFC.

That example aside, there will always be someone out there who is better than you and training harder than you. Doesn't matter who you are or what your experience level is. To think otherwise is arrogant. It is a game and there is always a better player.
 
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JustSendit

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I don't usually agree with Jake but he is 100% correct:

View attachment 7169663
No way that works, not fairly, so this LEO marksmen has a AI SA issued, this Army Guard dude, *IF he can even sign the weapon out, he gets a M110 SASS, with M118LR. There’s not 308 or 223 bolt gun in the Army inventory besides one place.

It’s an idea but that doesn’t level the playing field.

308 is so ballistically inferior, why does it matter? I have a 14lbs gun and have to make wind calls within 2mph to even have a chance on some of the PRS targets and if the wind switches, I’m going off the edge. I actually don’t think some 6mm shooters even make an actual wind call, just a direction and hold an edge, and they can see their own trace.

My point is tac harder to shoot well with and its about the ammo, not the rig.

What I see this boiling down to is grumbling over the prize table. Maybe some take advantage of the system. Generally I don’t think it’s a big deal.
 

Shortbus6588

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Tactical the division is what got me into shooting PRS matches. I still shoot TAC more often than not. If the division was eliminated I would probably not attend any more matches. I have several friends that I have talked into attending their first match based on tactical division.


There is definitely a continued place for tactical division. It's also a great way to keep costs down for the shooters. .308 rifles are cheap and readily available right off the production line. For those who don't reload .308 Precision Ammo is also inexpensive compared to other calibers.

For an amateur like myself The increased Barrel life that a tactical division rifle offers is a huge advantage. I am definitely not into the latest 6 mm cartridges that eat barrels in ~1500 rounds, for me that is very unappealing.

Yes 308 and 223 are not The Cutting Edge of cartridge technology. Yes it is not as flat shooting and has more wind drift compared to the newest hot 6 mm. Frankly I don't care. I do this game to have fun and enjoy shooting, to be challenged and to become a better shooter, not chase a prize table.

Cheers
 
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RRW

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"Yes 308 and 223 are not The Cutting Edge of cartridge technology. Yes it is not as flat shooting and has more wind drift compared to the newest hot 6 mm. Frankly I don't care. I do this game to have fun and enjoy shooting, to be challenged and to become a better shooter, not chase a prize table."

Well said, that's it in a nutshell for me right there.
 

FUNCTIONAL

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I've learned more in tac class this year than I had in 2 years of shooting open. Noticed myself cheating fundamentals for light recoil and gear and shot tac to force myself into shooting correctly.

Turns out I find it more fun than open and its also nice I can shoot 2000 match rounds and not have to worry about my barrel dieing or load maintenance chasing lands. Top tac guys seem to be less winey than the top open guys at least in my SE region...nicer experience shooting with/against them.
 

308pirate

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Reading all the drama online and noticing the gaming (even at small club matches) is a big turn off.
Then I would say that the shooting sports are simply not for you, period.

There's drama in every shooting sport I've competed in (Service Rifle, NRA prone, NSCA sporting clays, IDPA, and USPSA). You have two options to deal with it. Join in or ignore it. I ignore it.

These are games, with rules, so we game the rules. One of the reasons I love competing in USPSA is that long ago the organization and its members figured out that this is a game. No one makes any pretense otherwise and no one absolutely gives a fuck about "intent". It's either in the rulebook or it's not. Any ambiguity that can be exploited into a competitive advantage is gamed. Because this is a game. Gaming isn't cheating, because it's done within the confines and restrictions of the rulebook and of the written stage bulletin.

Same in service rifle: gaming means finding an advantage within the confines of the strict equipment rules. That's how someone figured out how to rig an M1907 sling into a configuration that would greatly reduce the influence of your pulse on the rifle.

"Sports" where people argue about the intent of the rules are dumb. If you don't want competitors to do or not do something, spend a few minutes thinking and then write an intelligent rule.
 

308pirate

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TAC class will never attract police and military shooters to any degree.

How do I know?

Easy. USPSA and IDPA both have divisions (Production and Stock Service Pistol) where the average police or military duty handgun is more than capable of cleaning the course of fire. Both of those organizations have rules that permit police and military personnel to use their duty belt and holster in Production and Stock Service Pistol without regard to the restrictions placed on civilian competitors (again to encourage them).

Net result: in the 12 years I've shot in IDPA and four years in USPSA I've seen a grand total of two police officers be regular competitors. One shot a bunch of IDPA matches with his duty gear and pistol, the other shoots Open and Carry Optics out of competition holsters in USPSA.
 
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Luvman

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Then I would say that the shooting sports are simply not for you, period.

There's drama in every shooting sport I've competed in (Service Rifle, NRA prone, NSCA sporting clays, IDPA, and USPSA). You have two options to deal with it. Join in or ignore it. I ignore it.
I’m perfectly fine with the shooting sports as they are. I said the gaming was a turn off.

I go to matches to help me see where I can improve, to shoot in positions I normally wonder, and to shoot under the stress of the clock.

I could give a shit less about participation trophies and prize tables. I have haven’t been to a match that had either.

At the matches I have attended I have met some very helpful and welcoming shooters.
 

ThePretzel

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I’m perfectly fine with the shooting sports as they are. I said the gaming was a turn off.
So you're fine with the shooting sports as they are, except for the parts you don't like?

Any competition will always have people who bend the rules as far as possible. If you ban one method of gaming the rules, people will game the new rule as best they can. Any kind of subjective rule about intent is a terrible idea because it's guaranteed to be impossible to rule consistently from MD to MD on.

Anything not prohibited by the rules is allowed, and if people want to load themselves down with tripods and tables and all sorts of other gear they can go ahead and do that. If you want to utilize solid shooting fundamentals and minimal gear you can do that too. There are guys at the top using either method so it isn't as if one of them has a complete advantage over the other. One gives easier stability once in position, the other gives you more time during the stage because you're not screwing around with gear.
 

Luvman

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So you're fine with the shooting sports as they are, except for the parts you don't like?

Any competition will always have people who bend the rules as far as possible. If you ban one method of gaming the rules, people will game the new rule as best they can. Any kind of subjective rule about intent is a terrible idea because it's guaranteed to be impossible to rule consistently from MD to MD on.

Anything not prohibited by the rules is allowed, and if people want to load themselves down with tripods and tables and all sorts of other gear they can go ahead and do that. If you want to utilize solid shooting fundamentals and minimal gear you can do that too. There are guys at the top using either method so it isn't as if one of them has a complete advantage over the other. One gives easier stability once in position, the other gives you more time during the stage because you're not screwing around with gear.
I guess I should clarify. When I say gaming is a turn off it’s not shooters working within the rules to to get an advantage. It’s shooters skirting outside the rules to get an advantage. An example would be using a second bag when the rules state one bag. Things like that.

if someone wants to use whatever gee whiz bang gadget they can buy that the rules allow. Have at it.
 

308pirate

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I guess I should clarify. When I say gaming is a turn off it’s not shooters working within the rules to to get an advantage. It’s shooters skirting outside the rules to get an advantage. An example would be using a second bag when the rules state one bag. Things like that.
That's not gaming. That's cheating. They are two very different things.

The fact that no one calls out and punishes people who do that is the problem.
 

FUNCTIONAL

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Takes a much different shooter to shoot a 308 and do well.
The only guys I har complaining about tac are the open guys that got beat by them.. :LOL:
This thread alone has made my take up Dtros' goal of placing in the top 3 overall with a 308 next year. I did it in a 1 day reginal match this season but I'm aiming for a 2 day in 2020. There was a lot of butt hurt people at the 1 day though...it was pretty enjoyable.
 

morganlamprecht

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it wont be hard if you are picky with your matches and can shoot

223/308 aint even a real disadvantage at plenty of venues
 
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ColdSteel260

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Guy that won PRS TAC overall was shooting a ~16lb gun in 308.
Ridiculous to see other tac shooters with 30lb rifles at the finale. Just gotta practice.
 

Stag556

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Guy that won PRS TAC overall was shooting a ~16lb gun in 308.
Ridiculous to see other tac shooters with 30lb rifles at the finale. Just gotta practice.
The guy that won Tac is an experienced, seasoned shooter who is very good at what he does, Tac class or open class Gear doesn’t outweigh skill.

And I was one of those guys with a heavy rifle in Tac class at the finale and one of only two mil/LEO guys shooting in the class. What’s the point exactly? I had a terrible match with a heavy gun so again, gear doesn’t outweigh skill.

At the end of the day, I had a blast doing it. That’s all that matters.
 

ColdSteel260

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I didn't shoot the way I would have liked either. I've got a lot to practice before the season starts.
Guy that won production was shooting super well. With a production gun. Practices his trade.
 

Tx_Aggie

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I didn't shoot the way I would have liked either. I've got a lot to practice before the season starts.
Guy that won production was shooting super well. With a production gun. Practices his trade.
The guy that won production is a world class pistol shooter and multi-gun competitor, and was probably the single most accomplished competitive shooter at K&M during the match.

Doug might be new to PRS, but he's been shooting action pistol and 3-gun for a long time. I think he's won multiple IPSC world championships (where you actually compete against shooters from all over the planet), won the Bianchi Cup something like 18 times(!), is a steel challenge multiple world champ, etc.
 

ColdSteel260

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The guy that won production is a world class pistol shooter and multi-gun competitor, and was probably the single most accomplished competitive shooter at K&M during the match.

Doug might be new to PRS, but he's been shooting action pistol and 3-gun for a long time. I think he's won multiple IPSC world championships (where you actually compete against shooters from all over the planet), won the Bianchi Cup something like 18 times(!), is a steel challenge multiple world champ, etc.
He's a very focused, dry and professional shooter.

To be fair, we had shooters from all over the planet at the finale as well.
 
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Braxtond

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I don’t understand why there’s any thought on removing the Tac class. If you look at the ballistic comparisons of todays fancy 6mm cartridges like the dasher or gt or br(a,x) or x47 and the much less forgiving .308 win it’s a wonder why anyone looking to win with any advantage would choose a .308. I personally am shooting a factory 700 .308 with hand loads. I have much more drop at distance, much shorter distance to transonic region, much more wind affect, and much more recoil. Why would anyone subject themselves to this? For me, it’s a much better learning experience for me on wind calls, recoil management, long range ballistic doping, understanding how to push a cartridge to utmost. Take a 1300 yard target, I have to be on my game and I mean on it to hit with a .308. Shooting the fastest newest coolest 6mm in open there’s still a good deal of skill required but my odds of impact are exponentially higher. So maybe the tac .308 .223 division is a great way for newer shooters to learn dope and fundamentals or for experienced open shooters to go back and push themselves when they get complacent. And by the way yes I am active military and shooting a factory 5R 700 is remarkably close if not less accurate than the ‘work’ .308 rifles I’ve used. And no I can’t just go in and take my work rifles out the range. As far as handloads vs factory ammo, the 175 grain long range cartridge for sniping is a handload. Federal happen to re create it in their gold medal match. Getting off my soap box now...
 
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Dthomas3523

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I don’t understand why there’s any thought on removing the Tac class. If you look at the ballistic comparisons of todays fancy 6mm cartridges like the dasher or gt or br(a,x) or x47 and the much less forgiving .308 win it’s a wonder why anyone looking to win with any advantage would choose a .308. I personally am shooting a factory 700 .308 with hand loads. I have much more drop at distance, much shorter distance to transonic region, much more wind affect, and much more recoil. Why would anyone subject themselves to this? For me, it’s a much better learning experience for me on wind calls, recoil management, long range ballistic doping, understanding how to push a cartridge to utmost. Take a 1300 yard target, I have to be on my game and I mean on it to hit with a .308. Shooting the fastest newest coolest 6mm in open there’s still a good deal of skill required but my odds of impact are exponentially higher. So maybe the tac .308 .223 division is a great way for newer shooters to learn dope and fundamentals or for experienced open shooters to go back and push themselves when they get complacent. And by the way yes I am active military and shooting a factory 5R 700 is remarkably close if not less accurate than the ‘work’ .308 rifles I’ve used. And no I can’t just go in and take my work rifles out the range. As far as handloads vs factory ammo, the 175 grain long range cartridge for sniping is a handload. Federal happen to re create it in their gold medal match. Getting off my soap box now...
Who “hand loads” the 175 “cartridge for sniping”?
 

Dthomas3523

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Also, if the competition community thought it is such a great way for new shooters to learn, there wouldn’t be 8 people shooting in the class......
 

Dthomas3523

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My mistake. There’s a whopping 18 people shooting it.

I have no issue with them keeping the class in aterisk form. As in, you can look at a match and see who else is shooting a .223 and .308 so you can see how you stacked up.

Zero reason for points, trophies, etc etc.

(I also feel the same way about production class as the rifles have become so good it’s trivial. As well as lady’s class as there is zero distinguishable reason a man has any advantage over a woman in this game)
 

Braxtond

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The M118 special ball long range cartridge was built by marines. Yes it’s not mass produced by handloaders. It was developed as a handload and put into production after realizing the 168 gr special ball was inconsistent.
There are plenty more than 8 shooters. Visit their website some time.
 

Braxtond

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I absolutely agree with the lady class. Regina Milkovich is doing way better than almost all the other men. I don’t feel there’s a need to delineate between men and women shooters.
 

Braxtond

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I believe in what I said about new shooters but I feel a lot of new shooters aren’t in the tac class because they get drawn to these ‘super calibers’. They want every advantage and I can’t blame them. But we end up with threads like this when new shooters but the newest hottest thing and still can’t shoot
 

Dthomas3523

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The M118 special ball long range cartridge was built by marines. Yes it’s not mass produced by handloaders. It was developed as a handload and put into production after realizing the 168 gr special ball was inconsistent.
There are plenty more than 8 shooters. Visit their website some time.
There’s 18 shooters. Big deal.

Also, every single load out there starts as a hand load. So that argument is moot and a no go.

No class is going to change the fact that some people look for gear to compensate when they should be learning to shoot first. So that argument is moot as well.

The best solution is to combine tactical and production class with the following rules:

18.5lbs weight limit on rifle/optic/rails

26” barrel length limit

1.5lb trigger weight limit

1 bag and bipod limit (tripods when allowed)

Factory/non custom ammo

No price limit on rifle or optics.
 

Braxtond

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You’re right all cartridges start that way. Fair enough. If you combine tactical and production i agree all ammo should be factory ammo, hence production. Why not have a price cap? I know there are many production rigs with hefty tags but out of curiosity why not? The lack of a price cap seems to fit open more than production. In my mind the complaint of tactical division should be dropped for the op’s reasoning it sounds like a cry of I can’t place and I want a trophy too. Yes there are fewer tactical shooters. Yes it’s less competition for a win. Why not have the division but make the ‘win’ a points race as part of the overall placement. No trophies for the division. I have zero desire to walk away with a tactical division win. I’d rather compete with the better calibers and see how I stack up there with a lesser cartridge.
 

Dthomas3523

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You’re right all cartridges start that way. Fair enough. If you combine tactical and production i agree all ammo should be factory ammo, hence production. Why not have a price cap? I know there are many production rigs with hefty tags but out of curiosity why not? The lack of a price cap seems to fit open more than production. In my mind the complaint of tactical division should be dropped for the op’s reasoning it sounds like a cry of I can’t place and I want a trophy too. Yes there are fewer tactical shooters. Yes it’s less competition for a win. Why not have the division but make the ‘win’ a points race as part of the overall placement. No trophies for the division. I have zero desire to walk away with a tactical division win. I’d rather compete with the better calibers and see how I stack up there with a lesser cartridge.
When you can buy a gap Production rifle for $2500, the cap is pretty much trivial now.

Open should be weight/accessories/ammo.

At this point, when you have mpa and gap in the production game, you’re not buying more accuracy.
 

Braxtond

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I’d absolutely agree you won’t buy more accuracy with players like that. So for the production class you’re really limiting gear not as much the rifle or cartridge. Wouldn’t that be harder than the open class? Maybe re label it to something other than production like limited. I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing that.
 

Dthomas3523

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I’d absolutely agree you won’t buy more accuracy with players like that. So for the production class you’re really limiting gear not as much the rifle or cartridge. Wouldn’t that be harder than the open class? Maybe re label it to something other than production like limited. I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing that.
That’s pretty much it, yes.

The name would change to “limited” or “tactical/hunter.” In turn, production and tactical class would be eliminated.

And I agree, it would be harder and be closer to defining the better marksman.

And you’d be limiting people to commercially available ammo. This keeps people a bit more on the same playing field as they have to shoot from a list of authorized manufacturers.
 

Toughestsoldier

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I am hearing a bunch of complaints. The first complaint I’m hearing is that people are pissed off that they’re not good enough to win the prize table and they’re mad that production or other classes or getting stuff. The second one that I’m hearing is that they want to hold back these people because of Idol feelings of superiority. There is absolutely no reason why people should be restricted the factory ammo. Nobody is going to stay in the sport long-term running factory ammo all the time it’s just too expensive.
 
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Dthomas3523

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South Texas
I am hearing a bunch of complaints. The first complaint I’m hearing is that people are pissed off that they’re not good enough to win the prize table and they’re mad that production or other classes or getting stuff. The second one that I’m hearing is that they want to hold back these people because of Idol feelings of superiority. There is absolutely no reason why people should be restricted the factory ammo. Nobody is going to stay in the sport long-term running factory ammo all the time it’s just too expensive.
If $1.15/rnd is too expensive, you’re probably in the wrong hobby.

Making changes listed above would actually make the class *harder* to get a trophy in.
 

Rob01

Super Mod
Staff member
Jul 9, 2001
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NC
If $1.15/rnd is too expensive, you’re probably in the wrong hobby.
Kind of a little elitist go be poor somewhere else comment don't you think? Not everyone can afford that and handloading helps keep the sport accessible to shooters. Making people shoot factory ammo is not the answer to Tac class.