PRS Talk Tactical Class - Why?

[Dthomas3523]

Kind of a little elitist go be poor somewhere else comment don't you think? Not everyone can afford that and handloading helps keep the sport accessible to shooters. Making people shoot factory ammo is not the answer to Tac class.

Or it’s a realist view. The only place Tac class exists is in PRS events. No one cares what local matches do. Have whatever class you want. The discussion is pertaining to PRS.

$250 entry fee
$1k travel or more
Misc fees

It’s universally accepted that a 2 day match is going to cost $2k unless it’s on your back door.

If you can afford to shoot PRS matches, you aren’t worried with the negligible amount you save per round. Especially once you add in the cost of loading equipment.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If your budget is so tight that the minimal savings from loading vs factory is what allows you to shoot 2 day PRS matches, you have your financial priorities incredibly messed up.

You should be shooting local club matches and using the money you save elsewhere in life.

 

[Lowlight]

Good Factory Ammo is only a few cents different from reloading, and when you consider the TIME element it's not cheaper at all.

Costs are going down for quality factory ammo when you consider the cost of start-up, the initial investment is much higher. Your volume has to be well beyond a match season to see the difference in your pocket. We crunched the numbers, when solid factory ammo like 260REM was $52 a box, reloading was necessary. Today you can get 6.5CM for less than $25. The costs have changed.

On top of that, what some of the bitches don't realize, this is all hypothetical there is no factory ammo requirement. Doesn't exist, we invented as part of the discussion.

But if you want a true Production / Limited Class that opens the door to all new shooters, this class works best, having a limited division with limited options. Factory, Factory, Factory.

if you want handloads you are Open class it's pretty simple. Then you can do whatever you want, with next to no rules.

 

[Rob01]

Hey none of all this hypothetical will probably come to frutition in PRS anyways so rock on with the factory ammo only. Won't make a difference in performance anyways with people who will be at the top in Tac.

 

[Lowlight]

It would open another revenue stream for them,

Official Factory Ammo Sponsor of the PRS

Cha-Ching,

 

[Rob01]

Or it’s a realist view. The only place Tac class exists is in PRS events. No one cares what local matches do. Have whatever class you want. The discussion is pertaining to PRS.

$250 entry fee
$1k travel or more
Misc fees

It’s universally accepted that a 2 day match is going to cost $2k unless it’s on your back door.

If you can afford to shoot PRS matches, you aren’t worried with the negligible amount you save per round. Especially once you add in the cost of loading equipment.

Yup it's expensive and then you have match directors telling you what you can and can't do with the prizes you pull off the table. Cracks me up when a MD charges near $300 for a match and then has the balls to lecture people they should give away their table pick to a new shooter to "grow the sport" lol Some set of balls.

 

[Lowlight]

LOL

nobody is telling anyone what they can do with a prize, they may say it's bad form to sell it on Monday but still, everyone is still doing the same stuff. The difference is, now the companies are spreading it out, and not front-loading the prizes because they know they will be sold otherwise.

Hell, you can find a bunch of Top Prizes for sale on here, each week.

Tell the PRS to doll out some of that cash they are taking in, those "Official" sponsor tags are like $50k each... you can't tell me that can't pay shooters vs forcing them to sell prizes.

My thinking is, yes this is a precision rifle if you have to leverage yourself to attend enough matches to qualify you are doing it wrong. With only about 1700 actually participating and 360 or so Pros, it's not a lot of shooters for that kind of sponsorship. If I said to the Official Sponsor I will give you access to 450,000 unique viewers and 7 Million impressions every month of the year for $50k they would say no it's not worth it. too expensive.

 

[Rob01]

Actually I have heard it from their mouth more than a few times over the past year or so. Yes some do tell you that. Whether you do what they say is up to you but it's being told and passed around as what they want.

Everyone is free to do what they want with what they get. That is my thought on it. Sell it, keep it, give it to a new shooter or smash it with a rock if you want. LOL It's yours.

 

[Lowlight]

Telling you it's bad form and why you shouldn' t isn't the same as forcing you to do something

They often hear from companies who straight up say, don't give to these people, MHSA does that because these same people have won, in the case of MHSA an AI AT Rifle 3x and sold it every time, why give the same person a 4th?

Companies do express displeasure in seeing the product sold at a discount. Just because as a competitor you never hear it, except from the MD maybe that is your fault.

What is the current ROI for a match donation, a picture of the box posted on FB, LOL nice.

 

[Rob01]

They don't force you of course but they speak very harshly and put the point across. They have actually said you should give it away instead of sell it. Of course you don't have to listen to them but it is being said. That is the point that it takes a lot of balls to try and push that and charge people what they do for matches. You as I have seen the price go up and up over the past years.

I know some companies do not like it. Well don't donate. A prize table is really a perk to a match and not a must have. I don't care. I shoot anyways but if there is one then don't try and make me feel guilty for doing what I want with whatever comes off it.

 

[Lowlight]

You are shooting for a Series, in an aggregate competition to qualify for their Finale

NASCAR pays prizes, not Atlanta Motor Speedway, you are competing for the Series, what do they give you? You paid them too.

Prizes are a DONATION exactly as you said, a gesture of thanks for participating in the sport, they are not there to support an individual effort or bankroll your hobby. There has to be a ROI or why bother?

Is the prize meant to bankroll a single individual down the road, or to market and support their business ? if the only return on their donation is a picture of the box, and a lost sale because it was sold at discount, what is the point ?

If you want a Pay Out, push the series to use their money. The MD is actually working a job, that when you add up the hours, your $300 fee does not pay him a minimum wage. He is probably doing 18 hour days when the match is in full swing. He is marketing, soliciting prizes, managing the shooters, building practiscore tables, dropping steel, asking for ROs to volunteer. Then herding cats, listening to bitches, and after when you all go home, he is cleaning up, putting away, sending out thank you notes, (The competitors can;t be bothered to do)

Come on now Rob you been doing it longer than most, granted, you like the payouts more too, but still, its asking for a prize and to be paid to shoot a round of golf on the weekend.

The idea of the prize table was to defer costs and promote businesses, not enrich competitors. I have hosted some of the biggest prize tables in the sport, it's not easy managing it all, which is why I don't bother anymore and give my money all back as cash to the winners.

You slide in, shoot his work, take a prize and go home, and you want him to reward you.

Sounds like a choice job,

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

I agree with not forcing factory ammo. Reloading is half the cost on average of factory match rounds. Before anyone says"but the reloading equipment cost blah blah", its an investment that pays off and a lot of people get reloading equipment handed down. The barrel length limit will already put restrictions on speed and mmags limit how heavy off a bullet you can use.

 

[Rob01]

Frank I agree. Prize tables are not there to support anyone. Honestly I shoot more one day matches now without prize tables as I like having fun shooting. I still shoot some 2 day matches but I am not a PRS member and don't give a damn about their finale so I shoot for fun as I have for many years as you know. The prize table is a perk. Get rid of them all and that would be great. Drop match prices to $150 and lets all shoot. LOL

 

[Dthomas3523]

I agree with not forcing factory ammo. Reloading is half the cost on average of factory match rounds. Before anyone says"but the reloading equipment cost blah blah", its an investment that pays off and a lot of people get reloading equipment handed down. The barrel length limit will already put restrictions on speed and mmags limit how heavy off a bullet you can use.

If using quality parts, it costs me about 70-75cents to load 6x47. That’s using 10x on brass (you’ll likely lose brass before you ruin it, if you shoot matches)

I can buy hornady 6cm ammo for $1.15 each. And not have the cost of loading equipment or time invested. Most people aren’t loading on handed down equipment and then shooting a 2day match costing $2k in expenses. “Some” yes. Most do not.

A barrel length limit of 26” will in no way place a limit on how heavy a bullet you can use.

And you can shoot open class if you want to make your own ammo.

It will also drive up ammunition sales, which may lead to better sponsorships.

 

[Lowlight]

You have OPEN Class for any ammo you want, a limited class should be limited.

please just stop with 1/2 the cost, you are not making shit that is competing with quality factory ammo from a hand me down reloading set. You are saying you are matching ammo better at 50 cents a round, LOL. Please spare us.

Sure that old Rockchucker with a balance scale is gonna compete against the current system people are using.

The powder tricklers people are using cost more, guys are running more electronics with their current reloading than ever before.

It's not 1978, match ammo is not $50 a box, it's $25. That means $1.25, you guys are chasing the best components on the planet, so much so you see people crawl on their hands and knees to recover a single piece of brass. How is that more economical when you are sweating a single component left on the ground. comic at best.

Sure go buy a 6GT from GAP and then get some of Clay's ammo, it's cheaper to reload it, He wants $40 a box almost but what happens when Prime has it for $28 ? How are you reloading it that cheap ?

Next tell me how the hand me down reloading is doing cheaper against the guys running A Tips because they are sponsored?

 

[Dthomas3523]

As far as prizes, I’m now or the opinion that if a sponsor doesn’t want someone to sell it, then they should donate certs and have a disclaimer they will check the match list for your name.

 

[PAYDIRT]

Kind of a little elitist go be poor somewhere else comment don't you think? Not everyone can afford that and handloading helps keep the sport accessible to shooters. Making people shoot factory ammo is not the answer to Tac class.

Absolutely, it takes serious $ management for me to be able to go to matches, then I look around and see way nicer shit than I could ever afford then wonder wtf do these guys do for a living.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Absolutely, it takes serious $ management for me to be able to go to matches, then I look around and see way nicer shit than I could ever afford then wonder wtf do these guys do for a living.

What do you get out of a 2 day you can’t get from local matches that makes it worth that tight of a budget? Unless there are no matches around.

 

[Toughestsoldier]

If I shot anything at $1.15 a round I would get out of shooting sports. My reloading here is pretty much the equivalent of the 25-year-old rock trucker and balance scale and I have zero troubles with any of my open class rifles getting half or better M O Way and SD under five so don’t even think for a minute if there are people out there who need that expensive reloading equipment like that makes that much of a difference.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If I shot anything at $1.15 a round I would get out of shooting sports. My reloading here is pretty much the equivalent of the 25-year-old rock trucker and balance scale and I have zero troubles with any of my open class rifles getting half or better M O Way and SD under five so don’t even think for a minute if there are people out there who need that expensive reloading equipment like that makes that much of a difference.

And how many 2day $2k matches are you attending a year?

If none or not a lot, what’s it matter? If this change even came about, it would only affect people shooting 2 day matches who want to shoot limited class.

I only make a couple a year. As we have a ton of one day matches here.

 

[Toughestsoldier]

Last year was my first year. I shot over 6000 rounds of matching ammo shot 8 one day matches. This year I had three today matches scheduled until this stupid lockdown. I plan on shooting a total of 20 to 30,000 rounds a crossed pistols rifles and 22 this year. Not sure how you guys get to $2000 for a match but hey to each her own.

 

[Rob01]

$2000 is a high side with air travel etc. If you can drive with a friend to 2 day matches it's much cheaper. $270 for match, maybe $80 for hotel and then gas and food.

 

[Lowlight]

See, one-day matches, as if.

not enough to matter, and I guarantee you are not saving any near what you think you are. nothing wrong with reloading, but it's also a determining factor in a lot of ways. Between all those disciplines and calibers, I can shoot 20,000 of just match rifle ammo in a season easily, don't even count the other stuff. I do over 10k in just Prime, let alone the Hornady and Berger/Lapua stuff I use that Prime doesn't make.

Also, it's about time off for many people vs being camped out every night reloading to make a match.

Everyone ignores the time factor, my time is valuable.

Want to reload, it's open class, nobody is limiting you to anything. If you want to play Limited and then start stacking on options to gain an advantage over the other guy, then you are right back to where it started. A wild west mess.

How many people over the last couple of seasons were bitching about guys gaming the 308 class? 30 Inch barrel, crazy velocities, and different bullets can make a difference, when Johnny new guy shows up with factory 168s and speedy reloader has 185s going 2750fps you cannot say there isn't an advantage. Heck, you can have two loads, a meatball load and a fancy A-Tip one, because of this, you fall into the open class. super simple, no gray.

Turns into a gear race, Open Div is your gear race, Limited is not, it, now wait for it, LIMITS your ability to game the system. If you don't think reloading is a way to game the system you haven't been paying attention close enough.

 

[PAYDIRT]

What do you get out of a 2 day you can’t get from local matches that makes it worth that tight of a budget? Unless there are no matches around.

Nothing really local, and I don't go to 2 day matches.

 

[JustSendit]

Wow it’s funny how someone that does not even compete in tactical has the biggest stick up his ass about the division. Is this really an issue? Go get a 308 and crush the best tactical guy, bet the biggest shit talkers couldn’t.

 

[RRW]

I am hearing a bunch of complaints. The first complaint I’m hearing is that people are pissed off that they’re not good enough to win the prize table and they’re mad that production or other classes or getting stuff. The second one that I’m hearing is that they want to hold back these people because of Idol feelings of superiority. There is absolutely no reason why people should be restricted the factory ammo. Nobody is going to stay in the sport long-term running factory ammo all the time it’s just too expensive.

I agree. The prize table whining is what get's me. All the these people with a sense of entitlement. Get rid of the prize table together. Too much butt hurt going on!

 

[Rob01]

Wow it’s funny how someone that does not even compete in tactical has the biggest stick up his ass about the division. Is this really an issue? Go get a 308 and crush the best tactical guy, bet the biggest shit talkers couldn’t.

Clarification on who in this post you are speaking of?

 

[JustSendit]

Clarification on who in this post you are speaking of?

The Thomas guy, specifically.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The Thomas guy, specifically.

No, asshole. I take issue with a whole division being wasted on 18 people who aren’t utilizing it with the original intent.

It’s a circus division.

 

[JustSendit]

I agree. The prize table whining is what get's me. All the these people with a sense of entitlement. Get rid of the prize table together. Too much butt hurt going on!

I agree, but this is literally not been spoken, this animosity for tac division at the comps I’ve been to. Seems like an internet thing by some people to “reserved” to announce their issues directly to the tac guys. But I don’t shoot everywhere maybe it’s all the conversations out west.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Keep the division, and implement some rules to return it to the original intent. Or get rid of it.

“Tactical Class” with 30lb .308........el oh el

 

[JustSendit]

No, asshole. I take issue with a whole division being wasted on 18 people who aren’t utilizing it with the original intent.

It’s a circus division.

Lol you’re talking the “intent” of the tac division? It’s the circus division?

yeah nothing circus about 25lbs rifles, that need hit indicators because they’re such pussy hits on steel. No all of PRS is clearly far from it’s “intent”.

 

[Rob01]

Keep the division, and implement some rules to return it to the original intent. Or get rid of it.

“Tactical Class” with 30lb .308........el oh el

I got you buddy. I shoot my 14.5 pound .308 with factory 168 ELDs. You can count on me. LOL

But honestly if you look back at the early days a lot of people handloaded .308s for matches. I know I did.

 

[Lowlight]

I have seen bitching on the tac class, mostly after the fact and on FB,

The issue is, they know the Series can be vindictive towards people who publicly make waves, so many have learned to hide their discontent or bring it here under a pseudonym so they don't get labeled a trouble maker.

Even Ryan Hey made public slams about the division

 

[Dthomas3523]

I got you buddy. I shoot my 14.5 pound .308 with factory 168 ELDs. You can count on me. LOL

But honestly if you look back at the early days a lot of people handloaded .308s for matches. I know I did.

I’m fine with hand loads in current tac class.

The factory suggestion is if they made a new limited division.

 

[Lowlight]

We've gone so many pages nobody can keep up or even know what they are debating anymore LOL

 

[Rob01]

Hey something to do while sheltering in place. LOL

 

[Dthomas3523]

Lol you’re talking the “intent” of the tac division? It’s the circus division?

yeah nothing circus about 25lbs rifles, that need hit indicators because they’re such pussy hits on steel. No all of PRS is clearly far from it’s “intent”.

Go back and read the original rules for tac. Specifically laid out the intent.

And when you call a class “open” you are allowing for the division to change. Which is has.

Which is why Frank has suggested a “limited” class. A class that would return a lot of the original intent to the game. Not all, but a lot.

 

[Lowlight]

Hey something to do while sheltering in place. LOL

I forget Pot is not legal where you are...

 

[JustSendit]

We've gone so many pages nobody can keep up or even know what they are debating anymore LOL

I think what is on the first page sums it up. I just don’t like the attitude towards the people participating in tac, I got it some have ridiculous rigs but at the same time plenty of guys shoot normal stuff, and I’ve definitely been/seen mil dudes breakout 118lr from work and blast. It happens.
I think it’s cool to participate in a gimped class that’s definitely frustrating. We can talk about changes
Ect but as it is, I don’t have a problem with a guy taking a trophy for volunteering to suffer on a 6mph wind day.

 

[RRW]

No, asshole. I take issue with a whole division being wasted on 18 people who aren’t utilizing it with the original intent.

It’s a circus division.

If you are not competing in it why should you give a fuck. People should worry more about themselves than what other people are doing How does the Tac Class affect you personally?

 

[Dthomas3523]

If you are not competing in it why should you give a fuck. People should worry more about themselves than what other people are doing How does the Tac Class affect you personally?

Or, people want to see the game grow.

So, which do you think will attract more people.......a class which has been around a while, 18 people shoot in and is basically an inside joke at this point? Or, try something new which might attract more than two squads at a local match?

That is why I “give a fuck.”

 

[Twitchy]

Keep the division, and implement some rules to return it to the original intent. Or get rid of it.

“Tactical Class” with 30lb .308........el oh el

I read the 2020 Rule Book and saw nothing about intent. Where are you finding intent?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I read the 2020 Rule Book and saw nothing about intent. Where are you finding intent?

The original intent when the division was formed.

It now been dropped from the description.

It’s now just a place for 18 people to shoot .223 or .308

 

[RRW]

The original intent when the division was formed.

It now been dropped from the description.

It’s now just a place for 18 people to shoot .223 or .308

Again why should this bother you. This is just a hobby, nothing more. Are you worried some guy shooting a 308 may jump ahead of you at the prize table? Again I think the prize table is the biggest downfall to the sport in this world of self entitlement. Unless you are placing in the top 5 at every match shoot better yourself. If that's not your beef , if some guy wants to shoot a 223 or 308, how is this a detriment to the game when at least they are out there shooting, having a good time with buddies and learning to be a better shooter. It's the arrogance that gets me, you are only relevant if you shoot a 6 or 6.5 mm caliber, if you don't you are a circus. This attitude turns away more shooters than it brings in imo.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Again why should this bother you. This is just a hobby, nothing more. Are you worried some guy shooting a 308 may jump ahead of you at the prize table? Again I think the prize table is the biggest downfall to the sport in this world of self entitlement. Unless you are placing in the top 5 at every match shoot better yourself. If that's not your beef , if some guy wants to shoot a 223 or 308, how is this a detriment to the game when at least they are out there shooting, having a good time with buddies and learning to be a better shooter. It's the arrogance that gets me, you are only relevant if you shoot a 6 or 6.5 mm caliber, if you don't you are a circus. This attitude turns away more shooters than it brings in imo.

Again, I’ll repeat myself. The current class doesn’t attract enough people.

I don’t care what class they develop. Just develop something that attracts more people. Same thing with ladies class.

Apparently this is too hard for you to grasp. The current classes are not progressing the game in any significant way. They are stagnant. Time for a change.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also, I’ve given away everything I’ve picked off a prize table for the last couple years. So, quit bringing that up as if it matters.

 

[RRW]

Again, I’ll repeat myself. The current class doesn’t attract enough people.

I don’t care what class they develop. Just develop something that attracts more people. Same thing with ladies class.

Apparently this is too hard for you to grasp. The current classes are not progressing the game in any significant way. They are stagnant. Time for a change.

Actually it's not hard for me to grasp. It's just a game and I don't take it too seriously. The PRS is not be all end all. I was active duty for 12 yrs and in my 23rd year as a LEO. I am issued a bolt gun and that I take seriously. I shoot matches not because I give a shit about what someone else shoots, I shoot them because I learn and it makes me a better shooter competing against people that are better than me. Guys were shooting precision rifle matches long before the PRS came on the scene and there didn't seem to be as much whining or butt hurt going on. Too many people with their panties in a knot these days. We can agree to disagree.

 

[clcustom1911]

Exactly my point. And since the majority of those shooting TAC are not Mil/LE why not have a Mil/LE class and drop TAC.

What if I'm not Mil or LE, but shoot 308 for work?

 

[Rob01]

What if I'm not Mil or LE, but shoot 308 for work?

No one cares! You will have to shoot open as that is what the gods of PRS declare! The Tac class is an abomination against the gods. Lol