TBAC 30P-1 vs Ultra9 accuracy

[corey4]

this thread probably could have gone in the stupid questions or suppressor forum, since i couldn't decide, it ended up here.

Specs:
GAP Hospitaller on a Defiance Deviant (Templar V2) 308, 24” fluted
KRG Whiskey 3 Gen5
TBAC Ultra9 and 30P-1
Razor Gen2
Atlas bipod
FGMM 168
All shots 100yds

A little bit of back ground info before we get started on this journey. For starters, I know the rifle shoots. It's an honest 3/8 to half MOA, and I'm not even a good shooter! I am very out of shape and I smoke (which I hate), my breathing behind the rifle sucks, and my follow thru and shot calling is nonexistent. It was getting to the point that shooting at 300 (furthest I can go) was getting boring. It'd do 1-1.5" groups at 300. My next goal is to be proficient at the dot drills. Preferably half MOA dots...center punched. I also want to get into more dynamic shooting that isn't just prone or from a bench.

So I finished up early with work yesterday, and thought, "It's been a few months since I shot, so hell yeah!". Well, the rifle was giving me fits beyond belief yesterday. For the life of me, I couldn't get a five shot group under 1". Most groups were closer to 1.5". I tried everything...I took the rifle down completely and retorqued everything the same way I had it previously. Still shitty 1" groups. Might as well been a damn 870 I was shooting! Next was the scope. Took the scope assembly all apart and retorqued the same as last time. Still nothing. Now I'm getting ready to flip. It couldn't be the ammo, I have shot 4 different lot numbers (I buy FGMM 168 by the bulk) INCLUDING this lot number with 3/8-1/2moa results. It wasn't the weather. It was beautiful yesterday. A few gusts of wind, but no big deal. F-it, I went home and had a few beers bitching to the ol' lady how I suck and hate shooting and how I'm not gonna be ready for the class I'm taking in a few weeks lol.

So here comes today. Again, finish up work early and I'm off to the range to conquer this bitch. Maybe I was just having an off day yesterday. Same...damn...results...I was pissed. The only thing that has changed since last time I was out was my shiny new TBAC Ultra9 that I received in January and took for it's maden voyage yesterday. I took a few puffs of my cigarette that I hate so much and thought, "Nah...there's no way it could be the can". So for shits and giggles, I threw on my old, out dated 30P-1 and shot a few 5 round groups. Well holy steaming shit cakes, the rifle shot normal. Ain't no freaking way. I put the Ultra9 back on...870 scatter gun groups again. WTF. Well maybe it is the can? I did something I haven't done in a few years, I shot unsuppressed just to see what would happen. What happened was I realized shooting unsuppressed sucks. I also learned that my rifle, other than the POA-POI shift, shot the same groups as my 30P-1. Now I'm really puzzled. I had another stupid cig and thought about the weight difference between the 2 cans. Harmonics? Maybe? I don't hand load and don't fully understand the mumbojumbo talked about in the reloading forum, but I do have a Magneto Speed! (which is the first time I used by the way lol) So I did 10 rounds each; 10 30P-1, 10 Ultra9, 10 unsuppressed. I just shot into the berm and didn't do any groups because that isn't the data I was after. The results are listed below:

30-P1 Ultra9 Un
2684 2687 2676
2702 2688 2690
2685 2697 2686
2708 2695 2684
2692 2696 2694
2683 2680 2689
2699 2699 2707
2695 2708 2667
2695 2710 2684
2705 2693 2694
Avg 2694 Avg 2695 Avg 2687
SD 8.8 SD 9.1 SD 10.7
ES 25 ES 30 ES40

I am not sure 100% what all these numbers mean, but I think I have a good idea. The reason I did this was because people are always talking about how the cans affect FPS vs unsuppressed, "slow the bullet, speed it up, doesn't do anything", and with the different weight of the cans, I figured what the hell it wouldn't hurt to record a few numbers just so they are there and for the smart people here to try and help out.

To my untrained eye, it looks like the numbers from the 2 cans are comparable but I don't understand why the difference in group size between the 2 cans. The pics below are a good average sample of group size for each respective can and round count and not cherry picked to say, "hey look at me with my 2 shot group with both holes touching!". I did shank a few shots as you will see in the pics.

So what gives? Any insight from people that actually know what the hell they are doing with these tools?

EDIT TO ADD:
for reference, the circles are 1"

 

[samb300]

Very interesting. I don't have any insight for you other than to say give Zak or Ray at Thunderbeast a call and see what they think. Or move this over to the suppressor forum where they are likely to see it. Good luck!

 

[schmi015]

I dont see anything too terrible with your groups. Make sure your can is tight. My other advice would be to start doing some cardio and stop smoking (nicotine is a stimulant and makes your hear rate go up) it doesn't help your shooting. Your second photo with only the 30-P vs U9, the U9 has vertical stringing to your shot group which would tell me its either your breathing or when your barrel gets warm it starts to string.

Also try shooting some ammo other than 168's, not sure what class you are planning on going to, but 168's were known to not transition well from supersonic to subsonic at distance usually stuff past 600 yds. .

 

[Zak Smith]

From the pictured groups, I do not see a statistical difference between group sizes. On screen, the max extent of the uns group is larger or the exact same size as the top left 30P-1 group.
There is more vertical stringing in that one U9 group vs the 30P-1 group, but your uns group has a large vertical spread with the low left included also. If you want us to take a look at the can, we'd be happy to, of course.

 

[TimK]

It may well be you. I say that from looking at your groups on the 30P-1. Maybe it was something intentional, but your points of impact were dramatically different on the two groups. Both groups were small, but the bullets struck in very different locations relative to what I assume was your point of aim. This kind of thing (wandering zero) is almost always due to inconsistency in the shooters position.Try this as an experiment. Shoot a group of five without breaking position. Shoot another group of five where you come all the way off the gun between shots. Stand up and walk around. If the second group is much larger, you'll know you need to work on a consistent position.

If all of the above proves true, then I think the tiny difference you see in group sizes may well be shooter induced.

BTW, I have those same two cans and both are hammers. No detectible difference between them (except the Ultra is a little quitter.)

 

[corey4]

I dont see anything too terrible with your groups. Make sure your can is tight. My other advice would be to start doing some cardio and stop smoking (nicotine is a stimulant and makes your hear rate go up) it doesn't help your shooting. Your second photo with only the 30-P vs U9, the U9 has vertical stringing to your shot group which would tell me its either your breathing or when your barrel gets warm it starts to string.

Also try shooting some ammo other than 168's, not sure what class you are planning on going to, but 168's were known to not transition well from supersonic to subsonic at distance usually stuff past 600 yds. .

i have not noticed any difference with a warmer barrel compared to a cooler barrel. when the barrel heats up, the only thing that affects accuracy is barrel mirage affecting my sight picture. the can is tight. but now that you mention it, the 30p-1 needs a few minutes to cool off before i can remove it, the U9 comes off right away. i try not to smoke too much when i'm shooting. i noticed a few years ago what you mentioned. if i do have a smoke, it' when i know it will be awhile before im ready to get back it.

It may well be you. I say that from looking at your groups on the 30P-1. Maybe it was something intentional, but your points of impact were dramatically different on the two groups. Both groups were small, but the bullets struck in very different locations relative to what I assume was your point of aim. This kind of thing (wandering zero) is almost always due to inconsistency in the shooters position.Try this as an experiment. Shoot a group of five without breaking position. Shoot another group of five where you come all the way off the gun between shots. Stand up and walk around. If the second group is much larger, you'll know you need to work on a consistent position.

If all of the above proves true, then I think the tiny difference you see in group sizes may well be shooter induced.

BTW, I have those same two cans and both are hammers. No detectible difference between them (except the Ultra is a little quitter.)

POI were sorta intentional. i get a different POI from the 2 different cans. it is zeroed for the U9. on one 30p-1 group, i didn't move my turrets, on the other 30-p1 i did move the turrets so i can do a dot drill. the UNS group was just aiming at a random dot on the target below just so i could shoot a quick group. the wondering zero isn't shooter error. i have done the build and break drill before, and due to my check weld, my "zero" will wonder high .2-.3mil. this is something i am trying to work on and why it was so frustrating when shooting the U9, it's just not as consistent as the 30-p1. a few time vertical stringing has been brought up. i will pay more attention to the can being tight.

im not sure if this has come across as a bitch session about TBAC. it is NOT. if i has come across that way, i apologize. it was just something that struck me odd with the inconsistency.

 

[briang7511]

possible you may have to tune your load a little for the supressor. i would imagine slightly different harmonics with each can and without.

 

[corey4]

that was one of my thoughts, which is why i did the unsuppressed group. i have another U9 that is brand new (bought 2 at the same time) so i am going to the range today to do some testing.

i'll be taking; 30P-1, 2 ultra9s and saker 762

 

[schmi015]

It does not come across as bitch session about TBAC. You've simply experienced something you haven't encountered before. I'm really curious to see how the two U9's compare against each other and if there are any poi changes between the two. To finish you should shoot a 10 round(2x5) group alternating the two U9's after each shot. Keeping the same poa.

 

[STLSteve86]

Hey Corey, I still have some hand loads from this gun that I havent pulled down. I don't know how to get it to you but you can have it if you want? I also think the 2lb trigger pull is a bit much but that me.

 

[corey4]

he steve, thanks for chiming it.

i'll get a hold of you later today or tomorrow.

i did go to the range and did some testing. im even more confused now lol. i'll post up pics and a write up in a day or 2.

 

[dannyh]

Have you shot the cans again? I like to know the results. I to also own a ultra 9 can but not shot mine yet. I hope mine does not do that. However I do think you should send the one back and let them check it out. Before you do check the other one as it maybe same way. There cans suppose to improve accuracy or least stay the same not get worse. Point of impacts suppose to stay the same or very close.

 

[corey4]

i have not been out for the last few months. i ended up driving myself nuts lol. zak from tbac called me and he asked me to try some things. i did go in late april and tried different loads for each can and tried putting my magnetospeed per request from zak on the can to add weight to see if that changed anything with the harmonics with the theory being if the extra weight shrunk the groups then the issue if there is one is just harmonics. i shot 160 rounds that day and did not get any where with the testing. i think i drove myself to frustration and fatigue may have set in which isn't good for shooting groups.

i tried 168 fgmm, 178 eldm, and hornady 168 bthp (i need to get more of this stuff! it shot GREAT in the GAP when i tried my 30P-1. not sure with the U9 because i didn't make it that far) with and without the magnetospeed to look for harmonic differences. i was attempting to achieve 5 5-shot groups for each variation to get a decent baseline for each test. it didn't work out so well lol. i got fed up and shoved the rifle in the safe and haven't looked at it much.

i would not hesitate to purchase a tbac. again, my OP wasn't a trash on tbac at all. just an anomaly in my case i guess. i'm not much of a summer time guy cuz i hate the humidity, but i'll try and get out this week if i can find a calm day.