Tell us about/UP DATE

[Gunfighter14e2]

the gunsmiths that have lied to you about price, or completion time.
No names At This Time
If you have a gunsmith that kept their word, tell that as well.

 

[bogeybrown]

Marc Soulie at Spartan Rifles and James "JD" Thomas at High Speed Shooting Systems in WA both delivered exactly what I asked for. No price changes, no bullshit, and met or exceeded their anticipated timelines.

 

[PD DUMPER]

AREA 419 Jon delivered. He missed the time line, but with a call I found out the cerecote application did not meet his standards and he was redoing it.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I've never had an issue with any gunsmith. Most have been outstanding.

Though I have a colleague from the PD who has had a major issue with a guy in the York, SC area.... getting an accurized AR done. To the point of being really ludicrous.

But I've worked with 'smiths all over the country. Some of the best... Kirk Merrington (a British Doubles Restorer.... when you have an English Double worth as much as a small house... he is your man)... Larry DelGrego... amazing. Doug Turnbull. Amazing. Bar-Sto precision and barrels. Amazing. Several 'smith's around Vermont (including engravers John and John Adams and Winston Churchill)... and a couple of barrel and action guys up in the Champlain Islands. Amazing.

One bit of advice... if you get a gunsmith that seems too good to be true... either price-wise, promises or delivery... ask questions. Lots. If it seems too good to be true... yeah, you guys know the rest of the sentence. The best guys are backed up, often a year or more. The ones that say "Sure, I'll have this in a week...." Well, ask yourself... why isn't this dude busy? Does he have 50 people working for him and no backlog? Well fair enough. But a backlog, IMHO, is the signature of someone who has demand, for a reason.

Interested, OP, on the back-story or genesis of this post? Have an issue with someone? Or some good advice on working with folks. Great topic. Thanks for starting the thread. But wondering why you started it?

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[bogeybrown]

Although I was considering these guys I saw in Guns & Ammo, I think it was Tactical Rifles out of Florida, any input?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

^^^ Evil... pure evil. I have an ad from them in an old issue of a Machine Guns or similar... It has an article on a Swiss AA gun that I own. I have been tempted to post it for Frank's benefit. Because I think it will make is blood pressure rise.

Awesome, Bogey. Purely Awesome!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Interested, OP, on the back-story or genesis of this post? Have an issue with someone? Or some good advice on working with folks. Great topic. Thanks for starting the thread. But wondering why you started it?

Problem, not yet but we are getting to that point, I'm old fashion an expect people to be of their word. Time line was X over the phone, same upon drop off. Checked around and everyone I "trust" said the same he's GTG. Price quoted is within norms, but when someone gives me a date I either expect it to be done then, or a call explaining what changed . We are 2.5 times past the X time frame now. I have never had one get back on time or at the quoted price.
Beginning to think many of them were used car salesman to start with. What I'm having done, my lathe will not do, but should I buy another I will make sure it will do it all. Looking a Jet 14x40ZX with many the adders, but spending 15-18k to re-barrel one stick is pricey. LOL

 

[Maggot]

I'm old fashion an expect people to be of their word.

Me too. Good luck.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

but spending 15-18k to re-barrel one stick is pricey. LOL

er.... what???? No... that's a price point at which you buy an entire machine shop.

More info, please. Because that's 10X the price of barrel blank plus the best created fitting ever fitted. ever. I mean ever.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

No... that's a price point at which you buy an entire machine shop.

Nope 7.5HP 3.125 pass thru, lathe new is 12K then add shipping, spider, taper, 5C's , DRO, different chucks (to my liking), updated tool post, cutting bits, boring bars, threading tools, Phase converter/Or M/G set, installation labor it all adds up. Some of my tooling could be used on the new one but most will not.
When it comes to machines I "Normally" do not buy used, I've had better long term pay outs going new, and being done with it.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

This is a run of the mill "asking" price but it lacks everything I want with it. With these specs I can do other money projects, as well as many one off's in the power generation/power dividing world.

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/m...-w-newall-dp700-dro-taper-attachment-7-1-2-hp

 

[bogeybrown]

er.... what???? No... that's a price point at which you buy an entire machine shop.

More info, please. Because that's 10X the price of barrel blank plus the best created fitting ever fitted. ever. I mean ever.

Cheers,

Sirhr

It took me a moment also, Gunfighter was saying that the lathe he plans to buy + tooling is 18k, and it wasn't worth the investment to do this one rifle he had sent off.

On my build with Marc he and I had agreed on a pretty specific barrel contour that proved harder than anticipated for him to source. He was way more upset than I was about the delay. We just talked it out, found a suitable replacement that he liked and didn't change our price point and we were back on track. I was overseas at the time anyway, so I told him to focus on guys screaming about wait times and get mine done as he could. He's never been anything but honest about his work load, shop delays, whatever. Once I spoke to him on the phone I knew I was going to be taken care of and never stressed over it.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Nope 7.5HP 3.125 pass thru, lathe new is 12K then add shipping, spider, taper, 5C's , DRO, different chucks (to my liking), updated tool post, cutting bits, boring bars, threading tools, Phase converter/Or M/G set, installation labor it all adds up. Some of my tooling could be used on the new one but most will not.
When it comes to machines I "Normally" do not buy used, I've had better long term pay outs going new, and being done with it.

On one hand, I agree. But I bought my 5HP 10ee Monarch for 5K... with a lot of tooling. And a DRO included. Took me more to get it on the floor, leveled and hooked up to an inverter and running. But machine tools that are not CNC multi-axis these days are not crazy spendy. And you don't get much better than a 10ee Monarch. That's the varsity in lathes.

There are some amazing bargains on used tooling out there. But, to your point, it does take a lot of shopping around and making sure you don't get... hosed. And a tool is one thing. The tooling can add up to many x more than the lathe itself.

And back to the original post... if someone who has an installed setup is trying to charge 15K for a barrel install.... then I call BS. Real BS.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

And back to the original post... if someone who has an installed setup is trying to charge 15K for a barrel install.... then I call BS. Real BS.

No, his price for a 30 cal blank install threaded for a can using my A19 reamer an head space gauge (300wm) and truing the reciever is in line with others around here 500.00 total (my barrel).
The issue I have is not calling or over stating the time frame. Some one tells me X time I expect it then or at the very least a call explaining why not. Not the I'm doing you a favor by even doing it shit.
Had I known it was going to take 2-3 times as long I don't have a problem with that but tell me up front not after it's been there for the up front stated time line. Only ask folks to tell me the truth, guess that's to much to ask for these days, an insulting when you bring it up to them?

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

The 10ee Monarch how big is the pass thru? Found it is less than 1.5". I would like at least 3"+ as some of the gear shafts I would be turning, are 2.75 to 3" X 60" long

 

[Michael]

2 instances, different gun plumbers.
First guy chambered and turned a blank for me. 4 months, looked like it was threaded on the outside. Found out he was an alcoholic.

2nd guy, took a 1 of a kind rifle to him to have the receiver drilled for a scope mount. Said 10 days tops.
15 days, no call. Shop visit. Found the rifle hidden behind a trash can near the back door, not tagged or logged into his book.
Called ATF. Wished him a blessed day.

All the other experiences have been ok.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Gunfighrer.... Monarch's have 1.5" passthrough. Actually, an RCH less. But you are right.

That's why I am trying, in the next few weeks. to buy a LeBlond gap-bed. For my live-artillery machining. Nothing like a 36" swing to make it easy to restore a Watervliet cannon barrel!

But for gunsmithing at the level of SH's precision rifles... a 1.5" diam passthrough is way more than needed. Who has a bull barrel greater than 1.5"???

I won't argue that there are a lot of options out there. And a Monarch is not a panacea. But IMHO, for any shoulder-fired bolt gun, the t0ee is an amazing bit of kit. And gunsmithing for said rifles can be handled on it. To extend my humble argument... anyone trying to charge 10-15K for a barreling... is ripping off a customer. I will admit that my statement that "I can buy a machine shop for that' is a tad aggressive... a tad. Being funny, yes, that's me. But, really, would you pay 10K for a re-barreling?

In greatest respect for your points and argument.... I think that the OP is being taken-advantage-of.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

No, his price for a 30 cal blank install threaded for a can using my A19 reamer an head space gauge (300wm) and truing the reciever is in line with others around here 500.00 total (my barrel).
The issue I have is not calling or over stating the time frame. Some one tells me X time I expect it then or at the very least a call explaining why not. Not the I'm doing you a favor by even doing it shit.
Had I known it was going to take 2-3 times as long I don't have a problem with that but tell me up front not after it's been there for the up front stated time line. Only ask folks to tell me the truth, guess that's to much to ask for these days, an insulting when you bring it up to them?

And my sincere apologies for not seeing this before I posted. I think $500 is in the range for this service. In a reasonable timeframe. I would expect, had I asked, a few weeks. Month or so. But that's me.

I go back to my statement that the best in the business are backed up. I am ok with that. I don't 'need' stuff done now. I may 'want' it. But I don't need it.

I don't argue any of your thoughts Gunfighter. My original post on this thread was to ask about why the concern. And I think it is fair to ask how much time, along with how much cost.

Again, quality takes time. Quick and cheap, to me, raises worries.

I often joke that 'If I need weapon-XXX this fast... I probably should not have it!!!"

But I understand timeframes, and agree that a promise is a promise.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

It's not about time frame, it's about telling the truth up front. Instead I've been lied to by 4 different smiths and I'm sick of it. That is why I'm thinking about a new lathe that will do everything I need to include one off stuff for R&D in the power generation/ power dividing world. I have a hard time with folks that tell you one thing to get it in the door, then another after the fact. Then when you question them they act like it was a favor even to take it in which is pure B/S from the get go.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

It's not about time frame, it's about telling the truth up front. Instead I've been lied to by 4 different smiths and I'm sick of it. That is why I'm thinking about a new lathe that will do everything I need to include one off stuff for R&D in the power generation/ power dividing world. I have a hard time with folks that tell you one thing to get it in the door, then another after the fact. Then when you question them they act like it was a favor even to take it in which is pure B/S from the get go.

Can't argue that!

I, personally, am not opposed to someone telling me "It will take me 6 months." At that point I can decide if that's ok. If it's not.. I can find someone else. If that timeframe (and price) are ok... sure. I can do that.

Gunfigher, you and I are in violent agreement. Quality, lead-time and promises must all be in line. Or it makes more sense to make investment to do ourselves.

Post some pix of the finished project!

Cheers.

Sirhr

 

[spaniel]

Had a couple smiths I was considering, emails/PMs back and forth talking about the job. Honestly it was a smaller job, but one leading to bigger things. At some point they lost interest, decided it wasn't worth their time, I don't know, but rather than just politely saying so they went radio silent. As a result they lost thousands of dollars in future business.

Ended up going with Mark Penrod for that particular job. Answered all my questions, quoted a delivery time, and IIRC actually delivered a bit early. Flawless work. Threw in a shellholder for the wildcat for free because I didn't have one. Frankly as a result of me being relatively handy and cheap I've elected to do all further builds myself the barrel nut way, but if I ever needed another smith job, I'd call Mark first.

 

[powdahound76]

Mile high = awesome on quality and in time frame (ahead of quoted time).

LRI = awesome. They didnt quote a time and I didnt care as it was winter and I was over busy with work and family. It was faster than I thought.

Once had Gunsmoke shop (of TV show infamy) before the TV show fix a safety on a Walther I nearly stole from a guy since it was broke. They did a fine job too. Then Rich got all dumb....... wonder if his stepdaughter would come check my gun?

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

If institutional memory serves me correct.....here on the Hide, early on there was some new poster yaking about being a really good machinist/gunsmith and had five years experience.

I called him out on his bravado and mentioned that metal cutters mostly got one years experience five times over.....pissed in his Cheerios.

So fast forward to current times....i will say that I keep all the good gunplumbers in my area close to the vest pocket.....and i feed them work where whenever possible due to my current career choice.

 

[AIAW]

Yeah, that's not a bad idea. For you it's good networking also.

Down here in Austin, Mark Pharr pretty much does everything that I can't do at my friend's machine shop (threading, etc) if I want it done locally. He has a very awesome old-school Monarch lathe (1950's I believe) that is just as tight now as the day it was put into production.

Mark's work is top-notch, but he doesn't have the fastest turn-around. I'll take slow but correct any day over sloppy but fast.

 

[vh20]

But I've worked with 'smiths all over the country. Some of the best... Kirk Merrington (a British Doubles Restorer.... when you have an English Double worth as much as a small house... he is your man)... Larry DelGrego... amazing. Doug Turnbull. Amazing. Bar-Sto precision and barrels. Amazing. Several 'smith's around Vermont (including engravers John and John Adams and Winston Churchill)... and a couple of barrel and action guys up in the Champlain Islands. Amazing.

Nice to find a kindred spirit with an appreciation for fine doubles. I learned to do a lot of this work myself, and have restored/repaired quite a few in order to add to my collection that I could never have afforded otherwise. One name to add (by reputation, as I have never personally availed myself of his services) is Hugh Lomas, another Englishman like Kirk, and well known for his skill in putting barrels back on-face.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Gun is home printed 2, 5 shot groups during work up at 200 yds, just less than 3/8" total inches not moa. He did a great job. 103 rds today no copper at all. 300wm, 24", A191 chamber. A great, lite woods gun. It will out shoot the #7 barreled GAP w/o issue, so should have a little fun with this one.

 

[ArmyJerry]

LONG RIFLES outright lied to me. First rifle I sent to them they said two weeks or so, but dam I had it back in 6 days. Forced me to take off a workday to spend at the range. RWS 2 rifles, Phoenix Custom 2 rifles and LRI 4 rifles all been great to work with, found them all on this site. One other I got to mention, took a few months but told me it would before hand,just before hunting season, does great work, Larry Racine, LRP in NH. Great Guy.

 

[Veer_G]

LONG RIFLES outright lied to me. First rifle I sent to them they said two weeks or so, but dam I had it back in 6 days. Forced me to take off a workday to spend at the range. RWS 2 rifles, Phoenix Custom 2 rifles and LRI 4 rifles all been great to work with, found them all on this site. One other I got to mention, took a few months but told me it would before hand,just before hunting season, does great work, Larry Racine, LRP in NH. Great Guy.

I'll second that. Larry does great work and is easy to deal with. On the subject at hand, I shipped the parts for a 5.45x39 precision upper build in mid-August last year, thinking that I might have hopes of seeing it back before the end of the year. Nope. Time just dragged by, and I figured that asking once at the end of December was cheeky enough, as there was no expressed time guarantee. So I got a call from him yesterday to tell me that it was done, and, "Oh, by the way, it shot 1/2 MOA off sandbags with a 4.5 lb., two-stage trigger." When I called today to settle up, he was picking my brain about where I sourced the bits and pieces, as he allowed that the upper was going to make "a nice little rifle." Sometimes, you just have to have faith, but it pays to research and check the BBB, too.

 

[Dirty D]

RW Snyder beat his own ETA twice and didn't charge me enough, he was going to replace a part out of pocket that the mfg. should have stood behind so I sent him a check that covered the mfg. FUBAR.