Justin,
Great job. Thank you.
BTW, I like it that you question everyone and everything, including me.
Great job. Thank you.
BTW, I like it that you question everyone and everything, including me.
Try not to get all pissed off, but after reading a number of your comments, I respectfully ask for you to document your bona fides. You certainly have opinions, and are not shy about expressing them in a somewhat contentious manner. As a reader of this thread and the article about cleaning .22's with the U-Tube video that you disagreed with, I am wondering what makes you such an expert?Since when does bad rifling have deposits ON TOP of the underlying metal ? Any crap barrel fish yields tool marks, inclusions, rough finish INTO the steel, not on top of the steel and since it's probably lead, you can brush it until your freaking arm falls off without much improvement when it gets bad. That's why they make specific lead remover like No Lead. Different approaches for different issues.
Youse gots lots of learning to do.
Not pissed off at all, anybody can easily check who I am and my bonafides in rimfire.Try not to get all pissed off, but after reading a number of your comments, I respectfully ask for you to document your bona fides. You certainly have opinions, and are not shy about expressing them in a somewhat contentious manner. As a reader of this thread and the article about cleaning .22's with the U-Tube video that you disagreed with, I am wondering what makes you such an expert?
Not pissed off at all, anybody can easily check who I am and my bonafides rimfire.
contentious may come in where you lay down easily veritable facts and then have guys who simply want to argue.
I seem one of very few, very few, active competitors that will post here.
Ever stop and wonder why most don’t ?
Sometimes answering a question with a question is appropriate. For Justin, polishing is not particularly tough. Why do you suspect makers of match grade, hand lapped SS barrels, CF and RF alike leave a final finish around 200grit give or take a bit ?Polishing is an industrial process that I have more than a passing experience with.
Lead will not polish steel in the absence of an abrasive.
The question to answer would be, what kind of abrasives are introduced by the combustion process. Interested in where this goes.
I would guess that it is to hold the lube in RF, no idea about CF ... so I guess that is probably wrong.Sometimes answering a question with a question is appropriate. For Justin, polishing is not particularly tough. Why do you suspect makers of match grade, hand lapped SS barrels, CF and RF alike leave a final finish around 200grit give or take a bit ?
Same finish RF CF. Not really rough, per se. those barrels shooting match ammo have a nice film of warm lube throughout, Taper is rarely more than .0003”, no sanding it just get a bit tighter.I would guess that it is to hold the lube in RF, no idea about CF ... so I guess that is probably wrong.
Next guess ... since those barrels tighten down on the bullet as it approaches the muzzle the 'roughness' would sand the bullet smaller rather than squishing it smaller. I think I would like mine sanded please.
So what you are saying is a barrel interior must have a 200 finish and never be smooth to carry the lube?Same finish RF CF. Not really rough, per se. those barrels shooting match ammo have a nice film of warm lube throughout, Taper is rarely more than .0003”, no sanding it just get a bit tighter.
The real reason is that if really polished, bbl won’t hold/distribute lube properly and the slug skids down the tube.
Well, they do do it for a reason. A RF barrel needs texture in there to distribute a nice layer of warm lube.So what you are saying is a barrel interior must have a 200 finish and never be smooth to carry the lube?
Thanks Tim and Justin, I haven't even had breakfast and I've already learned something today.Well, they do do it for a reason. A RF barrel needs texture in there to distribute a nice layer of warm lube.
That’s what the bullet actually rides over on it’s way to the muzzle.
That would seem to not include you.WTF is a 200 grit finish?
People who know these things talk in microinches Ra or microns Ra
So when we see a smooth barrel we should rough it up to a 200 finish again?Well, they do do it for a reason. A RF barrel needs texture in there to distribute a nice layer of warm lube.
That’s what the bullet actually rides over on it’s way to the muzzle.
Sure, as long as you have a fixture, can cast a lead lap, know how to use it including proper indexing.So when we see a smooth barrel we should rough it up to a 200 finish again?
OK I didn’t read the whole thread.....Tim,
If you have no interest why post? If any of us want information about inside barrel finish we can get that from @Frank Green who knows a little about the subject.
Most here enjoy @justin amateur 's input. Even when we disagree, it's interesting. One thing we like about Justin is that he makes no pretense of rimfire greatness, he just puts his opinions and test out for all to see.
You do not post your name but want others to utilize our internet sleuthing to discover your greatness. I don't think anyone cares. Could be wrong.
Who said I have no interest ? my name is Tim, yours is what rth?Tim,
If you have no interest why post? If any of us want information about inside barrel finish we can get that from @Frank Green who knows a little about the subject.
Most here enjoy @justin amateur 's input. Even when we disagree, it's interesting. One thing we like about Justin is that he makes no pretense of rimfire greatness, he just puts his opinions and test out for all to see.
You do not post your name but want others to utilize our internet sleuthing to discover your greatness. I don't think anyone cares. Could be wrong.
What does it, perhaps, show ?At this time in the project, does anyone want to change their opinion
on barrel wear improving accuracy, during the first thousand shots?
How about the ability of primer residue on lead projectiles acting as an abrasive surface finishing tool?
Instigator? Who? Me?
Frank,OK I didn’t read the whole thread.....
So what’s the short version?
From the little reading I did... it seems like the discussion is about a rough vs a better/smoother finish in the bore of a rimfire barrel is the debate?
Later, Frank
Yeah, generally, however over the years more than a couple rocket scientists have tried to polish a few to a mirror bright finish with results that were not too hot, including leading which is rare in a custom barrel shooting high grade ammo.I dont see a barrel getting "to smooth". As Justin mentioned with a engine we need a cross hatch to maintain proper lubrication. It takes more cycles to remove that then most of us have time to shoot. Lets take a b model cat with 1 million miles on it. Liners still have the cross hatch. I pick a B model because they are mechanical and produce more carbon generally then a E or C. I know all of the above with over the 1m and they still have a cross hatch. Less then original on the high wear sides but there.
1m miles is typically 20,000+ hrs lets say 20k
Average rpm 1400 ish depending on use case. Sooo 1,680,000,000 cycles. Ok ok only half of those cycles involve a "explosion" cut the number in half or quarter divide by 1000 see if I care. Thats a lot of ammo!!
I know its not apples to apples but it involves heat and carbon. The sharp edges of the cross hatch wear off but the pattern stays.
Tim,Who said I have no interest ? my name is Tim, yours is what rth?
Always nice to have somebody weigh in on rimfire who’s total informational post total seems to be about Zero.
Did I ever refer to any level of “greatness” , simply factual, easily verifiable, information.
What does it, perhaps, show ?
you have random groups often with random ammo, shot with no attempt to be factoring in condition ( flags), so what, if anything does it show ?
It could show Wednsday was a better day than Monday. It could show a bunch of random stuff.
What, exactly does so few groups under less than optimum circumstances show ?
I mean it definitely showed you had fun, hey who am I to say don’t have fun but hell, you might as well have shot in a prom dress and makeup.......proof you shoot better in drag.
Two, maybe factoids for you.
Most high performing BR barrels, the best of breed, the vast majority of them perform their best right from the get go.
A “few” take a bit. the “ guess” is because some chambers.......not barrels, need a little seasoning in the way they foul with carbon/lead requiring good breakin technique to yield max performance.
This, perhaps, also speaks to my comments about barrel cleaning.
Last I heard a chamber is connected to the barrel.
The second....if you really become a student for some of this stuff ( I post zero original info) you invariably run into @HuskerP7M8 , aka Landy Landescaper who is the single most obsessed testing SOB you are ever going to find and usually needs thousands upon thousands of rounds in a tunnel for a conclusion.
So if you lay down a bunch of groups in the big .300’s and durring you test you yield a bunch in the little .300’s, now we have some useful data.
But, shit, what do I know. Have fun.
I never ever heard anyplace it was reported, probably proprietary in house only info.Can anyone verify this?
Eley primer compound uses 30 to 60 micron silica particles
as the igniting agent in it's cartridges.
I've done some digging but haven't found any verification.
Well with such distain for kids rifles shooting spots, why are you wasting your valuable time on this thread?Tim,
My name is Richard Hale. Most here know that but for those ignorant of the fact there it is.
You are craving attention and affirmation of your greatness on a site where no one gives a shit. You should go back to staring in the mirror. You are your own fan club.
I am very happy my crowning achievement in life is not shooting a kids rifle at a spot on a paper target.
That would seem to not include you.
Potato, potahtoh.
About the same stuff as valve grinding paste,except without the paste, aluminum oxide.
Usually start rough lap at 100 or so then do final lap/ taper lap around 200.
I say around because some, seem to continue the same stuff of the lead lap, usually suspended in oil, but it breaks down and becomes finer.
I guess when you lap thousands of barrels you get to know about the how and when that happens.
Here is a prime example of what I referred to elsewhere about contentious responses.
Guy enters into the conversation with a meaningless post to appear smart, more or less, simply to make a bullshit argumentative post.
Now, I ‘m a big boy, comes with internet forum posts,does’nt bother me... BUT that doesn’t mean I can’t smack’em around a bit.
It takes about 15 seconds to check and see Clover offers a variety of lapping oxides, all expressed in grit size.
There is a reason that signature is at the bottom.
What, engine heads? Boiler vessels?I've forgotten more about honing and grinding than you'll ever know.
You're Dunning-Kruger in action
What, engine heads? Boiler vessels?
Anything resembling barrel lapping? Ever been within 100 miles of a custom barrel shop ? Ever owned a handmade SS barrel? Talked to a single soul that makes them ?
Let’s just go with ahhhhhhhh....no.
Thanks for staying after the correct answers rather than idiotic assumptions. Question may also be is it possible a minuet amount of the glass particulates are imbedded in the interior of the rifling and stays there permanently? To an extent protecting the bore from the new abrasive? I have noticed a very dark, glossy buildup in my bores after a period of time. Say 2000 rounds. After cleaning it seems to be gone until I do the same thing again.That's right Hoyt....add to the workload.
For scale, this is 3M 30 micron Micromesh paper at the same microscope setting.
So those silica particles are what? 60 to 150? That's after combustion and depositing in the bore.
Always nice to hear from somebody with 8000 posts yet apparently not a single solitary one contributing anything to rimfire information.One of the downfalls of a small mind that has achieved slight success in a tiny niche is the arrogant assumption that others know nothing. Thus you get “tiny Tim”
Assuming you are reading what's available online, do you assume today's priming is the same or close to that? You might be surprised.The patents I've been reading state the silica can act as an erosion barrier.
As to how is not explained. That will require someone with a better background
in both physics and chemistry. Not my area of expertise.
Not pissed off at all, anybody can easily check who I am and my bonafides in rimfire.
contentious may come in where you lay down easily veritable facts and then have guys who simply want to argue.
I seem one of very few, very few, active competitors that will post here.
Ever stop and wonder why most don’t ?