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The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

300WSM

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 29, 2004
1,389
6
WI
I bet this is the next big thing to go down and will cause trouble in 2011

The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It Explode?

Voices with worried tones have been on one end of the line recently, and municipal bond fund representatives have been on the other. It's just part of the fallout from the story about municipal debt that aired on CBS's 60 Minutes on December 19.

Financial analyst Meredith Whitney has municipal bond investors and financial professionals alike buzzing about what she said on the program.

Whitney compared the severity of the unfolding municipal debt crisis to the sub-prime mortgage crisis, and said that at least 50 to 100 municipal defaults are likely. She also said that the mounting municipal debt story has not received enough attention -- but expects it to become major news in the next 12 months.

Some call her an "alarmist," and claim that her forecasts of municipal defaults are just not going to happen. But no less than the governor of New Jersey says that "this time is different" and agrees that more bad news is ahead for state and local government debt. Illinois' state Comptroller acknowledged that the state is a "deadbeat" when it comes to paying its bills.

EWI's Robert Prechter was been way ahead of this crisis. Here's what he wrote in Conquer the Crash, 2nd edition, p. 255:

"Don’t rely on all governments to pay their debts. In the 1930s, Fulton County, Georgia, where I grew up, was formed from two bankrupt counties that defaulted on their bonds. By 1938, state and local municipalities had defaulted on approximately 30% of the total value of their outstanding debt....If the issuers of your tax-exempt bonds default, you will have the ultimate tax haven: being broke. Given the huge extent of today’s municipal indebtedness, such failures are inevitable."

Those words originally published in 2002, in the first edition of Conquer the Crash -- "way ahead of this developing crisis."

The July 2010 Elliott Wave Financial Forecast provided this analysis:

"California is 'mired in what may be its most dire fiscal crisis ever;' New York is attempting to avert a complete shutdown of state government by instituting a $1.60-a-pack tax increase on cigarettes (raising the cost to $11 per pack); Illinois is teetering on the brink of default; and 43 other states are 'Facing Greek-Style Deficits.' With all this going on, one might expect to see flagging interest in muni bonds. But municipal bond holdings appear more popular than ever. In fact, foreign investors increased their holdings of munis to $71.9 billion in the first quarter of 2010, a 79.9% increase from the first quarter of 2009.

"The total was 10 times the level of 2000. U.S. households also increased their muni holdings to more than $1 trillion for the first time...The interest of the public and foreigners, two classic late-comers to financial trends, indicates that the trap may snap shut at any moment.
"The snare first started to tighten on investors in 2008. The chart of U.S.-municipal-bond-to-U.S.-Treasury-bond swap spreads [see chart below] shows how fast premiums rose in the fourth quarter of 2008 for insuring muni bonds against default relative to the cost of insuring Treasury bonds of similar maturity."



The same issue of the Financial Forecast noted long-standing warnings about the muni market, yet "investors vaulted past the red flags in 2007-2008. What they ignore now is the train wreck itself...As the economy turns south again, state and local governments will contribute powerfully to the slide."

It's clear that you cannot count on the mainstream media to alert you to economic trends in time to protect yourself and your family. Their alerts come way too late.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

article in NYT about the same thing. City in Michigan wants to default but the state won't let them for obvious reasons. Also the NYT had an article about how the pension systems can't be sustained. Some of the pensioners make 6 figures. Taxpayers can't afford that.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

Due day, for all that new math is near, and nothing can be done about it except a total an complete collapse. We can't tax, nor cut our way out either. Many folks are about to learn the difference between Perception and Reality. Sad thing is many that had nothing to do with causing the problem will not live thru it. Those that have caused it, are thinking it won't effect them. They will be proven wrong.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

+1.

The chickens are finally coming home to roost. It sure took a long time to get to this point.

Let's get out the lawn chairs and beer and enjoy the spectacle.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

public unions are destroying local municipalities. year on year 4+% wage increase demands and tiny (if any) contributions to pensions and health care - for life! Hardly anyone in the private sector gets benefits like those - not to mention in the private sector if you do a bum job you get canned, not protected.

In a deflationary era it's down right abusive to demand wage and benefit increases. Personally, if the unions won't wake up and join the rest of Americans in fighting this recession (rather than contributing to it) then I hope there are enough municipality bankruptcies that will just break union contracts so we can start again on a sensible fiscal footing.

Excessive union demands and behavior are a major (though not sole) contributor to why US is highly uncompetitive vis-a-vis labour costs.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

I don't see any collapse here. They will simply raise the debt ceiling and continue to mortgage future generations. The only way to stop this cycle is with a coup.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

muni's are state bonds and or local bonds. county, city state.

the debt ceiling has to do with the federal/national debt.

If city county state local isn't safe then those rates go up and those projects etc get cut etc etc. There is nothing the federal reserve can do except buy those bonds too. They will destory our dollar in the process.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">public unions are destroying local municipalities. year on year 4+% wage increase demands and tiny (if any) contributions to pensions and health care - for life! Hardly anyone in the private sector gets benefits like those - not to mention in the private sector if you do a bum job you get canned, not protected.

In a deflationary era it's down right abusive to demand wage and benefit increases. Personally, if the unions won't wake up and join the rest of Americans in fighting this recession (rather than contributing to it) then I hope there are enough municipality bankruptcies that will just break union contracts so we can start again on a sensible fiscal footing.

Excessive union demands and behavior are a major (though not sole) contributor to why US is highly uncompetitive vis-a-vis labour costs.
</div></div>

This is such BS. The reason why the companies left was the fact that they could get Slave Labor to build their product for next to nothing and still sell it to the American Public at Top Dollar.

Another reason is that we don't Tax the imports the way the other Countries Tax our Exports.
America has become a Thinking Nation instead of a Working Nation. This is going to be a downfall in the end. We're to willing to let the Mexicans and other Foreign Workers do our Sweat work for us.

Union IronWorker
LU 118
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trapshooter12</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">public unions are destroying local municipalities. year on year 4+% wage increase demands and tiny (if any) contributions to pensions and health care - for life! Hardly anyone in the private sector gets benefits like those - not to mention in the private sector if you do a bum job you get canned, not protected.

In a deflationary era it's down right abusive to demand wage and benefit increases. Personally, if the unions won't wake up and join the rest of Americans in fighting this recession (rather than contributing to it) then I hope there are enough municipality bankruptcies that will just break union contracts so we can start again on a sensible fiscal footing.

Excessive union demands and behavior are a major (though not sole) contributor to why US is highly uncompetitive vis-a-vis labour costs.
</div></div>

This is such BS. The reason why the companies left was the fact that they could get Slave Labor to build their product for next to nothing and still sell it to the American Public at Top Dollar.

Another reason is that we don't Tax the imports the way the other Countries Tax our Exports.
America has become a Thinking Nation instead of a Working Nation. This is going to be a downfall in the end. We're to willing to let the Mexicans and other Foreign Workers do our Sweat work for us.

Union IronWorker
LU 118 </div></div>

Maybe that fact that we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world has something to do with these corporations leaving. Also, as you have mentioned there is cheaper labor which these corporations don't have to pay into a pension for or medical care. However, before you go bashing these corporations for trying to make money for their share holders; remember this, 401K plans and pension plans invest in the stock market; these are the biggest investors when grouped together.

Also, in the line with Event Horizon, the French experienced this problem when a few events happened. When USSR became just Russia and when they EU Joined together there were a lot of eastern block countries that were poor and needed jobs. Well the French gov.'t made doing business in France very difficult so, these French companies move to these eastern block countries where they could get cheap labor. You see in France they only have a 30 hour work week and they get a month of holiday. Also, once you get a job it's impossible to fire you because you have the right to work. So, French companies moved and do not hire French people because they can't get rid of them if they don't work. So Frances unemployment rate is 9.8% right now. However, since 2000 the French unemployment rate averaged at 10.3%. I don't want to be like the French.

Right now the US Fed gov.t has a debt of 112,000,000,000,000 of unfunded liabilities. Looks like the local and state gov.t have no where to get any funds. http://usdebtclock.org/#

Jamie
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't see any collapse here. They will simply raise the debt ceiling and continue to mortgage future generations. The only way to stop this cycle is with a coup. </div></div>
I agree they will continue to raise the debt ceiling and every 12 years or so then backroom deals between govt, bankers, and stake holders who will remain unnamed will FORGIVE DEBT in exchange for other consideration. Then you mix that in with market corrections that will scrape the wall street table of any profits too dumb to be left in the market at "correction time". Sprinkle in a lil raise in gas prices, a new green tax or 2 to save momma earth via somebody getting rich off it, a short term spike in commodities prices and whatever else will help to ease the lost profits pain from all that bad debt and poof all is well again for the stakeholders........ its all a ponzie scheme and always has been.

Ok seems like some smart money guys here. Help me out here if lack of money is the problem, SERIOUSLY why dont we print or better yet just create more like they did for the banks? , Ok and dont say inflation because I havent seen it rear its head significantly in my 4 decades on the planet. So if the Fed can make up BILLIONS even Trillions to re-stock the bar for the next bankers all night binge bonus spending spree because they are too big to fail episode, why cant they just create more money in the computer credit columns then pay the chicoms back and start fresh?
Wouldnt a devalued dollar be good for the country? Inflation is that uncontrollable ? Really there is no cure? Again Im no money manager but it seems like when the Fed really really wants too for WHO it really wants too it can and it does it simply (like a good game of THE SIMS) creates magical Billions upon Billions of credits/dollars then doesnt even print it out then presses some keyboard somewhere and poof the bankers are happy again and miracle of miracles theres no inflation??? GASP how did they do that hmmm,
Im just a simple man someone smarter tell me in 500 words or less how this whole thing is gonna end, for real, not speculation, hows it all gonna come out for main street USA?
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

Check the Jimmy Carter years there was big league inflation Mortagage rates were 18-21% AAA rated corporate bonds paid 15% and Tax Free municipal bonds paid 12%....

Inflation indices do not include Food and Energy...looked lately at the price of gas or commodities like corn? There is inflation already, it just is not in the Inflation Index calc.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: woodspider</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't see any collapse here. They will simply raise the debt ceiling and continue to mortgage future generations. The only way to stop this cycle is with a coup. </div></div>
I agree they will continue to raise the debt ceiling and every 12 years or so then backroom deals between govt, bankers, and stake holders who will remain unnamed will FORGIVE DEBT in exchange for other consideration. Then you mix that in with market corrections that will scrape the wall street table of any profits too dumb to be left in the market at "correction time". Sprinkle in a lil raise in gas prices, a new green tax or 2 to save momma earth via somebody getting rich off it, a short term spike in commodities prices and whatever else will help to ease the lost profits pain from all that bad debt and poof all is well again for the stakeholders........ its all a ponzie scheme and always has been.

Ok seems like some smart money guys here. Help me out here if lack of money is the problem, SERIOUSLY why dont we print or better yet just create more like they did for the banks? , Ok and dont say inflation because I havent seen it rear its head significantly in my 4 decades on the planet. So if the Fed can make up BILLIONS even Trillions to re-stock the bar for the next bankers all night binge bonus spending spree because they are too big to fail episode, why cant they just create more money in the computer credit columns then pay the chicoms back and start fresh?
Wouldnt a devalued dollar be good for the country? Inflation is that uncontrollable ? Really there is no cure? Again Im no money manager but it seems like when the Fed really really wants too for WHO it really wants too it can and it does it simply (like a good game of THE SIMS) creates magical Billions upon Billions of credits/dollars then doesnt even print it out then presses some keyboard somewhere and poof the bankers are happy again and miracle of miracles theres no inflation??? GASP how did they do that hmmm,
Im just a simple man someone smarter tell me in 500 words or less how this whole thing is gonna end, for real, not speculation, hows it all gonna come out for main street USA? </div></div>

The Fed has been able to print more money because it has been used as the worlds reserves. The US dollar is/was accepted every where because of it's value. Just recently China and Russia have decided to trade with each other in their own currencies and not the US dollar. HSBC will no longer exchange pesos for US dollars in Mexico and they are doing this because they don't want to be stuck with it. Opec is deciding on whether or not to use their muti-national currencies to price their oil.

A little history, the British Sterling was used for 200 years by the world until the Brits made more of it and devalued it. Then the US dollar became the worlds currency so to speak. If we devalue the dollar, like we are doing now, we to will see the same fate as the Brits as far as the US dollar being world currency.

Also, if you have $100 in the bank and the Fed devalues the dollar by 30%; the 100 is only worth $70. So, if gas goes up you have less money to purchase gas. If gas goes up so will everything else because it has to be shipped somewhere. So, your $70 will have even less purchasing power. So, if NightForce still wants to make a good profit they will have to mark everything up by at least 30% to get the same value of profit. This is why you see a those Gold commercials right now because it holds it value and as the dollar is devalued gold goes up in value.

Jamie
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

"Whitney compared the severity of the unfolding municipal debt crisis to the sub-prime mortgage crisis, and said that at least 50 to 100 municipal defaults are likely"

I have been wondering about this for a while. It would be tough to weather another crisis like that and not have a total collapse, bank run and just general pandemonium. glad my home is paid for and no other debt. Most funds stashed in gold. "Fortune favors the prepared". Get ready folks, we've been warned here.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

I forgot to add that many countries are looking for a new world currency instead of using US dollars. The reason for this is that they are trying to protect their interest in what they feel will be the collapse of the United States and the US dollar. Russia is one of those countries. Russia seems to be preparing itself for some kind of situation, I don't know what as of right now. However, the weak EU and US dollar combined with they are increasing trade of Natural gas to China; along with it's trade with Iran, who is sitting on the largest oil reserves in the world, could mean something.

Jamie
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

America does have one thing foing for itself.....How many is it now, I think 15 Carrier Groups, and they all run of uranium. And they all work......cant say the same for anyone elses. But this could get REALLY interesting in the next few years.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't see any collapse here. They will simply raise the debt ceiling and continue to mortgage future generations. The only way to stop this cycle is with a coup. </div></div>

Who is going to buy our worthless paper much longer? It's not backed by anything but words. The true total debt, (short an long) exceeds the GDP and their borrowing more everyday. The biggest transfer of wealth ever, is just about over as well. As is the shell game that's been run on new math with creative thinking/financing from the mid 80's on. Ever wonder why Uncle wants everyone 62 an older to do a reverse mortgage?
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

Forgive debt. I love this chit! Sorry but some pension or mutal fun or hedge fund or all of the freaking above holding 100million 250million there in CA muni's isn't going to forgive it. THey are going to take it straight in the tale pipe.

Raise the debt ceiling. That's like if my credit cards have max 50k on them and I go spend 50k and then they give me another 10k and I spend that and then another 10k and I spend that and so and etc etc and SOON I CAN"T PAY IT AND DEFAULT. The ability to pay is why I have a credit card limit. The US GOVT or STATE GOVT or ANYONE besides GOD has a limit. We are getting close ot ours with our national debt approx 100% of GDP. Just because all knowing congress raises the limit doesn't mean we can pay it!

Create more mone! Sweet - it's called hyperinflation. It's called debasement. This strategy hasn't worked in the last THREE THOUSAND YEARS it's not going to work for us. Yes that's right three THOUSAND YEARS. check your history.

4 decades. ok dude here's your inflation. What cost $100 to buy in 1970 now costs $547. Now if I was retired in 1970 and living on fixed income. I'm screwed! It's wrong in so many ways it's pathetic.


Inflation is pretty much the work of the federal reserve. They have expanded the money supply at an avg of ~6.48% since approx 1950 while our population has grown only at ~1.25% per year. All this does is create a larger rich poor gap.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: woodspider</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't see any collapse here. They will simply raise the debt ceiling and continue to mortgage future generations. The only way to stop this cycle is with a coup. </div></div>
I agree they will continue to raise the debt ceiling and every 12 years or so then backroom deals between govt, bankers, and stake holders who will remain unnamed will FORGIVE DEBT in exchange for other consideration. Then you mix that in with market corrections that will scrape the wall street table of any profits too dumb to be left in the market at "correction time". Sprinkle in a lil raise in gas prices, a new green tax or 2 to save momma earth via somebody getting rich off it, a short term spike in commodities prices and whatever else will help to ease the lost profits pain from all that bad debt and poof all is well again for the stakeholders........ its all a ponzie scheme and always has been.

Ok seems like some smart money guys here. Help me out here if lack of money is the problem, SERIOUSLY why dont we print or better yet just create more like they did for the banks? , Ok and dont say inflation because I havent seen it rear its head significantly in my 4 decades on the planet. So if the Fed can make up BILLIONS even Trillions to re-stock the bar for the next bankers all night binge bonus spending spree because they are too big to fail episode, why cant they just create more money in the computer credit columns then pay the chicoms back and start fresh?
Wouldnt a devalued dollar be good for the country? Inflation is that uncontrollable ? Really there is no cure? Again Im no money manager but it seems like when the Fed really really wants too for WHO it really wants too it can and it does it simply (like a good game of THE SIMS) creates magical Billions upon Billions of credits/dollars then doesnt even print it out then presses some keyboard somewhere and poof the bankers are happy again and miracle of miracles theres no inflation??? GASP how did they do that hmmm,
Im just a simple man someone smarter tell me in 500 words or less how this whole thing is gonna end, for real, not speculation, hows it all gonna come out for main street USA? </div></div>
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ps - from everything I am reading major component states that are critical to the vote will likely get a bailout.

Municipalities will be on their own.



Good luck </div></div>

Why does that not surprise me?
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

TrapShooter12 "This is such BS. The reason why the companies left was the fact that they could get Slave Labor to build their product for next to nothing and still sell it to the American Public at Top Dollar."

Intel CEO Paul Otellini: "I can tell you definitively that it costs $1 billion more per factory for me to build, equip, and operate a semiconductor manufacturing facility in the United States. The rub: Ninety percent of that additional cost of a $4 billion factory is not labor but the cost to comply with taxes and regulations that other nations don't impose."

What we have done to ourselves by electing the same types of people over and over again is DAMNING evidence of our ignorance and gullibility.

People get the government they deserve...
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

While municipal debt default is a huge issue, Event Horizon hit the nail on the head with his commentary about unfunded pension liabilities. This will be as big, or a bigger issue than the municipal debt. In decades of being held hostage by the labor unions, we have promised retirement benefits that CANNOT be delivered. What we have is a gigantic Ponzi scheme and with the baby boomer generation reaching retirement age, it is nearing collapse in a rapid fashion. With the retirements that these union contracts are promising, people are receiving more payouts in the first few years of their retirement than they contributed to the fund in decades of service. This is exacerbated by the bullshit rules allowing some employees to pad their retirements by cramming in the overtime in the last couple years of their career. Defined benefit pension plans are the problem and should be illegal. It makes no sense to tell someone what they will be paid in their retirement while not tying it to the amount thy contribute during their career. As pensions have begun to fail without great fanfare, they have been bailed out by the PGBC (our tax dollars) but that is also unsustainable. People can cry foul all they want about bashing the unions but the wool has been pulled over the eyes of the true workers in this country. The featherbedding and skimming has gone on by those in the unions who who really don't work for a living and it is those who will not get the retirements they were promised and the taxpayers who bail them out, who get left holding the bag.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

We need a balance budget amendment, that's the only way any of our Governments(city, county, state, federal) will stop this insanity.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

Don't know about some of you but the baby boomer stuff gets old. We were force to pay from the gate, then all those dollars (huge amount) were sucked out of the lock box an slid into general funds to cover the growing GF gap long ago.

Blaming BB'ers is like blaming a one car crash on the car. Nobody cared were all the stolen funds went all the years we were propping up the general. Now their trying to teach/tell you it was our fault, why would that be?
They liked the big influx of our money they forced us to pay all these years, now they want to kick us to the curb, and blame us,... like WTF, over! Remember they set the rates an forced us, to comply, not the other way around.
Always follow the money. Doing so you'll find the lie's as well as who told them, then the true end game will hit you between the eyes.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

@ Gunfighter14e2

I do not blame the baby boomers because they didn't take the money out of SSI. However, when a person retires they receive more money they they have put in and that is bad. They receive more than the interest would have been on the monies they put in. It's a way of redistribution of wealth.

When Chit will hit:

I would suggest that you stock up on some food and enough to last 6 months. Because when this hits the grocery store will be barren within a couple of days. This is going to hurt and hurt everyone in some way. I guess sometime in July/August they will have to raise the debt ceiling again (this will make two times this year). That's when the chit will hit the fan.

Jamie
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

I don't think so, we had no say in the set up, where the money was invested, or how it was spent.
It was Pie in the Ski from the get go, but by "Rule of Law" they took it and said here's the deal, just like FICA. Now they have to suck it up, just like we did when they stole the money. They can take it from the estates of those that voted for it, spent it other where, and forced it down our throats. Their about to understand you can't have it both ways, I hate it for them but that's tough. How about all those that paid and crooked just before drawing, or shortly there after? What about all those that were forced to pay FICA and never drew? Life's a bitch and it's going to get worst shortly. Who's the largest voting block, that turns out, or does that go away for us as well? People are told to be responsible for their actions, that applies to Uncle as well. I lived all my life well within my means, all the while knowing what could happen later in life an adjusted for that.
If a dumn ass Indiana boy could start figgering it out in the 60's and prepare for down the road, surely all the brain trust that runs this country could too. Then again I'm a realist thanks to my Grandfather and US Army, and never bought in all the new math and greed like many. Wonder how all those SUV, boat, bike, and big house payments, or address's are working out for many? Many folks made a conscious decision to go in debt for things they could not afford, now it's all home to roust. Not my problem.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

I feel your frustration. I was taught that if you don't have the cash you can not buy it. Unfortunately, all those who live on credit will bring down all those who pay as they go. The US dollar will be worthless. So, all the municipalities and states that spent to much will look to the Fed. This is when the Fed will have to raise the debt ceiling a second time this year to bail them out. You know we have to keep basic services to protect the public, we can't let it just shut down.

States like CA will look to the Fed for help and get it. Then other states in trouble will line up for help too. The debt ceiling will have to be raise again to pay for this bailout. However, there will be resentment from the people through out the country and they will not want to see the debt ceiling rise.

Jamie
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

Don't feel frustration. I knew and was told in the 60's where all this was going to end and put away, planned, an self taught for it.

If it all goes to shit today it will not effect me or my family's quality of life to the end, at all.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

Odd about Social Security- many who wish to say it needs to be privatized say you could make MORE money investing in the private sector than from what COL increases SSI pays out.

It really doesnt redistribute wealth as it is capped. Only a certain total amount of wages are taxed and many who decry the welfare state as class warfare infact recieve more of their income from other sources than wages.

If you stop and think on it those who have paid in since 66 have paid in with dollars worth far more than the ones they recieve in retirement. If you believe NF has to increase the price of optics to gain the same worth then Social Security is a bargain, taking in dollars worth far more and paying out ones worth far less.

Now on the laundry list of what liberals have done to ruin our capitalistic society since President Wilson.

Our nation was the largest EXPORTER of durable goods prior to the stockmarket crash of '29. We were urban and industrial. What helped us be self suffient wasnt magic, our population was much smaller, the standard of living was far lower (anyone want to go back to days when a refrigerator was a luxury? How about airconditioning? back to the days when a work injury was just too bad for you and your family?) We were just starting on the mind boggling race to exhaust our domestic resources and could set very onesided deals for resources with other nations.

The huge inflation/depression cycles since the very beginning of our Republic were not caused by big government but little if any regulation in the money supply.

Capitalistic credit expansion through the 20's lead to great wealth and then a great crash, not unlike what we just had.

The commodity market is now a huge speculative casino. Demand isnt use of the commodity but demand for shares of that commodity. No one gave 14 dollars a bushel for wheat yet driven by expert predictions of world wide poor yeilds and growing demand for flour in china the commodity price was that high. That collapsed right before harvest.

Municipal bonds- wonder what they funded? Perhaps bribing those poor over taxed corporations to locate in their area? Corporations may have the highest tax rate but never pay that rate as the myriad of reports that show the likes of Walmart paying none even with sweet profits for the stockholders.

But it makes a great storyline
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GF14 - through the lens of history - Baby Boomers are the problem. </div></div>
Boomers did not cause this, they were forced to open their wallets by law. The only reason the dates are to 64 is to massage the math, for LBJ's needs at the time and today's numbers. Again, Not my doing or my problem, I planned for my retirement long ago. Those that drank greed an filled up on glutton to be the Jones caused this, I could care less what happens to them.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fewenuff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TrapShooter12 "This is such BS. The reason why the companies left was the fact that they could get Slave Labor to build their product for next to nothing and still sell it to the American Public at Top Dollar."

Intel CEO Paul Otellini: "I can tell you definitively that it costs $1 billion more per factory for me to build, equip, and operate a semiconductor manufacturing facility in the United States. The rub: Ninety percent of that additional cost of a $4 billion factory is not labor but the cost to comply with taxes and regulations that other nations don't impose."

What we have done to ourselves by electing the same types of people over and over again is DAMNING evidence of our ignorance and gullibility.

People get the government they deserve...


</div></div>

There is another side tothis problem. those countries where the jobs are being outsourced to have EXTREMELY LAX to NONE AT ALL regulations on how these factories pollute the enviornment, in China for instance there are rivers (like the Ohio in years past before clean up) that would butn....RIVERS THAT BURN? Not something I would want to live next to. I glad there is some awakening here. So if he built a factory that required proper enviornmental regulation; so that we dont have whole towns dieing of lukemia because XYZ corp is dumping radioactive thalium in the creek.

Its not the only reason but its one. Slave labor is another....want to be a slave...Ill pass. Granted the Unions have overdone it but there was a reason they were created...Ever heard of the Company Store? Vitrtual slave labor with no concern to safety. THATS why Unions came in...unfortunately, Power corrupts.....etc.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

You Baby Boomers did in fact cause this problem, you did it by voting and not voting, you are respondsible, but so are the rest of us, STOP BLAMING EACH OTHER start working to fix the problem, no excuses, I wrote my Congressman and Senator this week, WTF did you do?
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

Social security is a joke. I could buy a whole heck of a lot more with 12-13% of my salary.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You Baby Boomers did in fact cause this problem, you did it by voting and not voting, you are respondsible, but so are the rest of us, STOP BLAMING EACH OTHER start working to fix the problem, no excuses, I wrote my Congressman and Senator this week, WTF did you do? </div></div>

I've been writing for over 40+ years where you been? I don't have a problem with it all going to shit myself. I never drank the got's to have juice an never put myself or Family into a might lose it all corner.

Most folks in this country can't think for their self's, that's why it's in the shape it's in. They got caught up in keeping up with the Jones and got's to have now, instead of thinking about down the road.

I see it everyday, on this board and everywhere else. Those that get the wants then less than 3 months later or sometimes even before it gets built they have to sell it because XXX just happend. Same kind of planning the Government has done for all most 100 years. It mattered little want the voters wanted all along, they do as they please once in. The last POTUS that did for this country was Ike the rest to a person did for their self or those that funded them the most, Fact.

In the second to last election you had more tit suckers pulling the lever than those that supplied the milk. In the last one enough folks said fuck this we've had enough. Problem is they were only 50 years to late. I believe in allowing everyone that wants rope to have it, even though you still have to teach them to use it properly most of the time.

Why do you think smoke and mirrors is used all the time? Now, they have the media pumping it's the boomers fault up your ass, and all that can't think for their self's buy that crap as well. You need to smell whats being pass for as the truth, most of the time it won't pass the blind smell test, let alone with eyes open.

Here again before you can think, you have to have a open mind. That's been a bad thing these last 75 or so years. Folks that can think for their self's, can't be fooled/brain washed into thinking the B/S from the media or else were is the whole story. Wag the Dog is used everyday in this country to mold jello minds into a single front.

Let me ask you this, lets say,... lets just suppose, there were no boomers at all, where do you think this country would be right now?
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">muni's are state bonds and or local bonds. county, city state.

the debt ceiling has to do with the federal/national debt.

If city county state local isn't safe then those rates go up and those projects etc get cut etc etc. There is nothing the federal reserve can do except buy those bonds too. They will destory our dollar in the process.</div></div>

I've been wondering if there is an invvestment opportunity in tax-free municipal bonds. I've never been in that market but I am looking for ways to keep the tax man out of my investments. With money hard to come by, the interest rate on the right bonds might be attractive.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lexington</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've been wondering if there is an invvestment opportunity in tax-free municipal bonds. I've never been in that market but I am looking for ways to keep the tax man out of my investments. With money hard to come by, the interest rate on the right bonds might be attractive. </div></div>

You will lose money.

Muni's are in dire straits because so many states are being choked to death by outrageous public union wage and benefits demands coupled with the decline in state tax revenues. Public pensions are on the verge of going bankrupt and State's ability to pay is becoming more and more questioned.

The time to consider investing in State bonds will be when enough State's have gone bankrupt so that they can shed the yoke of unions and start fresh. Providing of course they don't pander to the same self-interested parties once they come out of bankruptcy.
 
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It was just a thought. My broker has been nudging me to get in the market and I frustrate him when I say I am going to sit on my cash for the foreseeable future. The muni idea popped in my head recently but I have not applied much thought to it. I think I'll wait for better fundamentals.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lexington</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was just a thought. My broker has been nudging me to get in the market and I frustrate him when I say I am going to sit on my cash for the foreseeable future. The muni idea popped in my head recently but I have not applied much thought to it. I think I'll wait for better fundamentals. </div></div>

Your broker needs to earn commissions from you. You are his meal ticket. There is right now, a mass exodus of investors out of fixed income funds - by the professionals - just as more retail investors (you and me) are thinking of moving in...

The yields are high, but you need to understand, high yields are necessary because RISK is higher - hence why the bonds are so cheap... the best place is to put your money in cash. The US dollar will appreciate in value in the months ahead and so cash is an attractive vehicle IMHO. Don't believe all the hoo-rah over hyper inflation being just round the corner, it's nonsense. As evidence look to TIPS - when you see the price of TIPS rising while the prices of fixed incomes falls (with yields of course surging) then you can worry about inflation...

In regards to the equity markets, you have to understand that the buy-hold strategy is near extinction. The markets are more dominated by institutional players who play the markets with hugely powerful algorithmic trading platforms. I would suggest you identify those companies whose sectors, business and technology/products you understand so you can make informed, focused judgements on the value of the shares and likely future performance.

Just my opinion, not investment advice of any kind.
 
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Gunfighter Sir, my point is it's all our fault, yours mine there's, everybodies, I'm am not as old as you, but I do write(now thru email) to my elected officials, if everybody did what we have been doing our cities counties states and finally our country would not be in the debt ridden state we are in, we as a country need to stand together and demand that our books be balanced, our debts paid off, and tomarrow will be the better day we want for our children.

I think it is time to roll it back in the market, my 401k has grown 20% in the last year, why because I rolled it all out 4 years ago, buy low sell high, but we are not out of the water yet, looming oil prices could very well crash our recovery, or prolong the suffering, it's called risk for a reason.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want traction on the cheap </div></div>

Find out their moves off grid and any back door dealing's, traction will become easier. Like ice, some of it only requires sand, but others require salt and lots of it to stop a refreeze.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lexington</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've been wondering if there is an invvestment opportunity in tax-free municipal bonds. I've never been in that market but I am looking for ways to keep the tax man out of my investments. With money hard to come by, the interest rate on the right bonds might be attractive. </div></div>

You will lose money.

Muni's are in dire straits because so many states are being choked to death by outrageous public union wage and benefits demands coupled with the decline in state tax revenues. Public pensions are on the verge of going bankrupt and State's ability to pay is becoming more and more questioned.

The time to consider investing in State bonds will be when enough State's have gone bankrupt so that they can shed the yoke of unions and start fresh. Providing of course they don't pander to the same self-interested parties once they come out of bankruptcy. </div></div>


I just heard that speculators are buying up state and muni bonds. The reason for this is they believe the Fed will bail the states and munis out. Why not they bailed everyone else out.

BTW: I hope the Fed doesn't bail out the states or munis and the speculators loss big time. However, I don't think they would be doing it if they didn't know something.

Jamie
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

That's why you have to play on their level at times and when you do, they do not like it at all. Ask me if I care.

The best way is to work the crowd from the inside, if you can stand the stench.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

Somebody is going to pay this bill. Whether it comes out of the speculators' pockets, or yours and mine, the system is not going to be allowed to come apart at the seams.

Personally, I can't say whether that's good or bad; only that I believe the current system is flawed beyond the ability of band-aids to give it any new life. There is pain coming, more than we've seen, more than we can believe at the moment.

I just hope that somebody has a head that's stable enough not to try and recreate another one in this one's image. It's clearly not an image for the future.

I know it's easy to point fingers and criticize, and truth is, I don't have a viable answer. At this stage in my life, all I can do is to put my backing behind the younger generation and have faith that some of them have their heads on straight. So I do; I have no other choice.

Heinlein's <span style="font-style: italic">Starship Trooper</span> model boils down to what I call a <span style="font-style: italic">Voluntocracy</span>, whereby authority is reserved for those who forfeit a tangible personal and virtuous qualifying contribution to the common good. Not perfect, not well defined, but nothing else is, either. After what's come before, I'd be willing to back it.

The democratic republic is demonstrating its reality as a failed experiment. Suffrage needs to be treasured greater than as a free handout to anyone with a body temperature above ambient and a survival transcript that is based on subsistence at others' expense. Me work, me eat; you want some of mine, you better ask me personally, and nicely.

Time was, and not so many centuries ago; that in this locale, one did public work to pay their tax burden. Just a thought...

Greg
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

I see a lot fooey in this thread. This is one topic I follow more than firearms, and shooting. Coming from a former 11b, that should mean something, somewhere.

The current situation we see happening at this very moment was caused by Inflationary Business Cycles.

In this fancy chart here:
http://www.shadowstats.com/imgs/sgs-m3.gif?hl=ad&t=1295626238

We have the Monetary Supply broken down by sector, and type.

M1 is paper money that is circulating through the economy.

M2 is the paper money plus saving's type money, like saving's account's, money market account's, etc.

M3 is the total of M1 and M2 plus the aggregate credit of the entire economy.

As you can see clearly, the credit crunch already happened. What we are experiencing now is the after effect's, and the eventual second drop. It's called a Double Cat Bounce. The drop is typically in direct proportion of the high point. Which if you looked at the excess liquidity of the M1 values after the credit crunch, you'll notice that the values were propped up. That propping up created the situation we have now, where the credit is was moving up, but it was unsustainable as there was no sector's taking off to keep it going up. What that mean's, is that the credit that is in existence now is merely excess credit with nothing backing it. It's going to dry up again, and we are already starting to see the effect's of it. When it hit's, it'll be the breaking point of the Federal Government. They will not be able to cover the losses.

I understand that not all may understand this explanation, and I can go further into it, but that takes time.

Is there someone we can blame for this? Most certainly, the past 40 year's of Government Inflationary Monetary policy, and the Federal Reserve.

On a good note, Freddie and Fannie are complaining about having to pay their 150 Million in court fee's. No one really paid attention to the fact that they recoup $25+ Billion in property. Guess what, Ron Paul was right.


edit: couldn't get the image to display. Not sure why, so I just left the link to it. The site is owned by John William's. He's a brilliant economist.
 
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Thanks, Nisstyles. The chart says a lot, and backs what Ive been saying....since 1945 weve followed unsound economic policy. that wont be repaired in 2-4 years....a decade is more likely. were in for some awakenings.
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<span style="font-weight: bold">What that mean's, is that the credit that is in existence now is merely excess credit with nothing backing it. It's going to dry up again, and we are already starting to see the effect's of it. When it hit's, it'll be the breaking point of the Federal Government. They will not be able to cover the losses. </span>

What should be understood (but isn't) by all of America is that there was no such thing as a 'Housing Bubble'. The pundits point to the symptom and call it the disease. The problem is the excess of credit that has been flowing through the world and principally through America over the last several decades. The housing bubble was just the latest means of inappropriately putting that credit to work in an effort to keep all of the plates spinning. Consider the real possibility that if amortization periods were reasonable and prudent, we crossed the divide some time ago (1980's? 1990's?) between realistically being able to pay for the debt and being hopelessly broke.

An interesting parallel - what is a common occurrence in personal BKs - a spending spree right before the spigot is closed by the creditors..... Oh BTW - the 2011 deficit is now expected to be $1.48T

Back on point, <span style="font-style: italic">Washington Governor Chris Gregoire and Nebraska Governor Dave Heineman said in a joint statement on Tuesday that states would not use bankruptcy as a budget solution.

"The mere existence of a law allowing states to declare bankruptcy only serves to increase interest rates, raise the costs of state government and create more volatility in financial markets," they said</span>

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70O66220110125

Please allow me to translate - 'Hell no we are not going to reign in spending and piss off the very constituents that keep us in office. We are going to auger this mother in at full power and let someone else pick up the pieces.'

B/c to do something like this means oversight, means increased finance costs - means cuts, means smaller government, means an alteration to union obligations.


Good luck









 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please allow me to translate - 'Hell no we are not going to reign in spending and piss off the very constituents that keep us in office. We are going to auger this mother in at full power and let someone else pick up the pieces.'
</div></div>

You speak very fluent Politican, although I detect a slight snipery dialect.
 
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Those are great articles that would encourage people to go back to sleep until one thinks carefully about what they say.

<span style="font-style: italic">One method is to use the concept of a debt trap, where the bond yield is higher than the economy's nominal growth rate.</span>

(Second article)<span style="font-style: italic">The debt trap will close more tightly when a country has a higher debt-to-GDP ratio.</span>

It is important to understand that the Dollar is the world reserve currency (currently). It is important to understand that one of the principal reasons the Fed can merely print money is due to the Dollar's reserve status. It is important to understand industry trends and what industry remains in the US vs what has gone offshore, and the reasons for each. It is important to understand the trajectory of each of those trends. It is important to ask 'Will the Dollar continue to be the world reserve standard?' Emerging trends *may* suggest otherwise.

<span style="font-style: italic">Ideally, one would need the precise maturity profile of government debt to give an estimate of the cost, and one would need a crystal ball to figure out the long-term trend growth rate. I don't have those.</span>

That is laughable. No one knows what the terms of the initial loan from the FED were, nor do we know what the terms for every successive loan since 1913 have been. We don't even know how the money has been spent. With respect to GDP trending, ummm... we have exported much of our manufacturing; our per widget cost of manufacturing is substantially higher than the emerging 4 or BRICs primarily due to labor costs; we are largely service based, and telco advances make physical site selection less of an issue; the US continues to advance heavy taxation on corporations (currently #2 in the world at 35%), and continues to advance regulatory impediments to US industry relative to the rest of the world. So yeah, one needs a crystal ball to figure that out.

<span style="font-style: italic">One method is to use the concept of a debt trap, where the bond yield is higher than the economy's nominal growth rate. Countries cannot live in this trap for long without taking radical economy measures; otherwise interest costs eat up more and more of GDP.</span>

Umm... let's look at that. Up until 2001 treasuries had a relationship with a barrel of oil, in 2001 treasuries were decoupled and both have maintained independent trajectories since. (In 2000 the yield on the 10yr was @ 6.5% while Oil was trading for @ $28.00 / BBL - today a 10yr is 3.35% and a barrel of oil is $87.54)

Secondly there is this assumption that debt financing through treasuries is fully amortized in some period of time that is reasonable. Since we can not audit the FED to know what the terms of each individual loan really are - it is impossible to say. What we can understand is the following math:

PV = $14T
I = 1%
N = 10 yrs
PMT = $1.48T per year

Change the amort period (N) to 100 yrs and the annual debt service falls to $222 Billion.

Now what do you think the odds are the interest rate is 1%?

Now consider that only 50% of the citizens of the Nation pay taxes and the top 25% of earners pay 86% of all taxes.

Average life expectancy - 78.4 yrs. Average person pays taxes on what, 48 of those years (at variable rates)?

Is the bulk of the population currently younger than, or older than 35?

Can you say "ponzi scheme" that is more than obviously going to implode?



Who is John Galt?



Good luck
 
Re: The Municipal Debt Bomb is Ticking: When Will It E

Back to the two articles:

Let's all wake up and understand that the author is a schill trying to convince you not to pay attention to the man behind the curtain.

<span style="font-style: italic">One method is to use the concept of a debt trap, where the bond yield is higher than the economy's nominal growth rate. Countries cannot live in this trap for long without taking radical economy measures; otherwise interest costs eat up more and more of GDP.</span>

While that is one measure, and only one measure - he picked it. So lets talk about it in the context of facts.

**While I only look at the last 10 years - use the links provided and note that historic trend is for the relationship between each of these measures to remain much the same. The single difference, and why the last 10yrs have been so critical to our future, is the skyrocketing debt. It doesn't take much to see that the entire system is a ponzi scheme and at some point - don't know when - it will crash; particularly when you factor in the age demographics that make up the Nation.**

First lets review actual historic GDP growth from 2000 - 2010 % change based on chained 2005 dollar values http://www.bea.gov/national/

2000 - 4.1% 2006 - 2.7%
2001 - 1.1% 2007 - 1.9%
2002 - 1.8% 2008 - 0.0%
2003 - 2.5% 2009 - -2.6%
2004 - 3.6% 2010 - Not Available
2005 - 3.1%

Contrasted against the Debt http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm:

2000 - $5.7T 2006 - $8.5T
2001 - $5.8T 2007 - $9T
2002 - $6.2T 2008 - $10T
2003 - $6.8T 2009 - $11.9T
2004 - $7.4T 2010 - $13.6T

Contrasted against the yield on the 10yr http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h15/data/Annual/H15_TCMNOM_Y10.txt:

2000 - 6.03% 2006 - 4.8%
2001 - 5.02% 2007 - 4.63%
2002 - 4.61% 2008 - 3.66%
2003 - 4.01% 2009 - 3.26%
2004 - 4.27% 2010 - 3.22%

Again - the trend has been for fewer and fewer citizens to be responsible for increasing shares of the total debt burden. The bulk of the population is more than 35 yrs old. (Thus the paradigm is unsustainable into the future). The only way to pay the minimum balance (and falsely promise both solvency and security) is to enslave those who do pay taxes by running the amortization period out to well beyond the natural lifespan of an individual (mathematically it becomes impossible to pay off the debt).



Good luck