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"The Pacific"

So, let's see. Do some of y'all (and wade, because he's special) think our Veterans of Foreign Wars were all a bunch of naive dumb rubes who were brainwashed and/or coerced to fight for our country?

How's that view way up there on your high horse?
 
So, let's see. Do some of y'all (and wade, because he's special) think our Veterans of Foreign Wars were all a bunch of naive dumb rubes who were brainwashed and/or coerced to fight for our country?

How's that view way up there on your high horse?
Did the draft work that way ?

Yea.....uh, no.
 
anyone can be wrong,misled,misinformed,misguided. well,not some of the glowies on here. it's part of the human condition. happens in war,business,love medicine etc. intelligent,educated,stupid,ignorant,all people are subject to being misguided,mistaken,misdirected. in fact,many of the intelligent are quite susceptible. not all leaders are corrupt,stupid,misguided. but,at all levels most are in some of many ways. "those who seek power are not worthy of that power"-plato.
 
don't think anyone here is questioning the valor and sacrific of the men engaged in any war. applies to WWs,vietnam,1812,falklands,korea,punic,napoleonic,etc etc. the argument is about what they thought they were fighting for and what their rulers got them to think they were fighting for. yes,some wars are fully justified morally. the US has even been involved in a few. W1,WW2,vietnam and iraq are not among them.
every WW2 vet i have known,like my father, believed and did until their end that they were fighting for america,democracy and freedom.
many vietnam vets i know have come to believe that they were "brain washed" into believing those same things. most have let it go,many are still angry about it and being dumped and shit on when it ended.
fighting euopean WW2? allies,are you kidding? stalin and churchill manipulated the US into war to preserve their respective empires. france? what good has it done america after the 18th century? we paid them back with 116,00 deaths in '17/18. in payment they drug us into SE asia.
there is zero chance hitler and mussolini could have been any danger to us in west.hemis. they couldn't build "the bomb" and couldn't make a bomber capable of even bombing western UK. yea,sunk some ships off tampa and lost a bunch of subs doing it. their naval incompetence was a game loser for them. 80% of german combat deaths were in the east. that was never gonna improve and leave them any spares for other adventures.
fighting WW2 in asia has a different story. was about territory,markets and resources. we had the resources,didn't need the territory (and markets?). japs grabbed resources and territory in asia and were dying by the thousands to grab markets in china. a lot of jap hate and china love here because of our wonderful christian converting freaks. kinda like in peru,mexico and so. pacific.
I often wonder if we would look at the European theatre the same without the hollocaust? I also recall that Germany would have likely failed anyway due to not really having the resources to carry on indefintely.
 
I’m proud to have known 3 South Pacific marine vets. Two were my great uncles and the other was my best friend’s dad. We’ll one uncle was a navy guy. My best friend’s dad just turned 101 the other day and my 2 uncles passed many years ago. One story from my uncles was really funny. During the island hopping camping one uncle ( the marine) was being transported by a battleship to another island and he was a boxer. The navy guys wanted to put their best fighter up against the best marine fighter, so a fight was arranged. When the two fighters faced each other on the deck they stared at each other for a few seconds and started hugging each other, they were my two great uncles.
 
I didn’t disrespect anyone @Maggot. I even acknowledged the bravery of fighting for the men next to them. I can and do respect these men’s experiences even if I don’t agree with why they were there. I watch their stories online often. On the other hand, If speaking the truth offends someone, fuck them. I won’t play into the delusions of others.
Cant find that post but I will accept your word that you did. Perhaps I didnt read well enough. but there is another reason.

I dont know youre age, doesnt matter, but I was born in 1949. Those men who had just been through hell directly shaped my values, my thoughts. Mr. Cantley, got all fucked up and needed shock treatments, coached us in Little League. Mr. Howell who I asked to talk about the war just looked at me with very sad eyes and said "We dont talk about that much". Mr. Clark, served on subs in the pacific. quietest man you could know but every once in a while you'd see it in his eyes. John White, a black man, served in Europe, came back and started a business, my neighbor and friend. My dad who flew unescorted over the north Atlantic. Many others I never met, who went on to Congress and tried to do what they thought was right. Many others.

To a large degree, even in knowing the corruption is rampant and likely terminal, I still try to identify our government with "Truth, Justice, and the American way," flawed as that emotional attachment may be. I find my self somewhat torn between feelings of pride and gratitude for what they gave us, and absolute rage at whats been done to it, that I could ....break things. I'm a bit protective.

Chill, dawg.
 
Our rank and file military fights when and where they are told to and they do it better than any other military in the world. That said, we should have never been in Vietnam, never been in Iraq and never should have had the big army 20+ year occupation of Afganistan. We have to stop the idea of nation building. It doesn't fucking work. Hell, Bush and all his minions should have been tried for war crimes for why and what we did in Iraq. That was pure neo-con, warhawk bullshit that cost us far too many American lives. We never belonged there, not one minute. We shouldn't be fighting this proxy war in Ukraine and while I support Israel in wiping Hamas off the map, our people and our money don't need to be. Why do we give Israel so much money? They are a rich, prosperous country, yet we have given them over $134 Billion USD in aid since WWII. That shit needs to stop.
 
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Second this. The books that the series is based off of are definitely worth reading.

Absolutely.

That is one of the challenges with the series... and why folks don't find it as cohesive or easy-to-follow as Band of Brothers.

It's based on quite a few books. William Manchester's Goodbye Darkness. Helmet for my Pillow by Robert Leckie. With the Old Breed by Eugene Sledge. Red Blood and Black Sand by Chuck Tatum. Also several campaign books such as Guadalcanal by Richard Franks and Guadalcanal Diary by Richard Tregaskis (I think).

So the stories jump all over the place and it can be hard to follow or bond with the specific characters the way you do with Band of Brothers.

My biggest takeaway from the series is how absolutely horrible the Pacific Campaign was and how hard on the Marines. And how unbelieveably tough and resiliant they were. Everyone talks about D-Day. June 6, 1944. Yup, it was huge. Omaha Beach was appalling and the Paratroopers were some of the most amazing and best-trained soldiers America has ever seen (and that includes today's SoF forces.) That was followed by a 11-month slog across Europe and terrible experiences in the Ardennes and (worse) in the Hurtgen Forest... and in Italy (which is not covered.)

But it was not a jungle war. It was at least a temperate climate. It was a slog. But it was not an environmental as well as a combat hell.

Those who have visited the WW2 museum in New Orleans may remember an exhibit called "D-Days in the Pacific"... and I don't remember the exact number. But there were something like 80-100 D-Day's in the Pacific. And for most of them, they were stubbornly defended at waters edge. Only late did the Japanese adopt a 'Draw them in' strategy... such as at Okinawa and Iwo. Otherwise, (as at Tarawa and Peleliu) the beaches were defended viciously. But in both cases, the defenders were utterly relentless and, as portrayed, glad to die for their Emperor.

The Marines had jungle rot. Biting things. Leeches. Bone cracking malaria. 120 degree temperatures. Worms. Monsoon rains. Their clothes rotted off. The Japanese fought to the last man. They wired civilians with explosives. They flew their planes into hospital ships... because denying medical attention was a way to kill more Americans. The climate was trying to kill them. The ocean was trying to kill them. The insects were trying to kill them. And they were at it continuously from 1942 until the day the Bomb dropped in August 1945. They saw far worse... lived far worse. Endured totally unendurable conditions. Almost three continuous years for many. Oh and Plus six months for occupation duty if they didn't have the points.

So I saw two totally different series. But in a good way. Someone above said they saw it as the meatgrinder. That was an apt desciption. The Pacific tells the story of a meatgrinder and the guys who survived it. I don't say 'lived it.' I say 'Survived it.' Band of Brothers tells the story of a unit and their incredible bond. (And, yes, some incredible feats of endurance.) But BoB's folks endured weeks of misery at a time. The Pacific Marines endured one continuous hell for more than 1000 days of combat in the worst conditions.

Last, I recall a study that the Army did in WW2 that said after 80 days in combat most combatants were suffering some kind of serious psychological trauma. Often serious. Not sure if the Marines ever analyzed the same thing in the Pacific. But their numbers were far higher...

That's sort of the difference I see between the series... in a long-winded way. If anyone wants a "Pacific" reading list... I have about 8 feet of books on the campaign. Glad to share!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Our rank and file military fights when and where they are told to and they do it better than any other military in the world. That said, we should have never been in Vietnam, never been in Iraq and never should have had the big army 20+ year occupation of Afganistan. We have to stop the idea of nation building. It doesn't fucking work. Hell, Bush and all his minions should have been tried for war crimes for why and what we did in Iraq. That was pure neo-con, warhawk bullshit that cost us far too many American lives. We never belonged there, not one minute. We shouldn't be fighting this proxy war in Ukraine and while I support Israel in wiping Hamas off the map, our people and our money don't need to be. Why do we give Israel so much money? They are a rich, prosperous country, yet we have given them over $134 Billion USD in aid since WWII. That shit needs to stop.
WTF is wrong with you, of course we belonged in Iraq.

President Cheney had to pay back Haliburton.