Sidearms & Scatterguns  Thinking about M&P .45ACP

MisterGrubbs

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Any ideas on this?

Before we start, I've shot a few handguns, unfortunately no H&K's and no Sigs, so...take it for what you will.

I've shot a Gen2 Glock 40(good shooting pistol, but ugly and uncomfortable as hell to me), a M&P Compact .40(abso-lutely loved it) and the Sub-Compact in 9mm, also shot several Taurus handguns, Springfield XD(Nice gun, but for me the M&P was far, far superior. Felt better, looked better, shot better(for me) )

ALWAYS wanted a Pro Carry II from Kimber. But, after reading what this forum had to say, I'm no longer interested. Breaks my heart, such a good looking gun.

Just wanted some feedback to see if it will be a choice I regret.

Thanks ahead of time
 

turbo54

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

I'm a 45 guy, but nothing too terribly wrong with 40. 40 has higher capacity, but 45 achieves equal or greater energy with WAY less pressure which is quieter (a perk if using in self defense), and makes brass last for as long as you can manage not to lose it. It also decreases the chance of kabooms. Factory ammo is much more expensive though, and reloading is a notch more expensive - if you don't consider brass cost of culling 40 brass. There again though, range pickup 40 is easy - not so much with 45.

If you don't love Glocks (I do), AND you've shot M&Ps and it works for you - get one. The M&P is a great gun - but doesn't work for me. Every 3rd or 4th shot, I accidentally bump the slide catch up, locking the slide back. Otherwise, great guns.

If you like 1911s too - there are tons of good ones.

Step one is deciding between a high-cap, doublestack tupperware gun, and a singlestack steel gun!
 

MisterGrubbs

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

I got ya. I'm not 100% on which caliber will be final, because quite frankly either one is going to do what I need it to do.

I do like 1911's, but with prices of the nicer 1911's in mind, I think I'll save purchasing one of those until after I've purchased the rest of my equipment.

And you'll have to excuse me, I'm still very new to this - what the hell is a high-cap and doublestack tupperware gun? I assume a singlestack steel gun would be a pistol in the form of the M&P and XD's, etc.?
 

aloreman

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

I shoot an m&p pro series for idpa ssp class. i love the way it fits and the reliability. if the m&p feels good and you shoot them well then that would be the gun i would choose. as far as caliber i personaly wouldnt carry anything smaller than a 40. friends carry pocket pistols and such and go with the adage of "its better than throwing a rock" but when i leave my house i get to choose the rock i carry
 

MisterGrubbs

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

Yeah, I've seen the Rock Islands for quite some time now. But, like I said, I'd rather save the money and do it right. Either pick up a nice Springfield or maybe even try to find a Wilson Combat used.

Aloreman - What are the differences in the standard M&P and the M&P Pro series? Is the trigger the only difference?
 

aloreman

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

pro series has the better trigger and upgraded sites. mine is the five inch model which is great for competition but a bit big to carry. smiths pro series trigger is ok but i swapped it out for apex tacticals competition trigger kit and its wayyyyyyyyyy better
 

MisterGrubbs

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

So, perhaps pick up the Sub Compact M&P and try it out with the upgraded trigger, if I need it?

Edit : The only sub-compact I can find is the 9mm, like my friend owns. I'm going to assume they do not make the sub-compact in .40?

When I shot the M*P, the trigger felt fine to me - but then again I haven't really shot enough pistols to make a decent judgement call there.

What's the cost on the trigger kit?
 

aloreman

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

u could buy the plain m&p and drop in the apex trigger and be at about the same price as the pro series
 

MisterGrubbs

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

Gotcha, I see the kit for 85 bucks on Gunbroker. Not too bad, and doesn't look like it's going to take a genius to install. I might consider that if I don't like the pull.
 

aloreman

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

it takes up alot of the pre travel and lightens the pull to just under 3lb simple kit to install with basic tools and a little mechanical ability. i went at it the expensive way lol. but i wanted the 5 inch gun. shot glocks for years and tried the m&p. several friends have shot mine and purchased an m&p. they just fit in your hand better
 

Downzero

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

It's not really about whether you like the pull, a smoother/lighter trigger is just easier to shoot faster.

There is nothing "doing it right" about buying a Springer over a RIA 1911. I own both brands and there's no doubt in my mind that Armscor produces a better gun than the Brazilian Springfields. My Armscor-produced gun of choice is the STI Spartan because I like the cocking serrations, slide dovetail, and adjustable rear sight for competition, but if I didn't care about those things, the RIA Tactical is an exceptional value as well.

I also own an M&P. Since you don't seem to be caliber-loyal, I would choose 9mm over all of the others. It has less recoil and cheaper ammo (for both reloaded and factory).

I would own 9mms to the exclusion of all other calibers if not for competitive divisions that basically necessitate shooting .40 or .45. I even sometimes shoot a 9mm in Single Stack because it's so much fun to shoot and it's cheaper.

You can buy whatever you want, but personally, I'd have no use for .45 ACP at all unless it was in a 1911. Other than that, the more modern, higher pressure cartridges (9mm, .40) have much more to offer us than .45.

The USA has its love affair with .45 ACP but 9mm is the world's caliber for a reason.
 

aloreman

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

we as americans tend to supersize everthing. and where as a 9mm hollow point may expand a 45 fmj aint guna shrink
 

aloreman

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

a smooth light crisp trigger is more about accuratly placing the first shot and then the ability for an accuratly placed follow up if needed
 

Downzero

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we as americans tend to supersize everthing. and where as a 9mm hollow point may expand a 45 fmj aint guna shrink
</div></div>

That's true. My 9mm also holds something like 30% more rounds. I'll just pull the trigger again.

I've actually not carried anything but a .38 or a 9mm in a long time.
 

MisterGrubbs

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

Maybe it's the difference in the guns, I'm not sure, but the Sub-Compact 9mm vs the Compact in the .40 - the .40 was just all around better. The gun itself felt better(difference in size, I reckon) and I shot a TON more accurate with the .40

More than likely, I will end up with a .40, as like I said it'll do whatever I need it to. I do understand what you're saying about the 9mm being a plenty potent round, but I am semi-biased towards the .40 and .45. Like you said, it'll likely be .40 for any pistol I own minues a 1911, which will be a .45 - - - come on, it's how it's supposed to be, right?
 

MisterGrubbs

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

Aloreman - Whatever I choose, I can gurantee you before it's on my side and trusted it will have plenty of rounds through it and I will feel comfortable with it when the time counts. I'd rather take one shot that counts than 10 shots that might make a difference. That's the reason I refuse to own a .380 - - - cool little guns and all(Friend has an LCP, shot it on many occasions) but it's probably the most inaccurate little gun I've ever shot in my life.
 

Downzero

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ryan Grubbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe it's the difference in the guns, I'm not sure, but the Sub-Compact 9mm vs the Compact in the .40 - the .40 was just all around better. The gun itself felt better(difference in size, I reckon) and I shot a TON more accurate with the .40

More than likely, I will end up with a .40, as like I said it'll do whatever I need it to. I do understand what you're saying about the 9mm being a plenty potent round, but I am semi-biased towards the .40 and .45. Like you said, it'll likely be .40 for any pistol I own minues a 1911, which will be a .45 - - - come on, it's how it's supposed to be, right? </div></div>

They're the exact same frame. You could literally gut the components from one, place it in the other frame, and have basically the exact same gun with a different serial number.

There is no "subcompact" M&P. The guns come in (for 9mm and .40) 3.5, 4.25, and 5 inch barrels.

.40 is a nasty cartridge with a lot of recoil. If you shot it better, that was all in your head. I shoot a lot of rounds, but I would never shoot .40 if 9mm (or even .45 for that matter) was a realistic option.

If you came here to reinforce your bias, head out to the gun store and buy whatever you want. If delusions of 'stopping power' are driving your decision, no forum can change your mind. If you think that .40 is more 'accurate' than 9mm, again, no forum will change your mind.

You're obviously a beginner. A gun that kicks more and costs more to feed means that you will shoot it less and be less proficient with it.

If that's what you want, it's your money. We can't stop you.

Basically what I'm saying is, if you haven't shot enough to have a rational preference of one caliber over the other, and you are trying to rationalize a more expensive caliber over cheaper ammo and more practice, then there's not much we can do for you.
 

MisterGrubbs

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

Downzero - I am a beginner, that's pretty obvious. I'm not here to make people believe I know anything about...anything, I'm here to learn.

The 9mm that I shot was labeled as a "sub compact" when purchased and is a LOT smaller than the Compact .40 that I've also shot. You're 100% they don't make a subcompact that is smaller? Or maybe I'm mixxing up the full size with a Compact? Not sure

I'm not saying that a 9mm round is more or less of a round than a .40, but that day, shooting those two guns, I was more accurate with the .40 hands down. No clue why, I simply shot it better. Now, like I said, this may be due to the difference in size of the two.

Also - I'm not trying to rationalize anything. If someone has something to say, I listen to it at this point. I assume everyone here knows more about ballistics as well as weapons than I do. However, if you're going to comment and basically make me out to be the fool, at least explain the reasoning so that next time I will know.
 

Downzero

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

I have already given you detailed reasons why choosing anything other than 9mm for a beginner is a mistake. I suspect that if you can't come up with a rebuttal, it's because there is no reason to choose a more expensive or higher-recoil caliber over the cheap and soft shooting 9mm.

Like I said, M&Ps come in 3.5" (normally called "compact"), 4.25" (normally called "full size), and 5" (normally called long slide) models.

There is no substantial difference in mechanical accuracy from 3/4" of barrel length and sight radius. If you shot one more accurately than the other, and want to know why it was different, look into the mirror--because it ain't the pistol.

Just buy one and a mountain of ammo and practice. That's all that matters anyway.
 

MisterGrubbs

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

Fair enough, I reckon. Why would that be, I wonder? I understand it would be my shooting but...that is just a bit weird if the accuracy is very similar.

I am a beginner, and I don't know enough to argue. That's why I ask
smile.gif
 

Downzero

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

If you put both guns in a vice and shot them, I suspect you'd find that even out past any distance you'd ever shoot an M&P, they were both similarly accurate.

Pistol accuracy is all about the shooter until you get very good.
 

MisterGrubbs

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

So ballistic wise - the 9mm is just as strong/accurate as the .40

Less recoil

Cheaper

Would make sense to pick it up, no?
 

aloreman

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

for a new shooter i would recommend a quality 22 for lots of practice but in my personal opinion and i have the scars to prove it nothing less than a 40 for defense especialy if you live somewhere where people may be wearing a coat
 

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

I'd go with the 9mm. The .40 cal round is "snappier" if that's a word.

Did you shoot the 9mm before or after the .40?

Also, I shoot a G22 a little better then a G23 and TONS better then a G27. All .40 cal Glocks but different barrel lengths and frame sizes.

If you compare the 17, 19, and 26. I'm pretty close with all three just sometimes pinch my pinky when doing reload drills with the 26.

IMHO, no way you should shoot a .40 better then a 9mm. Kinda like saying I shoot a 300wm better then a 308 .
 

aloreman

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

sounds to me like you are willing to put in the time and effort to become proficient with the weapon and should have no problem overcoming the recoil difference. lets face it its not like ur guna be shooting 50 yd bullseye with a compact gun. get a gun ur comfortable with and shoot it
 

Onemoretime

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

If you are talking penetration... velocity is king. You need some weight but velocity is where it's at.
 

MisterGrubbs

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

Sorry this turned into a different thread guys. At least I know now that the M&P is a good enough gun.

aloreman - I live in Georgia, but for the most part people here are little girls when it comes to cold and they wear thick jackets, although not as bad as the ones in PA. Are you saying the 9mm won't penetrate?
 

Onemoretime

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

The M&P's kick ass... the trigger is my only issue with them and APEX handled that. I have an M&P 45.

And... a 9mm will penetrate. The 9mm is a 115 - 147gr projectile moving at between 1000 and 1400 feet per second depending on ammo.

Check ballistics here: http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php
 

aloreman

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

i have two scares on my right arm that just went under the skin through a leather riding coat. neither broke the bone but both hurt like hell so i have no faith in a 9mm as a threat stopping round but thank god everyday that someone else choose to use the 9
 

Onemoretime

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

Remember shot placement is key

...and if you have to use your gun in self defense... shoot them to the ground. No double taps or mozambique's.
 

Onemoretime

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i have two scares on my right arm that just went under the skin through a leather riding coat. neither broke the bone but both hurt like hell so i have no faith in a 9mm as a threat stopping round but thank god everyday that someone else choose to use the 9 </div></div>

If you are talking about a motorcycle jacket then those are basically light body armor. Most have padding and some are kevlar enforced. I bet a 40 would have done the same thing... and, you are lucky my friend.

I'll bet you more people have been killed by a 9mm then any other handgun round.
 

aloreman

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

it was a leather jacket not a crotch rocket jacket and yes i am lucky. what it comes down to is there is no right or wrong gun/caliber choice as the best gun for self defense is the 1 u have on you and not the 1 you left at home. the m&p is an excellent firearm as far as accuracy and reliability go and as far as caliber choice we could stand at the urinal and see who can piss the farthest all nite long.
 

Downzero

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">there is a reason police have gone from using 9mm to shooting 40s&w 45 gap and 45 acp </div></div>

No there isn't. There's no real justification for it other than that they're not paying for the ammo. There's absolutely no doubt about the performance of good hollow point ammunition in 9mm.
 

Onemoretime

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

That said...

I keep a 9mm close to me at all times... I own a 45 that lives next to the bed, and my next handgun purchase will be a 40cal either a Glock 23 or an M&P40 Pro. The reason is because with the 40 cal I can buy an after market barrel for the 9mm and .357sig rounds. The .357 sig shares the same mags with a 40 and the 9mm mags will function fine in the mag well of the 40's frame.

You'll be more then fine with the 9mm but... what I would do is buy the 40 and a switch barrel and mags for a 9mm. Cheaper practice ammo and if you're REALLY paranoid and feel more comfortable carrying a .40 then you can.

Just make sure that you get a good feel for the ammo you will carry with. Because switching from Winchester White Box to Federal HST +P ammo WILL throw you off your game if you aren't prepared.
 

Onemoretime

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it was a leather jacket not a crotch rocket jacket and yes i am lucky. what it comes down to is there is no right or wrong gun/caliber choice as the best gun for self defense is the 1 u have on you and not the 1 you left at home. the m&p is an excellent firearm as far as accuracy and reliability go and as far as caliber choice we could stand at the urinal and see who can piss the farthest all nite long. </div></div>

Agreed... Not in a pissing contest, just don't want to cloud the issue with personal preferences.

I just think your personal experience is valid but I believe you were lucky, not because you got shot with an anemic round but because you did't get hit else where and are here to share your opinion... which I am thankful for, without even knowing you.
 

Downzero

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

I would highly recommend against shooting 9mm through a .40 slide. They are not the same regardless of what some company that sells barrels told you. A proper conversion from one to the other would replace barrel, slide, extractor, ejector, and magazine at the very least.

If you are really paranoid that 9mm will not do the job, your best bet is acknowledging that such a fear is irrational and unsupported by the empirical evidence, which shows that modern hollow point ammunition makes 9mm just as effective .40 or .45 for self defense.
 

aloreman

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Re: Thinking about M&P .45ACP

personaly i carry a ruger sp101 357 mag a glock 23 and in the winter when i can hide it i carry a colt combat elite.