Thoughts on switch barrel systems....tell me I'm wrong...

[garandman]

So people that put their own AR-15's together have rifles with variations built into them because they let your variables into their rifle when it was built? None hostile question BTW.

I don't know how else to say it - the AR15 is a fixed barrel system, every bit as much as a custom bolt gun. A single, fixed, non-interchangeable barrel.

The variation of a switch barrel comes from using TWO DIFFERENT BARRELS. THINK about it.....

 

[garandman]

Having done the old box test with my .338LM and the 6.5X47 then going back to .338LM it looked to me like the rifle rezeros quite well. The nightforce scope works very well too. The 338 was hitting right back where it started. Going back to the 6.5 I ended up with another good set of bullet holes touching the ones fired previously. I'm happy and pretty much done with the thread. You asked a question and got a lot of pretty good answers but don't seem to be happy with the answers. I'm not going to change your mind and you won't change mine. I've got nothing to sell you and you're not buying anyway.


Frank

I'm happy for you.

See the video posted.

 

[meyersa88]

No wonder everyone is being so hostile towards you, have a nice day. Done with this cluster....

 

[BLDTYLRY]

I don't know how else to say it - the AR15 is a fixed barrel system, every bit as much as a custom bolt gun. A single, fixed, non-interchangeable barrel.

The variation of a switch barrel comes from using TWO DIFFERENT BARRELS. THINK about it.....

You are really misinformed and further proves your lack of knowledge. I'm running a Templar Custom Rail on my AR15. It allows me to change between 223. 6.5 Grendel, and 300 Blackout with just a barrel and bolt change; each caliber setup has a barrel, barrel nut, gas block, gas tube, and muzzle device. I haven't had issues with just hand tightening the barrel nut, the zero needs to be adjusted between calibers. Only tool needed is a hex wrench to remove the handguard.

[video=youtube;i_f-DsJVqcU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_f-DsJVqcU[/video]

Open your mind and you may learn something.

 

[E. Bryant]

I don't know how else to say it - the AR15 is a fixed barrel system, every bit as much as a custom bolt gun. A single, fixed, non-interchangeable barrel.

So, wait - AR15 barrels are fixed and non-interchangeable? All of 'em that I've ever worked on used a threaded nut, which allows for barrel removal in just a few minutes of work.

The variation of a switch barrel comes from using TWO DIFFERENT BARRELS. THINK about it.....

Let me get this straight - if I have an AI AX in my safe with only one barrel, it's a laser-accurate machine, but introducing a second barrel into the equation suddenly degrades its accuracy to something unaccepable? Why is it not possible to restore the original level of accuracy by repeating the steps undertaken when the barrel was first installed?

Ultimately, the barrel on most bolt guns is a variation on a threaded fastener. Machined properly and torqued/index to a given value, they tend to go back together the same way in a very repeatable fashion.

 

[garandman]

See the DTA video above. 8"+ groups. Shifted zero.

I'm not saying it turns a rifle into a scattergun. I'm saying variables cause variation. In ANY gun. Anywhere.

 

[Dogtown]

So the fact that all 5 of my DTA conversions shoot 1/2MOA or better means nothing?

 

[John1911.com]

Blaser has a switch barrel system. Very accurate.

TTR

 

[jbell]

Blaser has a switch barrel system. Very accurate.

TTR

Oh yea, I forgot about those. They are a very nice design and if I needed a hunting, varmint, ect rifle that would be a good choice but I just cant get the LR2 stock to fit me very well. However I thing the Blaser rifles are so repeatable because the barrel stays connected to the scope. If you wanted to us it as a switch barrel rifle (which it is intended to be) with only one scope then you would have to change scope out as well and that would introduce an other place for the zero to change.

Not saying that I agree with all of the OP's point of views but I don't think there is any free lunch...

 

[garandman]

Oh yea, I forgot about those. They are a very nice design and if I needed a hunting, varmint, ect rifle that would be a good choice but I just cant get the LR2 stock to fit me very well. However I thing the Blaser rifles are so repeatable because the barrel stays connected to the scope. If you wanted to us it as a switch barrel rifle (which it is intended to be) with only one scope then you would have to change scope out as well and that would introduce an other place for the zero to change.

Not saying that I agree with all of the OP's point of views but I don't think there is any free lunch...

Maybe that's as good as possible a place for this thread to end. Variables introduce variation. What exactly that will look like varies.

 

[sharac]

Jesus F Christ.... Blaser Sauer Unique Alpine they all stupid yooo cuz dey dont shut wort a dam!!!

Give it a rest already, people tried again and again to explain to you and you keep "spanking the monkey". Quick barrel change rifles shoot as every bit as accurate as fixed barrel rifles ONLY real notable variance is barrel change procedure which is in fixed rifle done once otherwise as much as one pleases. If you use custom headspace gauge and torque wrench you can bet your ass you'll be in 99.99% of spec. and it becomes a complete and utter non issue. You can even (as some have pointed out they like to buy scopes) buy different one piece base and scope for each barrel and be again spot on for every imaginable combination. But i guess not every tool is fit for every worker and considering this thread better stay away from firearms all together as arguing against people on the net might be in vain but at least not as life threatening as arguing with physics.

 

[sib1948]

Jesus F Christ.... Blaser Sauer Unique Alpine they all stupid yooo cuz dey dont shut wort a dam!!!

Give it a rest already, people tried again and again to explain to you and you keep "spanking the monkey". Quick barrel change rifles shoot as every bit as accurate as fixed barrel rifles ONLY real notable variance is barrel change procedure which is in fixed rifle done once otherwise as much as one pleases. If you use custom headspace gauge and torque wrench you can bet your ass you'll be in 99.99% of spec. and it becomes a complete and utter non issue. You can even (as some have pointed out they like to buy scopes) buy different one piece base and scope for each barrel and be again spot on for every imaginable combination. But i guess not every tool is fit for every worker and considering this thread better stay away from firearms all together as arguing against people on the net might be in vain but at least not as life threatening as arguing with physics.

Well put!!! Amen, brother!!!

 

[E. Bryant]

I'm saying variables cause variation. In ANY gun. Anywhere.

The key is to know (not guess, not assume, not form a strong opinion) which of those variables is actually meaningful, and design accordingly. Not all variables are created equally, and the bag of meat behind the rifle usually outweighs the vast majority.

Here is another perspective on switch-barrel accuracy, from one of our own members:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-accuracy-international-psr-user-reviews.html

Accuracy does not seem to have suffered on this rifle.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

I think the video speaks for itself. The shooter was taking aimed shots - about the same timeframe I'll shoot half MoA groups.

All thru the thread, I kept hearing, "This is a half MoA rifle." Then we get video of over MoA, and then the excuse making starts.

And there IS NO disputing the zero moved right, necessitating not just a elevation adjustment, but also a windage adjustment. All thru this thread, every body kept telling me "No windage adjustment is necessary."

Basically, the video showed all the claims were .... less than true. And that my suspicions were confirmed.

Not that I'm any genius. Basic logic tells you when you introduce variables into precision rifle shooting, you get variation.

All that adjustment is fine.... if that's what you want to do.

I don't.

Well I am going to say the DTA is a half MOA rifle because I have shot them and achieved that.

If course it's going to move, different barrel and cal, but what we are saying is that it will be the same for it each time you install the barrel. So if the .308 moves 1 moa right and 1 down, it will be the same each time you install. This is why I said, and others, that you shoot to find out what the adjustment will be, record on your dope card, then every time you switch the barrel you dial that. Repeatable every time.

 

[sandwarrior]

This is an interesting thread with some good ideas coming out of it.

Suffice it to say, yes, mechanically you can build a system of multi-barrel/calibers on one receiver that will zero at a given point and hold benchrest accuracy. Mr. Dave Tooley, and several others I can name are testament to the fact benchrest accuracy is capable with multi-barreled systems. It won't be inexpensive!

When it comes to a quick-change field type gun it is still possible. The variables the OP mentions are there but can be minimized to below what a shooter would notice. Or, at least call a detractor. To make a system like this it takes time and the ability to have all the components together so they can be matched. This is not at all going to be inexpensive. In fact what seems like a lot of money will probably be close to bare minimum for the time the builder puts into it.

As barrels wear and need replacing, this will become more difficult. It simply means that the shooter will have to know the variations between barrels/calibers and adjust for them before shooting begins. Even with the variables and the adjustments necessary any replacement barrel could still shoot high competition level accuracy. I know you don't want to adjust, but bringing two rifles on a moving shoot is a lot harder than bringing an extra barrel and a tool. So, it depends on what you want. Personally, I've been on several shoots that I wished I had two calibers. Sometimes I would even have put up with the extra weight. Scopes may or may not change. I've found the same thing with them that I have wishing for two or more calibers. The one you have will have to do, so get one that is as good as you can and with as wide a variable as you need. Keep in mind need is different that want. You can easily see to 1000 yds. with a 6x or even a 3x scope. Just not as much detail. And, you might need to hold center mass instead of picked point on your target. But, in mirage you aren't going to get to use high power either. So, you just gotta make the best of what you've got.

Something I didn't see before here and forgot to mention it, is how well the stock fits you. Another very good reason for a switch barrel. Comfort in shooting is a very big factor. One stock, one feel for the shot.

A switch barrel rifle would be well worth the money if you had it and wanted to save space and weight on a shoot.

 

[garandman]

... what we are saying is that it will be the same for it each time you install the barrel. .

That has NEVER EVER been my point in this thread. I specifically said "switching calibers" in the VERY FIRST POST. I specifically told you the calibers I was referring to - 6.5 and 338. I specifically gave bullet drops for the two calibers. I used words like "variables" "variation" and "switching barrels" all of which is about DIFFERENT barrels, NOT the same barrel.

Can you people not read? Seriously.

Again, I'm done. I'm out. I give up on a thread where people are incapable of actually discussing the point I am making. And hijacking the thread to make their own point, and often as not use profanity, make masturbation references, are mean, angry, condescending and arrogant.

The ones who this applies to know who they are. I'm sure they are proud of themselves.

Life's too short to put up with infantile behavior and rudeness. I refuse to accept that in any format - internet or otherwise.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

I think you are the one that is not reading.

If you install a 6.5 barrel, then install the .338 Norma barrel, each one of them when installed will have the same point of impact in regards to point of aim.

 

[BLDTYLRY]

Breathe.....Breathe....

Until someone can come up with a multi-caliber switch barrel system where all calibers have the same POA/POI at all distances, the OP isn't listening anymore. Which explains why the OP wants a rifle and scope for each caliber and having to adjust the scope for each caliber conversion isn't worth his/her time.

 

[Frank Green]

Here is just one example.....



The action is a Badger M2008. The barrel on the rifle in the picture is a Rem. Varmint type contour in .260 Rem. The barrel laying on the floor next to it is a M40 type contour in .308 win.

In a time frame of two to three weeks I had the whole gun a apart like 5 times swapping the barrels back and forth. The difference in zero's between them is like a 1/2 moa right and 1 moa high. When ever I swap the barrels I make the scope adjustment and the gun is on call every time for me.

What is being called a switch barrel gun is totally possible. Another great example as has been noted before is the AI PSR rifle. Just make a note of the difference in zero's with the different barrels and calibers and if the gun is built properly it will work just fine.

Here is another one for you. For my down and dirty test rifle for the shop it's a older Savage 112V series J. Originally it was a .220 Swift (still have the barrel). I pinned the recoil lug to the receiver, pillar bedded the stock. That gun has had barrels from .220 Swift, to .243win., 6mm Rem., .308 Win., 7.5x58mm, and .338 Lapua on it. If I take off the current barrel which is the 7.5x58mm and put the .308win. recheck the zero difference between the two and the gun will be on call.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[dang472]

I find it amazing that the OP is linking a change in point of impact between 2 vastly different calibers to a shortcoming of a switch barrel setup. We handloaders are constantly performing OCW and ladder tests to fine tune a load within a specific caliber. There are times when you can have a different POI from a change in PRIMERS, and you think it's realistic to have a 6.5 and a 338 having the same 200yrd zero? A 165gr GameKing in a .308 will have a big enough difference from a 168gr SMK to change your scope, let alone the difference of a 123gr AMAX compared to a 300gr Lapua Scenar.

I'm a fan of single rifle/single caliber rifles because I enjoy the build process and "collecting" of different setups, but the switch barrel DTA definitely has a place in the precision shooting world.

 

[sandwarrior]

I'm still trying ti figure out how BLDTYLRY hacked my computer and got my picture...

 

[Dogtown]

And...this thread is DONE!

 

[Bradu]

Haha, that's a great GIF