Thoughts on switch barrel systems....tell me I'm wrong...

[garandman]

OK, I'll bite.

Depends on the rifles. Do they have to be reliable and able to function in tough environments, like AX? If so, it would cost you extra. I seem to recall you asking about AR-30 in 338LM, and got back the cost of TRG42 around $3500, AWSM around $4000-$5000, AX 338 around $6850... Now double or triple this, and tell me that one chassis and two or three barrels "aren't much less" than $8000-$15000 (two or three systems). And we haven't addressed the scope issue yet - how many scopes are you planning to put on your multiple rifles, and how much would each of them cost? If your goal is "exacting accuracy" you can't settle for a cheap junk-scope, and good glass costs an arm and a leg, as I'm sure you know.

OK, I'll bite...back.

My 6.5CM (sans glass) has $1900 invested (XLR chassis, and Southern Precision barreled trued Rem 700 action.) It shoots half MoA and less.

My 338 Norma being built will have $3250 invested (XLR chassis, TAC338 action, and Obermayer barrel)

That's $5150. Add glass for two scopes and I'm at $7,750 (both Leup Mark 4 FFP's. I have a "source")

A DTA chassis costs about $3,300 (average) for the chassis, and $1600 (average) per conversion system. (Prices direct from DTA's webpage.) Add 1 scope ( at $1300) and yer at $7800. ( I suspect AI would be about the same $$$. I have no doubt the premier switch barrel manufacturers priced their stuff to MATCH the cost of buying two rifles.)

So....I was wrong. The DTA and my two complete rifles are EXACTLY the same money. So there is ZERO $$$ savings. The DTA would save a little space in the gunsafe, be a really wiz bang little gizmo to own, and that's about it. Thing is....with my two rifles, I don't have to worry about futzing with the scope. I don't have to worry about introducing the variables I mentioned above. I take them out, and shoot them, without having to take the toolbox to the range, knowing they are dead on accurate.

For me, time is $$$$, and the time the switch barrel guys will be wrenching / zeroing, I'll be shooting.

Oh....yeah.... 1 more thing.... DTA / AI don't offer the 338 Norma caliber I wanted, so that's kinda a problem too.

 

[E. Bryant]

So....I was wrong. The DTA and my two complete rifles are EXACTLY the same money. So there is ZERO $$$ savings.

Yeah - and you just compared a DTA to a rifle built from a stock Rem700 action, and you're assuming the use of some pretty inexpensive optics. Try it again with comparing the DTA to a pair of rifles built off higher-end actions, and then include the cost of a couple really nice scopes (S-B PMII or similar). The math will look much different.

I don't have a dog in this fight - don't own a DTA, don't own a switchbarrel setup, and don't really give a fuck if someone wants to start a shitstorm but wants to do it exclusively on his own terms. I'm just tremendously amused at the cognitive dissonance required to engage in such a discussion based purely upon speculation and still keep that .sig in every post

 

[garandman]

Yeah - and you just compared a DTA to a rifle built from a stock Rem700 action, and you're assuming the use of some pretty inexpensive optics. Try it again with comparing the DTA to a pair of rifles built off higher-end actions, and then include the cost of a couple really nice scopes (S-B PMII or similar). The math will look much different.

)

My 6.5CM is NOT a stock Rem700 action. My 338NM will be built on a TAC338. I don't "assume" the use of inexpensive optics. I KNOW the price is exactly what I stated. These are NOT inexpensive optics - its first rate glass that I just happen to get a good price on. And as others have said - ALL that matters is what prints on paper. My 6.5CM gets half MoA and often better - which is the exact same accuracy I was told other people's switch barrels give them. You really need to read more carefully.... and / or stop posting distortions of what I say.

My comparison is apples to apples - same money, same accuracy for two DTA calibers as my two complete rifles. Not to mention the 338NM caliber I want is not available from DTA / AI.

Your profanity and condescension add nothing to this thread. I release you from any duty to participate further in it.

 

[meyersa88]

OK, I'll bite...back.

My 6.5CM (sans glass) has $1900 invested (XLR chassis, and Southern Precision barreled trued Rem 700 action.) It shoots half MoA and less.

My 338 Norma being built will have $3250 invested (XLR chassis, TAC338 action, and Obermayer barrel)

That's $5150. Add glass for two scopes and I'm at $7,750 (both Leup Mark 4 FFP's. I have a "source")

A DTA chassis costs about $3,300 (average) for the chassis, and $1600 (average) per conversion system. (Prices direct from DTA's webpage.) Add 1 scope ( at $1300) and yer at $7800. ( I suspect AI would be about the same $$$. I have no doubt the premier switch barrel manufacturers priced their stuff to MATCH the cost of buying two rifles.)

So....I was wrong. The DTA and my two complete rifles are EXACTLY the same money. So there is ZERO $$$ savings. The DTA would save a little space in the gunsafe, be a really wiz bang little gizmo to own, and that's about it. Thing is....with my two rifles, I don't have to worry about futzing with the scope. I don't have to worry about introducing the variables I mentioned above. I take them out, and shoot them, without having to take the toolbox to the range, knowing they are dead on accurate.

For me, time is $$$$, and the time the switch barrel guys will be wrenching / zeroing, I'll be shooting.

Oh....yeah.... 1 more thing.... DTA / AI don't offer the 338 Norma caliber I wanted, so that's kinda a problem too.

Although, if you decided you wanted a third caliber, the cost of the DTA would be far more beneficial price and space wise compared to 3 full set-ups. Also earlier you mentioned that you were worried about forgetting which caliber you zerod it for, just get a nightforce with zerostop. That way every time you go to the range you can dial it back to that and adjust for each barrel from there. Also, when I was thinking of doing a switch barrel like several others have stated, they were referring to a Rem or Savage style with a barrel nut system. If you're wanting a caliber that DTA doesn't offer than you could just go that route. I planned on taking a Defiance Deviant action slapping on the nicest stock that I liked and the nicest glass I liked and then getting also the nicest barrels I could buy and probably have about 3-4 calibers on that system. My price came out to $6,015 for two calibers, $6,815 for three, and $7,615 for four. That's with $3,100 between the stock and the glass.

 

[sib1948]

Most decent scopes are $2000-3000 and I have 3 DTA conversions-260, 308 and 338LM. You could have a custom Norma magnum barrel done for the DTA. Many custom builders can do that for you! I'm in no way connected to DTA or any gun manufacturer, but just trying to give you the FACTS. I'm in the process of selling my custom rifles and redundant scopes, but still deciding which scope will best fit my 2 DTA SRS platfrorms. So far using Vortex Razor HD 5-20X 50mm EBR-2B reticle and March FX 5-40X 56mm, FFP and mil/mil. Scopes and mounts new total about $6000. You can do the math. Best of luck with your choices. Whichever way you go, you can always sell what you dislike easily, for a slight profit or very little loss, if you buy wisely!

 

[garandman]

meyersa88 and sib1948.... true statements and good thoughts. Thanx. The third rifle is where the switch barrel system begins to really stand out. And I ***REALLY*** like the bullpup design of the DTA. Sweet.

Its interesting to note the difference - some people give rational, unemotional facts and discussion, and others get all emotional, torqued out of the frame and start cursing and being all insulting and condescending.

The former have begun to convince me my suspicions / fears about switch barrels are unfounded. The latter amuse me. I wonder why they are getting all emotional about it, if the switch barrel system is such a logically sound choice.

 

[E. Bryant]

I release you from any duty to participate further in it.

Heh - now that's funny (almost as funny as calling a Leupold Mark 4 "first rate glass").

 

[Willys46]

I see other options than the DTA. Those systems seem to be pretty expensive. But they are proven.

I guess when you talk switch barrel I look at like this:
Custom action with pinned recoil lug--$1250.00 ish
Chassie or stock $1,100.00
6.5 CM Barrel chambered and installed $500.00
338 barrel and chambered and installed $500.00
Optic leupold FFP $1300.00. Your price
$4650.00

I'm sure I forgot a little detail here and there, but now every time I need a new barrel it's going to be roughly $500.00.

When you look at it that way it becomes a lot more attractive. But comparing the DTA and AI the delta is much less.

And the system described above will hold .5 moa just like any other highend custom gun. Heck I was at my gunsmith yesterday and there was a Benchrest shooter there that he does a lot of work for. He figured he has Benchrest actions that have had 25-50 different barrels on. And he just won the open f-class state championship with one of his switch barrels.

Sounds like you have to good setups, and I like having two guns to shoot at the range anyway. Let one cool and keep practicing with the other.

 

[garandman]

Heh - now that's funny (almost as funny as calling a Leupold Mark 4 "first rate glass").

Really, dude.... go out and have a good life. Don't rob the rest of the world of your wit and wisdom by posting in this thread. And mucking it up.

 

[garandman]

I see other options than the DTA. Those systems seem to be pretty expensive. But they are proven.

.

General question to all.... what are all the switch barrel systems available?

DTA
AI
Savage

....... ?

 

[E. Bryant]

Really, dude.... go out and have a good life. Don't rob the rest of the world of your wit and wisdom by staying in this thread. And mucking it up.

I'm have a great life, but thanks for your sincere concern. Oh, and this thread was mucked-up from the very beginning. I'm not really swinging the needle much in either direction.

General question to all.... what are all the switch barrel systems available?

DTA
AI
....... ?

... and any rifle with a user-replaceable barrel (meaning damn near anything that is threaded, pinned, retained, etc. in such a way that facilitates barrel removal and replacement in a repeatable fashion). There aren't a single set of magic characteristics that define a "switch-barrel" setup, but there are some features that can make life a lot easier for the user. It all comes down to where and how-often the barrel is intended to be swapped, which means that there needs to be a defined mission in order to define the equipment characteristics. Swapping between pre-fit barrels on a Rem700, Savage or AI is something that I can do in several minutes in my shop, but I might not want to go through the hassle at the range, and I certainly as hell wouldn't want to be doing it under all weather conditions in the field.

 

[cjgemm]

What ever PSR systems that are available for private sale. Your asking about more than a switch barrel. You are also going from short to long, which makes it more complicated. I for one would not want to run 6.5 creedmoor in AI 338 mags.

 

[garandman]

What ever PSR systems that are available for private sale. Your asking about more than a switch barrel. You are also going from short to long, which makes it more complicated. I for one would not want to run 6.5 creedmoor in AI 338 mags.

I hadn't thought of that. What do switch barrel chassis systems do to accommodate both 6.5CM mags, and 338 mags? Yer right - I wouldn't want to put 6.5 in 338 mags. Not even sure its possible.

 

[E. Bryant]

AI uses a magazine insert/adapter on the PSR:

 

[mouse07410]

My 6.5CM (sans glass) has $1900 invested (XLR chassis, and Southern Precision barreled trued Rem 700 action.) It shoots half MoA and less.

Is there any reason a rifle like AW costs much more than that, beside "brand name"? But if you don't care for "field use", it's fine. My old Rem 700 was around $600, was not trued, and it still prints 0.4 MOA when I can do my part. Throw in AICS chassis ($1000 - I had a "source" ), and my old 308 rifle is still cheaper than yours.

On the other hand, when I wanted to add a 6.5mm caliber to my DTA system, I paid just $1000 for it for the additional barrel (bolt and mag are the same as 308 Win, scope stays the same).

My 338 Norma being built will have $3250 invested (XLR chassis, TAC338 action, and Obermayer barrel)
That's $5150. Add glass for two scopes and I'm at $7,750 (both Leup Mark 4 FFP's. I have a "source")

OK. So you can find a "source" for scopes, but cannot do the same for the rifles. Fine.

A DTA chassis costs about $3,300 (average) for the chassis, and $1600 (average) per conversion system. (Prices direct from DTA's webpage.) Add 1 scope ( at $1300) and yer at $7800. ( I suspect AI would be about the same $$$. I have no doubt the premier switch barrel manufacturers priced their stuff to MATCH the cost of buying two rifles.)

First, if you compare MSRP - it would make sense to use MSRP for all the products involved. Second - are you suggesting that premier switch barrel manufacturers are trying to discourage potential buyers by pricing their products so high as to eliminate financial appeal from moving to their systems? What about high pricing of non-switch barrel systems such as AW/AX? AX338 alone (sans glass) is $8,600.00 (one caliber, no switching AFAIK). Finally, your retail DTA costs are within the ballpark numbers.

Thing is....with my two rifles, I don't have to worry about futzing with the scope. I don't have to worry about introducing the variables I mentioned above. I take them out, and shoot them, without having to take the toolbox to the range, knowing they are dead on accurate.

I think we've already covered this part: you convinced most of us - myself for sure - that you don't need a switch barrel system, and would do best to stay away from such.

Now it is not every time that I want to shoot more than one caliber at the range. For those days I might leave the "toolbox" (which includes just one tool - 65 in/lb torque wrench with 5mm head) at home. Oh, pardon me! I forgot to mention one hex key for the scope adjustment that is always with me when I and any of my rifles go together anywhere.

For me, time is $$$$, and the time the switch barrel guys will be wrenching / zeroing, I'll be shooting.

I am lazy and don't like to rush unnecessarily, so I change calibers in three minutes: about 1.5 minutes for the caliber change itself, and 1.5 minutes to adjust the scope. But that's me. I'm sure you'd send many rounds downrange in that time.

Oh....yeah.... 1 more thing.... DTA / AI don't offer the 338 Norma caliber I wanted, so that's kinda a problem too.

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but it does:
Desert Tactical Arms SRS Conversion Kit 338 Norma Mag for Sale! - EuroOptic.com
Of course it will cost you retail $1,825.00 - since you only have a "source" on Leup scopes.

 

[garandman]

Like I said mouse....my goal here NEVER WAS to convince you to buy anything other than what you already have....

But what I have proven is that the out of pocket, real world costs to me are pretty much exactly the same for the two half MoA rifles I have, vs. the retail cost of 1.5 DTA rifles, also half MoA.

All for the privilege of less gun, less shooting, more fiddling, more room in the safe.

 

[garandman]

Second - are you suggesting that premier switch barrel manufacturers are trying to discourage potential buyers by pricing their products so high as to eliminate financial appeal from moving to their systems? What about high pricing of non-switch barrel systems such as AW/AX? AX338 alone (sans glass) is $8,600.00 (one caliber, no switching AFAIK). .

Evidence civilians are free to spend their money however they want, and a gov't agency doesn't really care how it spends other people's money

 

[sandwarrior]

Garandman and Mouse07410,

A number of threads you guys quoted some of my answers. I was in a hurry and see that I wasn't so clear.

"Interjecting junk" Anytime you have a space between a receiver and a barrel that can be filled with crap and then clamped down on, will cause a change in POI. Getting back to "how well the system is machined" is going to alleviate that issue. Tight tolerance threaded barrels are going to push the crap out. Of course, if the shooter ever let it get in there in the first place. In a different type scenario where the barrel is pinned or a tenon leads into a tight tolerance bore of the receiver, the design is usually there so that the crap won't stay where it can get clamped to cause the poi shift. A simple way to cure this is to have a compact cleaning system on hand in case the barrel or rifle gets dropped during the swap.

Optics. One of the really great things you can do with switch barrels is not only switch the barrel, but switch class of cases. One of the best examples I saw of this was the Mauser M03 Tactical. A pretty simple swap-out of the barrel and bolt head and magazines will take you from a .338 Lapua to a .5.56/.300 BLK ...and everything in between. There is even make a bolt head that allows you to shoot .22LR. The 5.56 and .22LR mags fit inside a .338 Mag.

Obviously with the change in barrels comes a change in mission. One day an LE sniper might need to reach clear across the airport with some authority. The high power scope is a must. The next time he may find himself with no more than a 75 yd. shot at a body part and no chance of overpenetration. The optics are simply going to have to change. The picatinny system works great for that and can be machined on the receiver or bolted. The older Mauser Turret style also allows different optics to be ready for changing situations. The point is with them is to keep the optic true to the receiver and zeroed for the various needs it might undergo throughout it's day.

Cost comes from making all these parts fit one receiver. In standard "off the shelf" bases you find pretty good tolerances today. 40 years ago we were always having to adjust to one side or the other to split a 100 and 500 yd. POI. Meaning if I'm off .005" to the left with my scope it's going to take 4 clicks to get it zeroed L-R at 100. But what you are doing there is converging poa of barrel and poa of scope. Past 100 yds. the poa's diverge (move apart). If you shot the rifle at 500 the bullet would hit 5" to the left. You then zero the scope somewhere in between, accepting you're off at both ranges. In a good switch barrel set-up, this is minimized by using one optic when you can, or using the same base accuracy you used with the first ones when you do have to switch.

On the rifle side, cost is always associated with having to QC every step of the way. And each individual item that takes extra time to build as well. A machine that runs $50 an hour to take raw material and make it into a standard receiver is going to be the same dollars per hour of planning and mapping out a different action that accepts a switch barrel.

Something to consider here. We are talking two different types of switchbarrel. One is a standard screw in type with either a shoulder or a barrel nut to set headspace. The other types are interupted Acme threads or trapezoidal threads with a slot cut in them. Savage 99 take-downs used this type. FWIW, I got my 1915 in .250-3000 to shoot 1.25 moa consistently. I pulled it apart regularly. Other kinds have a flat side held by a taper pin or a key or a cam. The accuracy is possible if the mating surfaces are extremely close and the retaining system is strong in the way it retains the barrel.

 

[BLDTYLRY]

"Thoughts on switch barrel systems....tell me I'm wrong..."

Per the title of the Thread...You're Wrong! No reason other than this is a subjective topic and I'm going to state my opinion. Not here to convince you to change yours or point out mine but the fallacy in your argument lead me to believe you are just trying to justify your position and the decisions you have made.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

You can use the same scope on a switch barrel for as many calibers as you want. Start with let's say .223, zero rifle and have that set as your base zero, slap on a 6CM barrel, shoot for your zero using the preset zero, mark down what that zero is so you know your adjustment when using that barrel...repeat for all additional calibers that you have. If you have a quality system you will see no issues and accuracy will be repeatable. I have used the DTA system of a fellow member that is local and it always worked like a champ.

I personally only owned one scope and two rifles, I used this same procedure except swapped scope between rifles and it always repeated what it had done previously.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

And as far as costs go, sure I can buy maybe 3 Tikka T3 Lite rifles in different calibers that are cheaper than your one and I bet can shoot the same or better, therefore, you are wrong for paying that much money.

Now, in regards to the majority of individuals on this board who spend $3-4k or more on one rifle, it would be cheaper to buy a system like the DTA (only one I have experience with which is why I mention it) and buy the caliber conversions.

 

[biffj]

OK, I'll bite...back.

So....I was wrong. The DTA and my two complete rifles are EXACTLY the same money. So there is ZERO $$$ savings. The DTA would save a little space in the gunsafe, be a really wiz bang little gizmo to own, and that's about it. Thing is....with my two rifles, I don't have to worry about futzing with the scope. I don't have to worry about introducing the variables I mentioned above. I take them out, and shoot them, without having to take the toolbox to the range, knowing they are dead on accurate.

For me, time is $$$$, and the time the switch barrel guys will be wrenching / zeroing, I'll be shooting.

This idea you have that you don't need to do any scope adjustment on your 2 rifles is really not right. Unless you're shooting identical conditions at identical range with identical ammo means you'll have to make some adjustments to your scope. No time saved there.
I can swap barrels out on my DT in less than a minute, adjust the scope to the proper zero in less than that and be shooting again. Every barrel has a set change in settings. I go from 6.5X47 to .338 LM and I change the scope down 8 clicks and nothing right or left. If I go from 338LM to .338BR I go up 12 clicks and right 1. Its the same every time. It takes no real time. After that I'm just like you and all the other single rifle shooters our there, I have to figure out settings for the current range using info I worked up on each cal. You have to do that with your rifles too.
I have done quick changes at machinegun and suppressor shoots to demo both my suppressors and the rifle. It can be done quick in the field and not really any longer than it takes you to set down one rifle and pick up another, set it up on your bench and make any corrections for temp, wind or any other condition changes. Your original question asked if it was reasonably doable and the answer is yes it is. Are there problems in the systems...? Maybe but not the ones you were worried about. Can you get the accuracy out of a switch barrel that you can out of a fixed barrel? Yes you can. So now we've done all this talk and answered your questions but you still seem to have a chip sitting there. If you're offended by internet boards you might not want to participate on them. People call me names and bitch and moan all the time. I ignore them and have a pretty good time, learn a lot and don't get into too many pursefights. Its really amazing what kind of vocabulary and typing skills the average 10 year old has now days....don't worry about them and you're life will be a lot easier.

Frank

 

[garandman]

This idea you have that you don't need to do any scope adjustment on your 2 rifles is really not right. Unless you're shooting identical conditions at identical range with identical ammo means you'll have to make some adjustments to your scope. No time saved there.

I don't follow you. Every SINGLE time I pull out my 6.5CM and shoot it at 200 yards, its dead on zeroed there. Same with the 338 at its zero point. No fiddling, just shooting. And I always use the same ammo - my handloads.

Zeroing for conditions is a wash, cuz it also would be necessary with both fixed and switch barrel set ups.

If I had a switch barrel, I'd have to switch out to the 338 setup, re-zero the scope, then switch BACK to the 6.5CM set up, and re-re-zero the scope.

And since I'd want to shoot both calibers, I'd have to bring the tool kit, and do the switch at the range, not on my work bench.

You may consider than a small price to pay to have the setup u want. And you are free to do so. That's a personal opinion thing.

But unless I'm missing something, my original analysis was correct.

 

[garandman]

Rule # 1 of gun debates - We're all convinced how we spent our money is the best way to go. We spent a lot of time and research making sure it was. And we're all highly unlikely to admit the $3-4-5 grand spent was an unwise choice.

Caveat to Rule #1 - The "best way to go" is different for every gun buyer. It doesn't extend to other gun buyers, necessarily.

My comments here apply ONLY to me, in my decision making. All are free to have different "best way to go" definitions.

Third time saying it - I'm not trying to convince anyone else they should have bought other than what they did.

 

[garandman]

If you're offended by internet boards you might not want to participate on them. People call me names and bitch and moan all the time. I ignore them and have a pretty good time, learn a lot and don't get into too many pursefights. Its really amazing what kind of vocabulary and typing skills the average 10 year old has now days....don't worry about them and you're life will be a lot easier.

Frank

That seems like the "smart money", but....

First, I don't get "offended." That would be me granting others a power over me, that I refuse to grant them.

Second, I refuse to tolerate petty, childish antics, profanity in anger, "bitching and moaning" and all other childish behavior by people who are supposed to be adults. On the internet , or in person. I treat others with basic human decency and respect, and expect it in return. I'm tired of our society sliding toward Gomorrah in what we tolerate. I won't do it. You can if you want to. I've made a different choice.

 

[meyersa88]

I don't follow you. Every SINGLE time I pull out my 6.5CM and shoot it at 200 yards, its dead on zeroed there. Same with the 338 at its zero point. No fiddling, just shooting. And I always use the same ammo - my handloads.

Zeroing for conditions is a wash, cuz it also would be necessary with both fixed and switch barrel set ups.

If I had a switch barrel, I'd have to switch out to the 338 setup, re-zero the scope, then switch BACK to the 6.5CM set up, and re-re-zero the scope.

And since I'd want to shoot both calibers, I'd have to bring the tool kit, and do the switch at the range, not on my work bench.

You may consider than a small price to pay to have the setup u want. And you are free to do so. That's a personal opinion thing.

But unless I'm missing something, my original analysis was correct.

I think what he was trying to get at was that you had said you didn't want to have to mess around with your scope but with two different calibers with one scope that's not typically possible. If you had a nightforce with zerostop you'd never have to remember the zero for one caliber and then you could have a sheet for each other barrel to adjust from there, and then as others have said you just need your dope charts for each caliber. Although working on your rifle at a shooting bench can be a pain, I don't think that using a switch barrel like a DTA or even a barrel nut system requires much. It would probably take the same amount of time to pack up the rifle you just used and then set up everything for the second rifle you take out. For me a barrel nut system was the cheapest way that I could afford a fully custom rifle and then be able to have more, because I knew once I got the dang thing I would want another and justifying a mire $800-$1,000 for a second caliber is a lot easier to justify they spending $5,000+ just to say I have two custom rifles.

 

[garandman]

I think what he was trying to get at was that you had said you didn't want to have to mess around with your scope but with two different calibers with one scope that's not typically possible. If you had a nightforce with zerostop you'd never have to remember the zero for one caliber and then you could have a sheet for each other barrel to adjust from there, and then as others have said you just need your dope charts for each caliber. Although working on your rifle at a shooting bench can be a pain, I don't think that using a switch barrel like a DTA or even a barrel nut system requires much. It would probably take the same amount of time to pack up the rifle you just used and then set up everything for the second rifle you take out. For me a barrel nut system was the cheapest way that I could afford a fully custom rifle and then be able to have more, because I knew once I got the dang thing I would want another and justifying a mire $800-$1,000 for a second caliber is a lot easier to justify they spending $5,000+ just to say I have two custom rifles.

Gotcha. Thanx.

I strongly suspect I'm done with precision rifle calibers. The 6.5CM gets me from 200 - 1,000, and the 338NM gets me from 1,000 - 1 mile. Anything else would be redundant. Of course, that's purely a personal decision I've made, that doesn't apply to anyone else.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

I don't follow you. Every SINGLE time I pull out my 6.5CM and shoot it at 200 yards, its dead on zeroed there. Same with the 338 at its zero point. No fiddling, just shooting. And I always use the same ammo - my handloads.

Zeroing for conditions is a wash, cuz it also would be necessary with both fixed and switch barrel set ups.

If I had a switch barrel, I'd have to switch out to the 338 setup, re-zero the scope, then switch BACK to the 6.5CM set up, and re-re-zero the scope.

And since I'd want to shoot both calibers, I'd have to bring the tool kit, and do the switch at the range, not on my work bench.

You may consider than a small price to pay to have the setup u want. And you are free to do so. That's a personal opinion thing.

But unless I'm missing something, my original analysis was correct.

You don't ever have to re-zero on a switch barrel so I don't know why you are still stuck on that and it really can't be messed up, especially if your scope has zero stop.

And the "tool kit" for a DTA is one wrench I believe, you don't even have to move the rifle from your shooting position to change it. The change takes about 60 seconds to perform, I don't think you can pack up one rifle and un-pack another and get it ready for shooting in that time.

And for the record, I do not own a DTA, AI or any other fancy switch barrel rifle. Hell I don't even have a rifle right now, it's being "built" and by that I mean a T3 donor action, new barrel and stock with no action work. I am basing my statements off facts, actual use of the DTA and conventional "single caliber" systems and the actual merit of the DTA system.

Here is a video showing the return to zero with the DTA system, I believe they are shooting at 600 yds.
Video posted 2 posts down.

 

[garandman]

Watched the vid.

Observations:
1. Barrel change was very quick and easy.
2. Return to zero was very quick and easy, sort of...
3. The 338 groups was centered prolly 4 to 6" right of the 308 group, assuming the post holding up the target was a 4x4.
4. The .308 group was well over MoA at 600 yards. I'd estimate 8+"

Seems like the system is designed for "Minute of Man" accuracy. At 1000 yards, the 338 would have been a clear miss. I would NOT call the 338 "zeroed" for anything other than combat conditions, and not even really for that, if "only hits count."

True zero would require some windage adjustment.

What I *** really*** would like to see is the .308 put back into the gun, and see where it prints. THAT is the real test of this system.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Hmmm, ok, let me try it again.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Try this one.

SRS Return To Zero Demonstration After Barrel Conversion - YouTube

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Actual shooting start at 1:18 I believe.

 

[garandman]

Actual shooting start at 1:18 I believe.

I got thru it. Thanks for posting it. It helped clarify some of my misconceptions, and validate some of my other thoughts.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

You're welcome.

 

[jbell]

As I said before this is an interesting thread, lots of view point form many different point of views (I hope that made sense). I have an observation/thought on the switch barrel thing and a question for garandman.

1st the observation: I suppose you have to ask yourself what is the application of the (lets say just 2 calibers for sake of time) 2 calibers. Is there an expected accuracy level like hits on a specific size target vs misses at varying distances or will it be used to produce the smallest possible group like in a group comp similar to F class or benchrest. If it is the latter then you would have no real need for a switch barrel rifle so this is a moot point as these type of matches are usually held in a range setting where it is easy to transport all your gear up to the firing line even if it requires more than 1 trip. But if you are in a hit or miss style comp shot over a wide and varying area with shooting points that will require humping all your crap to over rough terrain and long distance then more than 1 rifle becomes the moot point. So each has its place. Now to expand on that a bit more not just any switch barrel will fit the bill of the latter scenario because you cant carry an action wrench and barrel vice to the boonies so the new PSR style rifles (like the DTA) are it. But to be honest there are not many times when you will ever need to have a "non magnum" and a "magnum" caliber for 1 match so everything I just said is kinda a moot point.

But where this really comes into play is in cost savings: say you plan on shooting "short range" 100-700 put your 20" 308 barrel on that you should get around 5K rounds or more out of. But then the next time you go out the wind is cranking and you want to shoot 900-1300 put your sub 2K round fast twist 243 on and have at it. IMO this is the reason for a switch barrel set up, but only the end user can justify if it really suits there needs...

Now my question:
To the OP, you just stated after watching the DTA video "It helped clarify some of my misconceptions, and validate some of my other thoughts." What were the thought that were validated?

 

[jbell]

For the record I have some time with the DTA but am not affiliated with them nor do I own one. I do however think they are one of the best systems out there especially for the cost. I am currently having a TRG set up as a switch barrel rifle, why because I want to and that is the only reason...

 

[garandman]

Now my question:
To the OP, you just stated after watching the DTA video "It helped clarify some of my misconceptions, and validate some of my other thoughts." What were the thought that were validated?

An 8+ inch group, for me, would be a horrible group at 600.

The 338 group moved significantly right from the 308 group. Enuf to cause a likely miss at 1000.

What is for me, confirmed, is that when you have interchangeable barrels, you will get significant decreased accuracy and consistency compared to a fixed barrel rifle. Obviously, that can be corrected by dialing in your scope.

But I'm a bullseye type shooter - that wants tight little groups. If others want minute of man accuracy, then the DTA would certainly be good enuf for them.

 

[Bradu]

An 8+ inch group, for me, would be a horrible group at 600.

The 338 group moved significantly right from the 308 group. Enuf to cause a likely miss at 1000.

What is for me, confirmed, is that when you have interchangeable barrels, you will get significant decreased accuracy and consistency compared to a fixed barrel rifle. Obviously, that can be corrected by dialing in your scope.

But I'm a bullseye type shooter - that wants tight little groups. If others want minute of man accuracy, then the DTA would certainly be good enuf for them.

Why do you say decreased accuracy and consistency? The rifle will be a 1/2 moa rifle, it's a matter of rezeroing the scope after a barrel swap. You can't expect a barrel swap to have the same point of impact without dialing the turrets.

 

[jbell]

I think he is referring to the video posted. It didn't shoot 1/2 MOA in the video. Yes I know it is shooter dependent and it also looked to be pretty cold during the filming of that video. I also don't think they were trying to prove accuracy but just repeatability.

 

[garandman]

I think the video speaks for itself. The shooter was taking aimed shots - about the same timeframe I'll shoot half MoA groups.

All thru the thread, I kept hearing, "This is a half MoA rifle." Then we get video of over MoA, and then the excuse making starts.

And there IS NO disputing the zero moved right, necessitating not just a elevation adjustment, but also a windage adjustment. All thru this thread, every body kept telling me "No windage adjustment is necessary."

Basically, the video showed all the claims were .... less than true. And that my suspicions were confirmed.

Not that I'm any genius. Basic logic tells you when you introduce variables into precision rifle shooting, you get variation.

All that adjustment is fine.... if that's what you want to do.

I don't.

 

[Bradu]

I didn't watch the video so that makes more sense.

 

[coldboremiracle]

An 8+ inch group, for me, would be a horrible group at 600.

The 338 group moved significantly right from the 308 group. Enuf to cause a likely miss at 1000.

What is for me, confirmed, is that when you have interchangeable barrels, you will get significant decreased accuracy and consistency compared to a fixed barrel rifle. Obviously, that can be corrected by dialing in your scope.

But I'm a bullseye type shooter - that wants tight little groups. If others want minute of man accuracy, then the DTA would certainly be good enuf for them.

Im not sure about the shooter in the video, but I'll say this; I had my 16" .308 barrel in my SRS for a couple weeks, always shoots submoa. pulled it out last saturday afternoon, and slid in the .260 barrel. Torqued it down, and split up into the mountains. after hiking around looking for rockchucks (didnt find any) we sat down, and picked out a rock (4-6") on a hillside about 673 yards away. Boom......hit. took it to 903, and 1375. with same results, except the 1375 I missed the wind, but a quick followup hit it right. This has been my experience with DTA rifles and barrels. Every time it is right, and shoots better than me.

 

[jbell]

I think the video speaks for itself. The shooter was taking aimed shots - about the same timeframe I'll shoot half MoA groups.

All thru the thread, I kept hearing, "This is a half MoA rifle." Then we get video of over MoA, and then the excuse making starts.

And there IS NO disputing the zero moved right, necessitating not just a elevation adjustment, but also a windage adjustment. All thru this thread, every body kept telling me "No windage adjustment is necessary."

Basically, the video showed all the claims were .... less than true. And that my suspicions were confirmed.

Not that I'm any genius. Basic logic tells you when you introduce variables into precision rifle shooting, you get variation.

All that adjustment is fine.... if that's what you want to do.

I don't.

I didn't mean to make any excuses, I only said that because I was not there or pulling the trigger. I do have to say the DTA I have shot was a very good shooter. How good, I cant say specifically I didn't shoot it that much. But it was impressive for sure...

 

[meyersa88]

POI will change purely based on the runout of the barrel compared to where it is indexed or on a barrel nut where ever it is stopped when the barrel nut is attached. So those that had no elevation change must have been lucky or whoever made the barrel made sure the runout was toward the 12 o'clock position. If you agree that an AR-15 style rifle can be a >.5 MOA rifle and that a bolt rifle typical has better accuracy than an AR-15, then why can't a bolt rifle have nearly the same barrel attachment system and not retain its accuracy?

 

[garandman]

If you agree that an AR-15 style rifle can be a >.5 MOA rifle and that a bolt rifle typical has better accuracy than an AR-15, then why can't a bolt rifle have nearly the same barrel attachment system and not retain its accuracy?

Well, cuz an AR15 is a fixed, single barrel setup no different than a bolt gun .... and a switch barrel system uses multiple barrels in a detachable barrel system.... was that a trick question?

 

[meyersa88]

Well, cuz an AR15 is a fixed, single barrel setup.... and a switch barrel system uses multiple barrels in a detachable barrel system.... was that a trick question?

No, because an AR-15 barrel is held to the receiver with a barrel nut. I could swap barrels on my AR-15 the same as a barrel nut set-up similar to one that I described above.

 

[E. Bryant]

Every SINGLE time I pull out my 6.5CM and shoot it at 200 yards, its dead on zeroed there. Same with the 338 at its zero point.

Is that the same .338 that was still a work-in-progress earlier in the thread? That sure got finished quickly!

My 338NM will be built on a TAC338.

My 338 Norma being built...

 

[garandman]

No, because an AR-15 barrel is held to the receiver with a barrel nut. I could swap barrels on my AR-15 the same as a barrel nut set-up similar to one that I described above.

If you did that, you would be introducing the same variables as the switch barrel system. Likely ending up with the same variation. Doing that would be doing away with the advantages of a fixed barrel system.

 

[meyersa88]

So people that put their own AR-15's together have rifles with variations built into them because they let your variables into their rifle when it was built? None hostile question BTW.

 

[biffj]

Having done the old box test with my .338LM and the 6.5X47 then going back to .338LM it looked to me like the rifle rezeros quite well. The nightforce scope works very well too. The 338 was hitting right back where it started. Going back to the 6.5 I ended up with another good set of bullet holes touching the ones fired previously. I'm happy and pretty much done with the thread. You asked a question and got a lot of pretty good answers but don't seem to be happy with the answers. I'm not going to change your mind and you won't change mine. I've got nothing to sell you and you're not buying anyway.


Frank