Rifle Scopes time for an optics upgrade...

[mjmcmahon]

Hi all -

been reading for a few days and haven't been able to find an answer to my burning question: which direction for a mid-range scope?

I've topped my Savage 10FCP-HS with a Burris XTR 3-12. Unfortunately, I don't feel like I'm able to hold the same point of aim at distant targets (>300yds) with the current optics and want to step up to a better scope. The reality of my situation, though, is that dropping $1200+ on a new optic just isn't in the cards at the moment. I'm shooting at ~300 now and want to get to a point where I'm regularly shooting at 500+, eventually at 1000.

Any suggestions on which direction to go?

Thanx in advance!

 

[al redneck]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

I recently bought a Vortex Viper 6.5-20 x 50mm scope for my 22 trainer. It has excellent glass and tracks perfectly. I think they still have a $50 rebate so it will cost about $450 delivered after rebate. It is 2nd fp and I don't think it is etched glass reticle, and isn't 'built like a tank' but is a great scope for the money. I might have bought a SS 10x HD if I had to get a scope for one of my 'serious' rifles and couldn't afford a PR Heritage scope. I use 10x at 1000 yds on a 10" swinger and it works fine. You don't get the warm and fuzzy feeling a 22 or 25 power scope but it does work.

david

 

[treebasher]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

No need to go over 15 power. I regularly shoot out to a thousand and past with an NXS 3.5-15 x 50 F1 Nightforce. I also have a DPMS LR-308 with a 4x14 Falcon that you can shoot very well out to around a thousand. I am a firm believer that too much magnification can actually hinder your shooting.

For the money I don't think you can beat the Falcon Menace 4x14 FFP.

http://www.rwsnydergunsmithing.com/secure-rwsnydergunsmithing/Scripts/prodView.asp?idProduct=37

And if you are insistent on a higher magnification scope you can always go with the Falcon Menace 5-25x50.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

MJMcMahon,

Welcome to the Hide...So many questions, so little information. It is tough for anybody to recommend a solution to your problems, if you don't: Articulate what your problem is.

You state that: "Unfortunately, I don't feel like I'm able to hold the same point of aim at distant targets (>300yds) with the current optics and want to step up to a better scope."

Does that mean: You cannot see your target? Or you can see it, but cannot hit it? How does your current combo work at 100 yds or 200 yds?

See what I mean? All three elements, rifle (with it's load), scope and shooter must be in synch to hit anything at long range, which I define as over 250 yds. If your load or rifle is NFG, then changing your scope will not make you more accurate.

So I'm not busting your chops, but please elucidate on exactly what your problem is, and what goals you want to achieve.

A Burris XTR may not be the best scope ever made, but to say that 12x is inadequate to see a target @ 300 yds usually means that your target is way too small, or that the scope itself is defective. Have you tested if your scope tracks true?

Certainly a 12x scope is enough to see and hit a target @ 1000 yds, much less 300 yds. Are you and your rifle?


Please expound. Thanks,

Bob

 

[duaneb]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

You might try reading the thread "Fundamentals of Marksmanship" if you haven't aready done so. I am in no way telling you that you are a bad marksman, simply there is a great deal of information in that and other threads that might solve your problem without spending any cash.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

+1 Also, for I believe 10 bucks a month...(it has been coming out automatically) you can join the online training forum. That may cure a lot of bad habits without dropping money on a new scope AND you support the hide by doing so.

 

[mjmcmahon]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MJMcMahon,

Welcome to the Hide...So many questions, so little information. It is tough for anybody to recommend a solution to your problems, if you don't: Articulate what your problem is.

You state that: "Unfortunately, I don't feel like I'm able to hold the same point of aim at distant targets (>300yds) with the current optics and want to step up to a better scope."

Does that mean: You cannot see your target? Or you can see it, but cannot hit it? How does your current combo work at 100 yds or 200 yds?</div></div>

Sorry....posting from work with many distractions and didn't take the time to add some of the details you're asking for.

Here's the deal: yes, I CAN hit the target (12" paper at 300) but, since I'm not consistently on the same point of aim (difficult to detect minor shifts off of the center of the paper), it's hard to say just how well I'm shooting at that distance. I could hit a gong all day, but I want to see just how precise I can get...i.e. can I stay within a sub MOA group at that distance. As for 100 and 200, I'm able to maintain a <3/8" 5-shot group at 100 with either of my target rifles (Savage 10FCP-HS in .308 or CZ-527 in .223) Part of the issue may have been being 'spoiled' by the scope on my .223: a Sightron S3 6-24x56 Mildot.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A Burris XTR may not be the best scope ever made, but to say that 12x is inadequate to see a target @ 300 yds usually means that your target is way too small, or that the scope itself is defective. Have you tested if your scope tracks true?</div></div>

I haven't run tracking tests....on the list of 'fun stuff to do on some slow Saturday when there's nothing goin on'

What size targets are considered 'too small' for ranges of 300-400? For 500-700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Certainly a 12x scope is enough to see and hit a target @ 1000 yds, much less 300 yds. Are you and your rifle?


Please expound. Thanks,

Bob

</div></div>

That's what I'm hoping to find out, eventually. Since I haven't been able to get onto the only 1000yd range in the area, I've had to find natural 'ranges' to play at. Heavy winds (15-20Mph) have made me hesitant to test the waters at extended ranges the last couple weekends.

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

I think that reticle thickness might be more of a problem for you than magnification. Those thick mildot cross hairs are used for silouhette targets and vehicles which you would be good on for long range, but if your shooting small targets at long range why not a different reticle? How often do you use the mildots? Leupold vx3 are affordable and have a nice varmint reticle. You would be supprised how far you can shoot with 14x if your reticle is fine enough, just ask anyone with a NF NXS.

 

[mjmcmahon]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

Thanks for the suggestion. I prefer to stick to the MilDot or similar reticles for the times I'm shooting at unknown ranges...more common lately. Honestly, I'm just trying to find something that's going to be better quality glass and higher magnification than my current Burris XTR 3-12. I may just hold off, put the 6-24 onto my .308 and wait until I can get a Nightforce.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

I'm not suggesting necessarily switching from a mil spaced reticle just maybe to a different thickness. The Leupold tactical milling reticle is really nice. +1 on the nightforce though.

 

[mjmcmahon]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

I've looked at the Leo's and really liked the TMR reticle. I'm just questioning the wisdom of dropping another $600 on a Leo when I could spend a few hundred more and go to a Nightforce or similar and get <span style="text-decoration: underline">all</span> the options I want: mil/mil, FFP reticle, etc.

 

[prplhaz72]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

How about an IOR 3-18x. It has the mil reticle and it has a pretty small aiming dot in the center. If you stuck with the SFP version, then the reticle would stay small too.

http://swfa.com/IOR-3-18x42-Tactical-35mm-Rifle-Scope-P11534.aspx

Or if you want more magnification you could go with the 6-24. Same reticle, just a little more power.
http://swfa.com/IOR-6-24x50-Tactical-35mm-Rifle-Scope-P8948.aspx

I have had both of those scopes, and currently have the 3-18x FFP and they are great scopes, and will be a nice step up in glass quality over your burris.

 

[mjmcmahon]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

Thanks for the suggestion! Not sure that $1600 is in the budget at the moment, though.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

Not that I can recommend them, but Lowlight gave the new Super Sniper scopes a pretty big thumbs up.
The price is right too.
I have one due in tomorrow I think. 10x HD.

It just got the Navy contract? Or is that old news?

 

[matchking]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: treebasher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> For the money I don't think you can beat the Falcon Menace 4x14 FFP. </div></div>
I believe that particular scope would make his "problem" worse.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MJMcMahon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> yes, I CAN hit the target (12" paper at 300) but, since I'm not consistently on the same point of aim (difficult to detect minor shifts off of the center of the paper), </div></div>
I don't think any magnication scope will produce super groups just holding center of a 12" target. Have you tried a smaller aiming point? I have a 3-12x XTR and, though I don't use it for group shooting, it allows for fairly precise POA.

If you upgrade optics, don't expect a huge night/day difference in image quality over the XTR. While the XTR series has some shortcommings, glass quality isn't one of them, IMHO.

 

[prplhaz72]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

Whats your budget?

 

[mjmcmahon]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: prplhaz72</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whats your budget?</div></div>

I expect I should be able to get $500-$600 for the XTR....say ~$1000?

 

[schwazche]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: duaneb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might try reading the thread "Fundamentals of Marksmanship" if you haven't already done so.</div></div>

Excellent advice!
Here's the link. It's saved me time and money!

 

[dan46n2]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

I was in the same situation you were in, didn't want to spend more than $1000, then it went to $1500, then $2000. Well I ordered a USO SN-3 T-Pal with illum reticle for $2500.

 

[mjmcmahon]

Re: time for an optics upgrade...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dan46n2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was in the same situation you were in, didn't want to spend more than $1000, then it went to $1500, then $2000. Well I ordered a USO SN-3 T-Pal with illum reticle for $2500. </div></div>

LOL....I can see that. I might even get away with it...until I got home

I'm wondering if a scope with all the items I want just isn't within my budgetary constraints. FFP, target turrets, a ranging reticle (preferably very thin lined considering FFP....don't want log-sized reticle!), and mil adjustments seems to quickly put a guy in the >$1500 range.

A couple of "more reasonable" options have presented themselves:

Weaver 4-20x50 Tactical: FFP, Mil-dot (look thick...may be log-like at 20x), target turrets, but MOA adjustments: $750

Bushnell Elite 6500 4.5-30: SFP (

), Mil-dot, VERY nice target turrets (much more solid and a better 'click' than the Leo Mk4), MOA adjustments: $795

A local reseller has looked at my Burris XTR 3-12x50 and has offered me $500 on trade-in. From what I've seen checking SWFA, MIL/MIL and FFP isn't available in a adjustable scope (with greater than 12x) with good quality glass for less than $2000. Surprising that none have stepped up to fill the gap.