So I'm looking to build another AR style rifle and am on the fence between one chambered in .223 Wylde (all of my current ones are 5.56) or the 6mm ARC. From what I've read on the 6mm ARC it is best for reloaders due to the fact that only hornady is currently making ammo. I do not reload. Yet. That's a rabbit hole I have not crawled into. So I'd have to rely on factory ammo. I like the 5.56 round but am looking for a round with a bit more reach since I have access to ranges up to 1k. I plan to jump into a bolt gun at some point... but I've always been fond of the gas gun.
- Thread starter phantasm
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Target gun.
I would definitely recommend starting to reload before you build another rifle, especially one basically limited to reloading only like the 6mm ARC is right now.
You’ll get 200 fps more almost and can tailor for best accuracy if you start reloading. It’s definitely a rabbit hole though. A big question is if you have access to reloading supplies or will be relying on the interwebs? That gets expensive quick.
Just thinking out loud, I also have access to 1k yards and have built a lot of guns in my head for exactly that, but when I'm being honest with myself I remember that 95% of my shooting beyond 200 yards is still inside 700. That's about where I start seeing a definite advantage to my 6mm. I still shoot the 6mm inside that range, but it's because I want to, not because it's way better. Conversely, when I shoot beyond 700 I still bring a 5.56 with in addition to the 6mm, because I want to and it's fun, not because it's the best.
Same. I’m always bringing the 5.56 anywhere that stretches out to get load data and like you said, have fun. Pigg River is a great one in VA. Plenty of challenging targets 700 and less. Then put to 1200 or so if you want. I like using my 12.5” barrel and 1-8
That was the reason for thinking .223 Wylde as well. More than likely I'll stay within 800m because any more than that and I'd look to a 6.5cm or something similar. My 16" hits 300 all day. I havent stretched it to 500 or beyond yet but that was because I wasn't signed off to shoot the longer ranges until recently.
Pigg River in VA huh? I'll have to google that one and see where it is.
They do open range days 3 times a year or so and you can shoot all day for $60. Registration is on PracticeScore. It’s just south of Rocky Mount VA.
I agree with others. ARC is nice, real nice but still niche. Since you said you have a few 556 rifles around. I’d do this: grab a Wylde barrel to convert a 556 over. Buy a 6ARC barrel, bolt and a couple brands of mags (my rifle likes ASC) to convert another of your 556 guns. Try out both options to see if you are happy. Nothing is more annoying than building a rifle just figure out what seemed great on paper wasn’t when in the hand.
Edit to add:
Part of the “problem“ with developing the ammunition and rifle together is performance is seldom left on the table. The AR-15 has a mag well, bolt, barrel extension, and upper receiver optimized for 556 cartridges. Everything else we try to cram there isn’t going to be mind blowing better; incremental at best, and often underwhelming.
In many ways the 6ARC and 6.5 Grendel are the equivalent of connecting a turbo changed engine to a mis-geared transmission keeping it outside the power band. Both would benefit from a larger mag well, larger diameter bolt and barrel extension (and maybe even different upper to fit them).
Edit to add:
Part of the “problem“ with developing the ammunition and rifle together is performance is seldom left on the table. The AR-15 has a mag well, bolt, barrel extension, and upper receiver optimized for 556 cartridges. Everything else we try to cram there isn’t going to be mind blowing better; incremental at best, and often underwhelming.
In many ways the 6ARC and 6.5 Grendel are the equivalent of connecting a turbo changed engine to a mis-geared transmission keeping it outside the power band. Both would benefit from a larger mag well, larger diameter bolt and barrel extension (and maybe even different upper to fit them).
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Don't discount 6.5G for way of staying connected to factory ammo availability. Yes, it doesn't have the same [reach out] target potential as the new wonder ARC, but it's been getting it done out to 1000 for a while now. Under a few hundred yards, it's a better medium game hunting caliber as well.
I wont waste smRifle primers on anything besides 6ARC. I never shot .243 but once I saw the bullet options + the case design I jumped in and havent looked back. My poverty pony stays zeroed at 600. I can shoot it and watch the impacts appear on steel, its so soft shooting. I sold all my 223 dies and 20,000 prepped cases.
Here are a couple of Rumble links of said cheap horse:
I would say just build an upper and buy some ammo and try it out. I am a firm believer of "dip toes in the water cheaply" and constand upgrade/build vs buy. If you get into reloading skip the kit shit and just get an old single stage and some dies, a cheap electronic scale and hand primer unit and your started.
Here are a couple of Rumble links of said cheap horse:
I would say just build an upper and buy some ammo and try it out. I am a firm believer of "dip toes in the water cheaply" and constand upgrade/build vs buy. If you get into reloading skip the kit shit and just get an old single stage and some dies, a cheap electronic scale and hand primer unit and your started.
I built a 6 ARC gasser using a Proof 20" barrel. Just finally finished up 100rds of factory Black and 400rds of factory Match. Can't get a 1.25moa 5-shot group if my life depended on it. First 100rds velocity using factory Black was 2580 fps avg. Rounds 101-270 was using Match and avg'd 2590 fps fps. From the 270th round and up I had a huge spike in velocity to 2660 fps. Hoping hand loads can get me down to 0.7moa or better otherwise this build is going into the garbage. Around 200th round I took it all apart and re-bedded the barrel extension into the receiver too. Groups stayed the same. During this build's process I also built a .223 wylde for my daughter. Using cheap BCA, PSA Aero parts her AR was getting 0.625" 5-shot groups using 77gr Nosler Match factory ammo.
What bolt are you using?
My best has been .931 MOA with a Noveske 16" stainless steel barrel in 5.56 with the Nosler Match Grade 77gr factory ammo. I've been pretty happy with that. The .223 wylde looks interesting to me... so does 6mm ARC. Need to look into kickstarting my reloading interests and then maybe moving onto the 6mm ARC platform. Maybe I'll do a Wylde in the interim and see if I can stretch it out to 700'ish for giggles.
First 200ish rds I used a CMC 6ARC Enhanced bcg. Then switched the bolt to JP only to switch back when it didn't affect groupings.
I like my 6arc so far. I figured given the extra velocity it would be a little better for deer than my 6.5 grendel. I have some 90 tgk 95sst 105 vld 90 nobler partitions to mess around with.
If all a guy did was reload for one cartridge it would be a cakewalk. Brass choice for 6ARC is KISS too, lol. Small rifle primers are in stock now, mostly. Single stage press with Hornady sure-lock rings on the die bodies to maintain depth settings is easy button. Weigh powder with just an electronic scale. No need for powder dispenser. 21st Century mandrel die body and .240-.242 mandrels if you teeter towards getting serious about it all.
My first choice would be 6.5G. 6ARC second.
Get the wire gauge drill bit set from Harbor Fright to modify your gas port if needed.
My first choice would be 6.5G. 6ARC second.
Get the wire gauge drill bit set from Harbor Fright to modify your gas port if needed.
I'm running a 20" Proof carbon and my buddy used the same barrel. We are getting roughly the same speeds around 2660 with Hornady 108 match. My rifle shoots roughly .500-.600 groups at 100, his is slightly larger (probably shooter related). The differences are receiver and bolt. I have a VLTOR with a JP BCG and his is an Aero with their BCG. Different muzzle devices too.
I finally was able to run mine out past 600 to get dope. Solid performer to 1000 with 9.9 mils dialed on the scope. It did well in the switchy wind we had that day. Surprisingly well actually. It outshot my buddy's AR10 308 with a 22" Criterion barrel. 6 ARC had less wind drift and drop compared to the 308. Not much, but it was noticeable in the wind that day.
I'm very happy with the performance so far. I say build one. Just use good parts and barrel.
I finally was able to run mine out past 600 to get dope. Solid performer to 1000 with 9.9 mils dialed on the scope. It did well in the switchy wind we had that day. Surprisingly well actually. It outshot my buddy's AR10 308 with a 22" Criterion barrel. 6 ARC had less wind drift and drop compared to the 308. Not much, but it was noticeable in the wind that day.
I'm very happy with the performance so far. I say build one. Just use good parts and barrel.
I had a 6 ARC built from a larue 6.5 grendel ultimate upper kit, proof 18" CF barrel, OSS 7.62 TI can, overall super happy with it. Shoots .5-.75 MOA all day with factory 108ELD. I have shot the rifle out to and little past 1000 with very consistent results, highly recommend the ARC and highly recommend proof barrels.
Yep, 20" Proof carbon barrel settled at 2660 but no where as good as groups as yours. Suppressed about 1.25moa. Brake and no muzzle device yielded just over 1 moa. Did try a JP bolt, same results. So.....I should try a full JP bcg...but man are they expensive!
100% get an ARC. I was on the fence but really like mine. 20” proof carbon with JP BCG surrounded by seekins. Shoots good with suppressor.
Don’t mess with the Hornady black. 108 ELDM is sub Moa 10 shot group and 103 is around 1 MOA but consistently groups nice at 700. 1 axis and 1 hog down with the ARC too. 2600+ with 108 eldm. 2700 with 103 eldx. Really like it.
Oh and to add I reload extensively but have enjoyed shooting factory in the arc. Ready to develop a load but it’s so easy to just grab a box and be happy.
Don’t mess with the Hornady black. 108 ELDM is sub Moa 10 shot group and 103 is around 1 MOA but consistently groups nice at 700. 1 axis and 1 hog down with the ARC too. 2600+ with 108 eldm. 2700 with 103 eldx. Really like it.
Oh and to add I reload extensively but have enjoyed shooting factory in the arc. Ready to develop a load but it’s so easy to just grab a box and be happy.
I don't know why. Lots of things can affect accuracy from what I have read. Barrel torque, play between the upper/lower, chamber dimensions and straightness, headspace, torque on the receiver from loading the bipod a lot...I'm not a gunsmith but I stick to basic checks and use a standard torque value to start with. My sample size is 2 since my buddy is running the same barrel and we are getting about the same results with different uppers, handguards and BCG's. The constant is ammo and barrel.
Double check everything before throwing parts at it. Maybe let a known good shooter try it and see if its any different for them. Then contact Proof and see what they say.
Double check everything before throwing parts at it. Maybe let a known good shooter try it and see if its any different for them. Then contact Proof and see what they say.
You would really like Hammer Bullets 6mm offerings. They would shine in the 6ARC. 80gr Hunter would be up there in velocity and DRT critters like a champ. Hammer bullets are notorious for being stupid easy to load develop. Everything I've tried is sub-sub-MOA. LOL. They also came out with a tipped version with 75r and 90gr. Being a solid copper mono shank, speed kills and going a little lighter in bullet weight helps in that regard.
Your Axis deer...I went to a high fence hunt ranch recently, it was still 2000 acres. An Axis doe decided to have her fawn by my cabin. I saw that fawn go from literally, "Wet behind the ears" no walk, to skittering around the camp in two hours. The doe had a lot of personality and pretty smart really. She had her fawn where no other animals would dare come near. It was really cool.
I also smoked a corsican ram with a 88gr Hammer hunter. 243AI 3600fps. That thing didn't know what to do after hit. All slosh inside the vitals and a backflip! LOL
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Took the the gun completely apart, re-bedded the extension. I also borescoped it many times from when it was new to current. Yes, had 2 other better shooters than me shoot it and same groups too. Then all 3 of us switched to our PRS bolt guns and shot .38" groups. All factory ammo has been used up now so I will be taking it apart for the 3rd time, reassemble it then work on handloads.
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This is almost identical to the build I was thinking of except I planned on an 18" Proof barrel with Seekins receivers and handguard topped with an NF 4-20. You ugh... got a pic you're willing to share?
I have 2, 6 mm ARC rifles as the first was an assembled Areo upper with a Hanson barrel. It shot 2.5" 5 shot groups...ordered a 6mm ARC SS 18" Proof Research barrel and Areo products to complete my home built upper. Took them both to the range firing the same ammo, same day... the Areo upper turned in the usual 2.5" 5 shot group the home built Proof upper shot 5 into 1/2" first time it was fired. So I ordered another Proof SS barrel, to replace the Areo/ Hanson barrel in tbe factory upper...it shot slightly better than the first...3 shots will go into .1" to .3" and 5 shot groups usually .4" to .6" very accurate barrels, same hand loads in both barrels. I used Starline 6.5 Grendel brass and Grendel basic brass to form all 1200 pcs of 6mm ARC brass. Gas gun Max charge of Leverevolution powder and 108 Berger, 108 ELDM, & 107 Serria MK are excellent for accuracy, along with Proof SS barrels...not the carbon fiber wrap barrels, for target work.
You blood lusting heathen! It still had spots!
I've been able to take some shit shooting barrels, BA usually, by manipulating the gas system. ADJ gas blocks, drilling the port larger.
Have you ever tried bedding an AR barrel? Blue loctite? I would do that for an extension that just slips into the upper receiver. A Cerakoted receiver and slightly .001" oversize barrel extension that needs pounded into place, that is the ticket to an accurate AR.
NF ultra lite unimount.
Yep, I glue in all barrels with high temp green loctite bearing sleeve glue. Tighten to 60 ft/ lbs. Mill a channel for the gas tube if necessary. Often use adjustable gas blocks, hand lap barrels, especially ones with reamer and rifling galling with buttons, drill out gas port if needed. Center bolt carrier in reciever, using Bridgeport mill, and indexing fixture, cut down in lathe for exact fit. Mill reciever for longer cartridges, shorten & thread for barrels, pin and weld. Mill flutes in barrels, lighten bolt carriers for certain projects. Recut chamber, true reciever face. Make dies for weird calibers, like the 8.6 blackout 3 twist barrel, which was totally crap, and need to be lapped with carbide lapping compound to find the rifling ...the super fast 3 twist was totally galled with torn rifling especially at the beginning of the barrel. After a lot of work, I got it to shoot 300 gr subs pretty well. I get about 1 in three barrels from lesser manufacturers to shoot good. But cut rifled Bartlein, Proof, and most button rifled Schilen barrels are accurate right from the start. Wilson Combat has "some" good barrels for the price point, but I've also returned one after looking at it in a borescope. And had to rechamber an Odin Works barrel that was new. I just had good luck with Bartlein and Proof Research. Other barrels can shoot, but I don't use them these days. I have a Bartlein 7.5 twist on the way for 6.5 Creedmoor after I burn out the factory barrel with the new high pressure bi metal cased loads.I enjoy lots of AR calibers like the 450 bushmaster 16 twist with sub sonic 502 gr bullets to 185 gr supers in copper, or the 358 Win. to the little 6mm ARC, plus all the popular standard calibers available.
Sounds like you got a pretty solid understanding of gun plumbing an AR!
Always, learning, building, and experimenting...plus I have a full machine shop at home to play with...gotta use it. Like forming 277 Furry bi- metal cases to 6.5 Creedmoor and running 150 gr SMK to 3050 fps in a 24" standard RPR. Setteled on 3000 fps for that bullet and 3100 fps for 140 gr. Totally not recommended. Checking for lug set back, and fire cracking at intervals with the 80,000 psi cases reloaded to evaluate the viability and practicality of this invention. Did I say not recommended by any manufacturer. 3 high pressure reloadings on the cases and primer pockets are still tight case heads look like new.Sounds like you got a pretty solid understanding of gun plumbing an AR!
If I lower the pressure to normal with these cases last almost indefinitely? Questions need answers.
Need that mid-frame magwell to materialize instead of government focusing on dumb “intermediate” cartridges based on the AR-10 magwell.
I think Saudi/lwrc/magpul did it right with their 6.8 magazine/magwell. That's a great way to make large cases feed reliably in a sandy environment.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/03/12/lwrc-six8-uciw-rifle-magpul-6-8mm-spc-pmag/amp/
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/03/12/lwrc-six8-uciw-rifle-magpul-6-8mm-spc-pmag/amp/
I feed 2.940" to 2.960" length cartridges out of AR 10 depending on the magazine. Mill the reciever & barrel extension with a carbide endmill. Use cut out mags that allows the COAL to stick outside the box but confined by the lower's mag well. Or weld a .020" thick piece of metal to the new machined mag cutting down COAL by the .020". I just use the cut out mag with 6 to 8 rds. Or the Bobsled nylon mag insert for single feeding of really long cartridges for long range endevors...where a 200 gr SMK with a 715 BC can be fired out of an AR 10 18" Proof barrel at 2673 fps, with Lapua brass. Best kept 308 secret, but a 9 twist is best for accuracy, a lot of that long pointy bullet weight is not bearing surface but just sticking down the barrel leaving lots of room for powder You need an adjustable gas block here...count the clicks so ya know where you're at.
I am a retired machinist with 24 yrs experience in nuclear reactor refueling business, commerical water reactors and 15 yrs refueling the N Reactor where 70% of the material for those nuclear bombs are processed, plus submarines, cluster bombs, and missile cones, super conductors, etc...and specially contracted government items where you can not discuss or reveal your assigned project, your machine is walled off, only designated people are allowed in the area.. I consider my best invention was the nuclear fuel end cap design that allowed the spent fuel rods to be extracted, without difficulty, as they had become, when it was time to refuel the next one third of the reactor core.
Then went on to computer and robotics manufacturering for the remainder of the 35 yrs. A machinist working with engineers can have a thousand inventions and never make a dime off them, the belong to the company you work for, to make millions. I'd get a bonus on only a few..
And why I have a full machine shop at home...I can make items that is not available and don't have to wait on others to build my rifle, it gets made with my ideas and skill, so I know it's done right. A lifetime of learning alot seems easy to me, but difficult for those not exposed to this type of work. Dangerous? Inside the 8 most dangerous jobs in America when we were doing it. Zirconium fires, almost daily, sometimes twice a day, had to be a firefighter as well as a machinist. Exposed to toxic chemicals, now outlawed. Looking for fingers in the chip pan to be reattached, fairly common. Been to the emergency several times to get stitched up, the pool of blood on the floor is yours. Seen guts and skulls punctured, men pulled into machines...been there personally a few times, and I was careful. These were hard, tough men, who took no crap off anyone, it was difficult to be an apprentice for the required 5 yrs. Then college on the side... These are the unwavering, hard, tough difficult men who made Americans nuclear energy and weapons systems. I kinda became one of them ...except I think I have a better personality. LOL.. Would you consider cutting off part of your hand to get free? The pain of Being crushed, you too, just might... but I could not reach my tool box and was finally observed struggling by a co- worker to help free me. Just another 10 to 18 hr day at work... there are no holidays when a nuclear reactor is down, you work until the job is completed or someone with the same skill can releave you. And you'll receive a thank you letter from the nuclear co management. Maybe a quality pin and travel bag with a personal visit from the nuclear management public relations team. Yippee...
The good old days! Eager to learn? Is step one.
I’m always to eager to learn new skills. My current career came out of an apprenticeship style program so I know the benefits of having someone who’s been that and done that helping to instruct someone in learning. I’m very familiar with the concept I don’t know what I don’t know.
It depends on what type or how indepth you want to go. AR building or chambering and truing bolt actions. There are armorer videos and books on this subject Gordy Gritters has gunsmithing courses and videos to build accurate bolt action rifles. There is an old armorer who works on service rifles for competition who shows you alot of tricks of the trade to get competitive ARs. There are trade schools too. It all depends on what ya want to accomplish, a hobbie or become a professional. And some machine tools may be needed and be proficient on them as well as micrometers and measuring tool. ..which can be quite expensive these days. But if you have the desire and perseverance to accomplish your goals, it will happen.
You sound like me. I spent a couple days with Bob Pastor. He designed and sold the Viper line of benchrest products. Viper barrel vise is the most popular in which the layman might be aware. 9 time world champ 1000yd benchrest. I brought my barrel, reamer, head space gauges, and he showed me how to chamber. Brand new Southbend Lathe too. Bob is a "Prince of a Fellow" and had me busting a gut 90% of the time. He has a very strong comedic character to say the least. I got bit by the bug for this and will be attending machinist classes this fall. Time to start the second half of life!
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