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PRS Talk To Clarify My Earlier Statements - Death to Precision Rifle the Sequel

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Minuteman
  • Apr 12, 2001
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    So, my last post got a metric ton of responses, most of it very positive, but some of it misunderstood on several levels. If your response was to ignore the letter posted, (no I did not write it) and to attack the messenger because it offended your delicate sensibilities, you might be part of the problem.

    This is my attempt to clarify several points:

    1. I only mentioned the PRS because that is the Series I am most familiar with, and is pretty much the Gold Standard right now. It was not meant to imply there is something inherently wrong with the Series on a whole, only that I feel we can do a better job in some areas. I offered up a suggestions at the end, where I asked the PRS Series Board to consider taking a more pro-active approach to governing the shooters. I look at this like NASCAR, and will reference them to demonstrate my point.

    Much of what we see with NASCAR revolves around the Teams and Driver. I look at the Shooters and Teams the same way. We know very little about how NASCAR regulates the tracks, but we see a lot how they regulate the Teams and Drivers. Every Tuesday, Penalties are announced. The PRS needs to be a bit more heavy handed when it comes to governing the individual, it's at this level where things go wrong and have the biggest negative effect. For the most part, the matches are well established, sure things are tried, and changed all the time, but having that innovative spirit helps grow the sport.

    A bad apple does not have to be bad to a fellow competitor, he can be exactly like this letter demonstrated, a bad competitor on the inside. Manipulating the system at a match goes beyond things another competitor might see. This letter was never meant for public view, but in this case I was asked to make it public, because the letter was not signed. In fact the sender took pains to hide his identity. If we take it at it's word, it's from a group of shooters and not just one shooter.

    Most understand what the spirit of a stage is about. Instead of calling it cheating, we reference it as "Gaming", what we are doing is breaking the spirit of the stage the Match Director put forth. He wants us to use a sling we use something else is a simple example. Maybe we placed the bipod on our toes, or used a tripod. After that first guy, the flood gates are open. If the Range Officer happens to call out a competitor for this, do we argue about our innovation or take a stage DQ ? Most would call it a gamed stage, no harm no foul. Unless you are a new shooter. They see it differently.

    It's the little things that add up. When a new shooter shows up to a match for the first time and goes before the "Gamer", and then sees what happens after it is demoralizing to him or her and puts a bad taste in their mouth. But the stage brief said a Sling, he used a tall bipod ? This should be addressed on the shooter level. Many times you have a new Range Officer who doesn't want to be "That Guy" and guys see this, so they take advantage. Now a good competitor will help a new shooter to game the system, but really the fact of gaming is disrespectful to both the Range Officer and Match Director. Maybe as Match Directors we have set in stone stages and we have gamer stages ? Could be fun ...

    2. Jersey'd Shooters, I was not implying all guys who wear a Jersey are Assholes. I clearly said SOME... People have inferred 1%, 5%, maybe even 10% of the guys are jerks. In a match with 150 shooters that is a lot of jerks to deal with. One bad apple can spoil a bunch, what does 10 of them do ? If there are 800 shooters in the series and we are overlooking the 5%, that is a lot of potential for bad.

    In my opinion part of the problem is the Jersey, it's not the cause, it's just a symptom of the illness. There are lot of guys who wear Jerseys and the Companies have no idea their stuff is being advertised. In other words, they are not true sponsored shooters and just appear to be sponsored. Everything on that shirt they paid for out of their pocket and in a small way may feel the need to earn a little or even a lot of that money back. They hope to get noticed, so they buy a shirt, slap some logos on it and they are off to the matches.

    Hell I have Jersey's ... but every company on there knows I am wearing it.

    Here again, a Jersey'd Asshole might be a perfectly nice competitor but a dickhead in other areas most people don't see. Sending a letter stating how you deserve a better prize than the next guys is someone being a Stealth Asshole. Had the letter been sent under normal channels, Jacob could have and attempted to discuss the issue with the author(s) but using a anonymous email system he could not reply... answer - Frank take it public.

    Maybe if you are not sponsored refrain from wearing a jersey ? Just be yourself as nobody really cares what is on your shirt.

    To me, I was clearly angry at the author or authors or the letter. I do know people, at the time felt Jacob handled this wrong, but honestly folks, this is Jacob's Match. He (more like Lisa) gathered that prize table up, nobody else. How he choses to hand out his prizes is not our business. As I understand it 51st place still took a certificate for a complete suppressor off the table.

    Which brings me to a point :

    Where was it ever said you'd get a prize or in some way be made whole for the money we spent to attend a match ? Shooting a match is a choice, nobody forced you to do it. If a guy budgets $50,000 to shoot matches in 2017, nothing says he is getting any of that back. Truth of the matter is, if Shooter A spends $50k, and Shooter B spends $5k, you are both equal in the eyes of the Match Director. We are not weighing who is who on the line. And if you get beat by Shooter B, that is you hang up. He is getting a better prize than you.

    Attempt to finance your hobby through what you take off a prize table should not be the goal when attending a match. Comparing your skills to the next person is.

    I know there are a lot of ways to address a prize table, 1 for the shooters, 1 for the Range Officers, but at the end of the day, it all comes from the same pile.

    Matches are a ton of fun, they are a great learning experience and help us gauge our level of competence. But matches are a choice. The PRS is doing a ton to make matches more accessible to everyone by signing up 38 matches this season. They are trying to put more matches in front of more people to help keep cost down. This way guys don't have to travel as far.

    One of the things people missed is, I said straight up, I am supporting the PRS and we are hosting the Tactical Division Finale. If I had a problem to such a degree with it, why am I am working with them ? We announced it at SHOT SHOW.

    My goal was not to discourage you from shooting any given event, but to encourage those who are well aware of these transgressions to step up and speak to them directly. In a word confront the offenders early, instead of looking the other way as some are prone to do. When a competitor comes off a line and decides to debate an RO over a call, tell him to walk away, it's just a rifle match. Not life or death. This is a sport, and sportsmanship has to matter.

    I would not host a match if I thought they were bad, I only want to weed out the bad apples and I said that directly. I never said do away away with all the guys in Jerseys or Sponsored Shooters, and I am far from one to hold my tongue. If I meant all guys in Jerseys suck, I would have said that, but I get it, there are people angry that Frank is airing dirty laundry in public, so they mince words and spin my point.

    In 15+ years of doing this I have met a lot of shooters. Some like me, some don't, goes with the territory. I truly enjoy shooting a precision rifle and want this sport to succeed beyond anyone's wildest dream. So what I am asking is, if you see it, confront it. If they say it, call them out, don't just stand their and ignore these actions.

    The letter sent to me was sent anonymous, I could not call them out personally, and what is funny, still after all this, nobody stepped forward to claim responsibility, not even to say, they talked about it with the Author and they agreed with it. There is a clue there, and that is my point. As a match director we cannot address a problem as the competitor are driving out of the parking lot heading home. We can't be at every stage or watching every Range Officer, Competitor, and target get hit. We rely on the group to help manage the match on some level. This is what can prevent a Sunday Night / Monday Morning, Thursday Afternoon internet rant about a competition that sheds a negative light on the sport. We address it there and then, that person is gone, the incident is forgotten, everyone else drives on remembering the good time they had, and the new friends they met.

    I think shooting a match is the best bang for your buck experience out there in the precision rifle world. I really believe in what the local guys are doing now creating a series of events each month so the local competitors can participate without the stress and drama of the big matches. But big matches are fun too. Believe me, if you go in with open eyes and a clear goal of measuring your skills you will have a blast. But if the idea is to get a Jersey, slap a bunch of logos on it and raid the prize table, you are doing it wrong.

    The original post was not directed at the 800+ PRS shooters, it was directed at the author(s) of the letter. However the only way to reach those guys is to throw a grenade into the mix. Any group is gonna have it's bad apples, how you handle those apples define you more than loaning a new shooter a spare scope during a match. Matches are a small slice and it's easy to cherry pick the good points, by white washing the bad, you do a dis-service to all.

    This is a forum, the conversation does not end with my one post, not that one, not this one. We can discuss, refrain, adjust our position. We can do a point - counter -point in order to clarify statements, that is how we get things done. If the answer is you're just an asshole forget you, things splinter and break. We then choose sides, divide up teams and go off into our corners never solidifying the goal originally set forth. That has already happened and it had nothing to do with me. You can continue to ignore that fact, some of you took your ball and moved to the other side of the street or you can stand up and fix it together.

    I have never backed down from a debate, I will stand in front of any critic and let them have their word. If your will not strong enough to accept that fact, I fight hard, that is your hang up, not mine. For the people who got the message, and saw the passion, I appreciate it, for the others who disagree, I respect those who have addressed me directly. As for the handful of clowns, you might be part of the 5%, it's up to you prove me wrong.

    This was not meant to be personal, it was meant to bring attention to, 1, the letter, 2, a symptom of a problem I am hoping to erase, and to push the author(s) to claim responsibly.

    So hopefully this clarifies my point.

    Lowlight
     
    I used to play the ipsc game a little and seemed like everyone had to RO before they turned into a grandmaster, do they use a system like that or do the shooters who pay only pick up brass they shoot? Put a few of them in "butts pulling targets" and maybe they will get what it takes to run a event. Seems like every sport has a backbiter or two.
     
    Frank, please keep running the matches and prize tables in a way that doesn't cater to these types. The problem will resolve itself. Only the shooters that truly shoot for fun, competition, and/or to represent their sponsor(s) are the ones you will attract.

    As far as jersey'd shooters go, I've actually bought products based on how these shooters have helped me out at matches. Wiebad and Surgeon rifles come to mind. Likewise, I'm sure the companies that have these guys on payroll would love to know if one of their shooters was being an a-hole and driving away business. If they don't care and let the problem continue, they are only hurting themselves. But again, no need to call those sponsors out, shooters (the sponsors target market) will sort it out by taking their money elsewhere.
     
    I can understand where the author was coming from though.

    You've worked hard, spent tons of money just to get good enough to place 11th at a PRS event and you finally get a chance to get up to the prize table in 11th place......just to have the MD start calling RO's up. I can understand how that was a bit of a shock to someone. Was that told to the match shooters in advance?

    Of course it was Jacobs match to run the way he wanted, but the shooters generally dont expect that to happen. I have RO'ed many matches, Ive never expected a thing.

    The anonymous nature of the email is where it became bullshit. If you want to speak your mind, be a man and put your name on it.



    As a tangent topic, how was it decided which RO got to walk up first? There were 26 RO's right, Im sure RO 1 walked away with something a lot nicer than RO 26.

    I understand that this sport isnt supposed to be about prize table shit....I totally agree. Then do away with it entirely if its going to be that arbitrary.
     
    Very well said Frank!. I'm not and never will be a PRS series shooter. That being said, I shoot an occasional shoot or three a year, and try to RO at a shoot at least once annually. I look at gaming as bending/stretching the rules for a real or perceived advantage on a stage. Everyone SHOULD shoot the stage exactly the same way- but it's very difficult for match directors to write the stage descriptions / course of fire tightly enough for those few turds that think they have to cheat to get a few extra points and maintain their "status" or standings... Stage DQ's for not following intent of COF, and Match DQ's for being a dickhead-cheating-abusing RO's, will certainly go a long ways to policing the sport and making it better for all of us. Also, kind of like the sheriff's blotter in the local paper...getting the info out in a public forum to other Match directors regarding identity, violation, etc would STRONGLY add incentive for everything to be completely above board and keep folks on their best behavior.
     
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    I understand how a handful could have read the original message and take it personally, being passionate about the sport can bring out a lot of emotion. I read it as the title was written, "don't be THIS guy", pointing out the anonymous author. The PRS series was founded to bring some continuity to the sport, if you have 48 matches in 48 states each MD will run things their own way, so basic rules need to be put into place. Each shooter needs to consider themselves a steward of the sport, treat others with respect and call others out when they act out.

    As for prize tables, that's up to the MD. The MD's take the effort to fill the tables, companies do not call to offer to sponsor stages and donate dollars, it's almost 100% cold calls and emails from the MD's. This is the behind the scenes a lot of shooter don't understand, and it can be taken for granted. One thing that had been discussed in length is requiring a PRS series shooter to RO at least one match, that came up for a reason because a lot of shooters would not donate time to make a match happen. On the same topic, many PRS shooters are the very ones running matches in their own states, it's not a blanket statement to say PRS competitors refuse to donate time. If someone wants to contact a MD and give some unsolicited constructive input on ways to improve stages, or to bring up issues and solutions on how to improve them, I'm sure most MDs welcome that, but the letter in the original post went well beyond that.
     
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    Excellent conversation, Frank. I pray that there are some whom actually see it/comprehend it at the depth to which it was intended. Alas, simply due to the fact that it IS an issue, clouds that possibility.

    In the same sense that "not-so-smart" people don't know how "not-so-smart" they are.... the typical ass's are mostly thinking that everyone else is out to get them.

    For the comp's that I've attended (North of the Border) I was simply prideful overall that I was a "contender on the field" to begin with. I even handicapped myself in a few ways, just to see how things were done "years ago".

    It was my doing so, that showed me that there are so many other "competitors" whom literally attempt and intend to "buy" wins through equipment upgrades as opposed to simply learning what they have and how to run it, better.

    Much to that, right there.

    To add, when there are 47 prizes on the table, and 48 original paying contenders, and a soap-opera ensued:
    One entrant voluntarily withdrew because he broke is "super-duper-space-style-wonder-blaster'er" (and had to later have a machine-shop make a new part) AND all this happened before the match started. He wouldn't take anyone elses offering of a spare rifle (for reasons of his own) but did hang around those two days, just to be part of the "prize draw".

    He was perfectly happy to show everyone the 'prize' he won (bought) and made his circles around the groups. Talked (or tried) to everybody. About said prize.

    All except for that one guy, who was left out of the whole thing. Sure, I was sitting there watching it all unfold, but nothing was ever said to anyone, or by anyone, about that "one guy." (to be clear, that "one guy" who seemed singled out by being the only one to not receive a prize at all)

    I was then, and I am still now, just happy and proud to actually have been a contender, on the field. And was during the same competition a few years later, too. So Frank, are you suggesting that maybe a little more "humility" should be involved/included/REQUIRED at these events? Not only do I think so, but I'm thinking you do too.

    -And to be clear'er.... I don't mean more humility from those who're already humble. I am suggesting those who "aren't so humble" to begin carrying their weight in the game, too. Pointedly.
     
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    My first exposure to this sport was as an R.O. I was told while preparing for the match that, most of the shooters are "A-type" personalities. They were not lying. I admit that I am more of a "B- or C+" type personality. And learned very quickly within the first squad or two, that if given an inch some shooters will take a mile. Shooters that will stand behind the spotter and openly question every miss call for their buddy, or look for a way to game the stage to get an advantage. Was Parr for the course, and was not necessarily limited to shooters wearing jerseys. Some people are just bullies and should be treated as such. So I step up my R.O. game, and learned to be a hard-ass to everyone equally.

    As an R.O. and a shooter I have no problem with gaming a stage. But gaming an R.O. because the person is new to the job, or missed a detail while explaining the stage for the 25th time; for any kind advantage is disrespectful to the sport at a minimum. And when a Sponsored shooter makes an ass of himself over a prize table, or outright cheats , it is a stain on everyone involved in the sport. Just like when someone is involved in or whiteness a bad hunting experience, (ie. someone getting hurt) its difficult at best to bring those people back into the sport. So like it or not the sponsored shooters are appointed ambassadors to the sport, and must to be held to a higher standard to insure the future of what we are a part of.

    As for the prize table. If anyone has a problem with how the prizes are distributed, that person doesn't have to shoot a match put on by that MD ever again. But consider this, R.O.'s are a necessity to this sport, finding an incentive to bring in more/better R.O.'s should be a priority for everyone.
     
    I'm tempted to build a rifle, upfit it, snag a few cases of match ammo, and send it to the cup or something like it and just let anyone/everyone run it...

    Maybe an 'equal' rifle used by shooters of skill will help bring back the idea that this is still an individual sport but greatly aided by one another, or can be... A single stick used by all kinds of folks on a couple pooch stages ought to set aside the silly notion you have to spend $50K in gear to compete, and also quiet the idea of cash flowing one's competition or hobby via the prize table...

    Few would have the stones to do it, but it sure is fun to consider...

    We may not always agree Frank, but this has been evident and brewing for a while now, so thanks for tackling the subject.

    -Michael
     
    There is a lot to be said on the topics broached but I will be quick until I come back to this.

    ​​​​​​The "anonymous letter"....is it any different than a user here bitching? Do you know my name...a few might?

    Did the ro's shoot the match? How did they place? Did they pay a match fee or ro in lieu of the fee?

    I understand the point of sponsored shooters being an ambassador of their brand and the sport. However the ass hats are all over the place and just as many wear t shirts as jersey.....but we are all drawn to the jerseys thus noticing their behavior more often.

    Is it wrong to choose a match because it has a prize table? I will tell you this, given two equal matches one with prizes and one with out, I will choose the former. Why? Because we all like presents and gifts. Do you say no to a bonus at work after putting in tons of hours to complete a project?

    In regards to prize tables themselves, it might be nice to know how it will be operated ahead of time or have an sop. A standard had been informally created thus the departure caused issues. That should have been expected.

    There are many more points I would like to address but I must disconnect for now....it is Friday, there is ammo to load and beer to drink.
     
    One more thing....
    Gaming stages, this whole damn thing is a game. Each match director creates their own version and creates a set of parameters for the individual to operate in. When has it been wrong to think outside the box? Gaming a stage is playing the game.
     
    And here I was going to try and volunteer to RO some PRS matches this year ... like to see the guy come up and bitch me out - will not be pretty. What i have done in sporting clays for sponsored shooters who act like spoilt babies, is write down the sponsors on their shirts and write letters to their sponsors explaining their unprofessional behavior - i f they act unprofessional - i used to see the same guys at a future match with those patches removed. You get what you tolerate, anyone bitches out a RO - write down their sponsors and write them. Sponsors wont tolerate this shit and will dump them. It works.
     
    At the 2014 PRS finale, Accuracy International sponsored a side match where an AIAX in 7.62 with a Nightforce scope was fired by every competitor that wished to shoot it.
    Targets ranged from 300-600yds if I recall.
    All ammo was the same lot of 175g match.

    I zeroed the rifle prior to the match and gave the drop in MILS to each target, verified by actual fire. (both twisting the elevation knob and by using the reticle only)
    I also verified the zero and holds at the end of each day, no changes were needed.
    I also shot 10 runs (5 rounds each) back to back to get the barrel hot to simulate an entire squad firing to check for any poa/poi shift - none was observed.

    The fastest time to knock down all the targets (Larue self resetting) won the rifle!
    No charge for the side match, one run per competitor. They were allowed a few minutes to work the action, see the targets through the scope and set up their position.

    A few commented that the action, grip or recoil was slightly different than their match gun. (all possibly true and is was a 7.62 firing 175g bullets instead of a 6mm firing 105g)
    Most everyone liked shooting the stage and being able to shoot a rifle they may not have experienced in the past.

    ​​​​​​​The top times were shot by the top shooters - as usual...
     
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    My opinion: if you are at a shooting matches for "prizes" you are there for the wrong reason. Period. "Prizes" are for t-ball teams and soccer moms.
     
    First I'm neither a sponsored PRS shooter or an RO

    But

    Makes sense to me to give the ROs prizes, they didn't come knowing they would get something nice, and got rewarded for working the event instead of shooting it

    ​​​​​​Also makes sense to give the top finish shooter a first walk to the table

    After that number one... Why not Lottery the entire bunch of shooters and ROs for the rest of the table?..

    After seeing Litz post that the Berger Southwest national is handled via trophy for place and raffle for the prize table, I want to go myself

    You'll get far more new shooters coming to shoot...
    You'll give the guy who is trying his ass off with his $400 scope and $400 rifle a chance to get lucky and win an item that might change his entire shooting experience for rest of his life.

    You'll get more shooters willing to work as an RO and put up with the BS because after that day of working there is a chance they might win something that would be worth putting up with a few pricks

    I never expect to be a first place finish at a major match, or even a club Match, but if it was structured more like this... Then I'd sign up to shoot or be an RO at every match I could get to. And I'd bet you'll see the attendance numbers climb like crazy if this were the case.
     
    I worked in the firearms industry for 4 years as a retailer the biggest clowns were the sponsored shooters that would be the type to write this anonymous email. They tried to buy skill with the latest equipment, while trying to get that equipment for free only to sell it off at more then they paid for to someone wanting to get into the sport. While there is nothing wrong with horse trading equipment, I do it myself these people exhibit the mentality of a spoiled child that gets everything they want. The idea that your entitled to getting equipment at or below cost from a retailer because your the top shooter in a sport has worn thin on me. If anything I worked harder to get the best deal on products for the guy just starting who was excited about learning and just wanted to have fun. As a retailer I received more loyalty and referrals from the common man then I ever did from the sponsored shooters. The sponsored shooters were the first one to drop you in search of greener pastures. This not only pertains to PRS, but to SASS/CASS, IDPA, IPSC, 3-gun ect.

    As a shooter I see a lot of the same problems coming up in PRS that have plagued many other sports. A good look needs to be taken at how the other disciplines have fixed or made their problems worse. Care should be taken that in trying to appease everyone that it is degraded into nothing more then a participation sport; Cowboy action for example has a class or category for everyone to the point everyone gets a trophy its crap. Bringing in competitors with the allure of expensive prices does nothing other then cash in on the fad of the sport, it doesn't do enough to promote the sport to a broader base. Look at what has happened to IHMSA membership has declined do to the lack of appeal as the fad of big magnum handguns wore off.

    Prize tables should go away, the items should be raffled. Careful deliberation should be made on whether to separate pro and non-pro shooters into different categories. Range officers should be rewarded for their time. 10-20 years from now the sport may die off or wane as the market and manufactures chase another faddish sport to sell guns and equipment to. Fostering an all inclusive but competitive atmosphere is key, while putting measures in place that prevent the sport being turned into nothing more then sponsorship's that are used as marketing tools. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place trophies are all that should be given out and the sport should stand on its merit not on the grounds that you could get a chance at a $3500 scope. More should be done to introduce young shooters as well to build a base for the future to propagate the sport.

    I don't currently shoot any matches because of people gaming,cheating, the comments they make about RO's ect. I like knowing my position in a fair skill based competition and learning how to better my shooting, but it's simply not worth the headache of spending a day driving to the match shooting then spending a day driving back pissed off because some entitled jerk off cheated or "gamed" and won the match or bumped me down a position.

    I've shot a lot of stuff from Cowboy action to NRA Free pistol, your never going to get rid of the entitled shooters that ruin the sport especially if they are talented shooters but enforcing rules and having open discussions and actions in regulating and promoting sportsmanship can go a long way to keeping it fun and growing.

    Edit: Glad to be back on the Hide now that it's not scout.com anymore.
     
    I knew exactly the point you made to begin with Low Light, the whole Jersey wearer thing got blown out of proportion on FB. I don't shoot PRS matches, but I have ROed every single PRS match in TEXAS but one, what a MD does or doesn't do with the prize table is his business, I was shocked that after the first 10, us RO's got a pass on the table, I picked a pair of Vortex Viper HD 10x42 Bino's, Thank You Vortex Optics. The person who sent the annoymous email(spineless fuck tard), you can have the Bino's, just come forward, own it, be a man, don't hide ConerenedShooter, or STFU, and except it. I used my earned Vacation Time, to help my friends the Bynum's, I also used my earned Vacation Time to help other friends at the Finale at FTW, that's 72 hours of my vacation, plus my gas, my food, alcohol, and time away from my family to help people whom I can count on if I need them. So come forward, identify yourself, own it, those Bino's are yours, a XLR Stock from another RO is yours, hell thats 2 more prizes you would have gotten, spineless fucktard I await your response.

    Sincerly
    Brian aka Brian427Cobra\427Cobra
     
    ...And I'm still waiting for a reply to my sponsorship request from Weyland Corp...

    If you're reading this C. B., relax; I already got the Tee.

    Greg
     
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    Years ago, I was attending a local IPSC match in Florida, I didn't meet anyone that acted like an asshole and I had a great time. I do remember one stage where one of the shooters was seriously gaming it, to the point of leaning out, around a barricade in an unstable position.
    I mentioned that what he was doing was not in the spirit of the match, he basically said, it wasn't about the spirit, it was about winning.

    You see it everywhere, but the shooting sports seem to draw them like flies, whether it is skeet, trap, pistol or rifle.
    It does, seriously, turn off the novice or newbie, and if they stick around, they invariably adopt the same attitude.
     
    I started shooting as a hobby 5 years ago when I retired. Pissed away money on gear before deciding I like to shoot Ftr and long range prone. Age has a way of evolving your perspective to examine the heritage, altruism, and other esoteric aspects of everything. If I was younger and more fit I would love to get into PRS but to me the multiple bags, tripods, etc is a turnoff as they seem to be an affront to the sniper heritage from which it evolved. I respect the ability of those who can dope the wind at long range and make rapid fire hits, but damn all those fat bags and tripods look funny and out of place.
     
    CharlieNC, If you attend a PRS match and watch the top shooters you'll see that they use the least amount of equipment. Brian Allen, who is I believe 53 years old and has won a few PRS matches this year, uses a very small bag for the front of his rifle (small as in the size of a taco) for the vast major of stages. I've shot many matches with him and can't ever remember seeing him using a tripod or more than one bag. Usually, the "gear race" folks are in the middle of the pack. Not always but usually.
     
    CharlieNC, If you attend a PRS match and watch the top shooters you'll see that they use the least amount of equipment. Brian Allen, who is I believe 53 years old and has won a few PRS matches this year, uses a very small bag for the front of his rifle (small as in the size of a taco) for the vast major of stages. I've shot many matches with him and can't ever remember seeing him using a tripod or more than one bag. Usually, the "gear race" folks are in the middle of the pack. Not always but usually.

    Good to hear that Brian. I will try to do some positional practice and enter a local PRS match later this year, strictly for fun. Saving the serious practice for ftr where its easier to just lay in one spot.
     
    Just some thoughts. We all seem to agree the materialism surrounding the prize table is bad, right? We should be shooting for fun, making new friends, having a good time...prize table is icing on a delicious cake, it's not the cake. So eliminate it as a source of motivation for douchebaggery. Every person who signs up has a shooter number. Every prize that comes in gets put on an index card with a number. Day before the match, mix up the index cards, randomly drop each one in the little grab bags or paperclip the prize number to everybody's match T shirt. Tropy the top 3, 5, 10, whatever...then start calling prize numbers up. Nobody knows what they're getting till the awards ceremony and it's all been determined ahead of time. It's totally random and the new guy at his first match has an equal chance of walking away with a coozie or a brand new Nightforce.

    One of the most amazing experiences I've had in my life was winning a rifle at the SHC in 2014. Had nothing to do with how I shot, it was a random drawing. I'll never sell that because it's the only thing I've ever won in a random drawing like that, and it was awesome. If I should ever win another rifle, it's going back into the drawing pool or it's getting handed to the guy in last place. I don't need to win any more rifles. I won't deny it was a stunning experience, but I'd like others to experience it too. I say try to maximize that "random awesomeness" experience. Randomize the whole damn table. If guys are there to shoot they'll keep showing up. If they're in a points race like the PRS they'll show up for the points. If we get a couple butt hurt whiners dropping out, so be it. We will all be better off.

    Just a note on the National Rifle League. I just attended one of their matches and it was a blast. This is not to say PRS matches aren't a blast. My point is, rather than say they should all come under the same banner...why not treat it like the AFC and NFC in the NFL? Maybe hold a Precision Rifle Super Bowl with the top 25 or top 50 from both leagues. Unity is a good thing but there's always going to be a difference of opinion. If we see groups splitting off lets come up with a creative way to bring them together at the end of the season. Maybe do some kind of random 'pro bowl' thing where each group picks a team of shooters from the top ten finishers of each match and do some kind of big pro bowl team match. I think that's a better way to address different schools of thought on the same concept. Just my opinion, for whatever that's worth.

    I like Franks idea of set in stone versus gameable stages. Maybe start classifying them that way. If it's a stone stage you have to do it exactly as it's written. If it's not a stone stage and you can come up with a way to do it better without breaking the rules as written, have at it.
     
    I started shooting as a hobby 5 years ago when I retired. Pissed away money on gear before deciding I like to shoot Ftr and long range prone. Age has a way of evolving your perspective to examine the heritage, altruism, and other esoteric aspects of everything. If I was younger and more fit I would love to get into PRS but to me the multiple bags, tripods, etc is a turnoff as they seem to be an affront to the sniper heritage from which it evolved. I respect the ability of those who can dope the wind at long range and make rapid fire hits, but damn all those fat bags and tripods look funny and out of place.

    we've done no bag/1 bag matches and stages before in local matches because guys complain about the bags some people use...the same guys who win with the bags, win without them
     
    we've done no bag/1 bag matches and stages before in local matches because guys complain about the bags some people use...the same guys who win with the bags, win without them

    How about a match where only guys who have never won a match can use a bag on certian stages.
     
    How about a match where only guys who have never won a match can use a bag on certian stages.

    so you punish guys for being good?

    not in any match i have a part in putting on

    im not a fan in any way of the level the field/let everyone have a chance to win type of rules...if people want to win, they can get there just like everyone else...learn to shoot and earn it
     
    I mentioned that what he was doing was not in the spirit of the match, he basically said, it wasn't about the spirit, it was about winning.

    To be fair... there has always been a focus in IPSC/USPSA that the course of fire should restrict the shooter from doing things the stage designer doesn't want them to do - not the rules. When you start trying to run things by "spirit" or "intent", the rules tend to get very stilted, fungible, and unfair. The "spirit" of IPSC and USPSA - by their own rulebooks - is "freestyle". It's actually the greatest part of the game. You're left to your own creativity for how to solve the problem, not "paint by numbers". Lazy stage designers and match directors bitch about that a lot, but that's their problem. The best stages are the ones that give you multiple viable options and enough rope to hang yourself - you better have your shit wired tight if you want to win. If you feel the need to have an authoritarian rulebook at a handgun match, whereby you must "paint by numbers", then IDPA is your game, not IPSC/USPSA. Of course, the same guys win the big matches for both games, so... go figure.

    That also in no way shape or form means that I think that any other shooting game should be tied to that "freestyle" mentality. Just a point of info....

     
    we've done no bag/1 bag matches and stages before in local matches because guys complain about the bags some people use...the same guys who win with the bags, win without them

    That's always the way of things. Change the rules if you want, but the best shooter is always going to win. Or you'll change the rules enough that the best shooters don't show up anymore (cause you're penalizing them for having done the work required to be good... they're off patronizing someone else's match, now), and now you have a bunch of "big fish in a very small pond" types that win the match...

     
    In my opinion part of the problem is the Jersey, it's not the cause, it's just a symptom of the illness. There are lot of guys who wear Jerseys and the Companies have no idea their stuff is being advertised. In other words, they are not true sponsored shooters and just appear to be sponsored. Everything on that shirt they paid for out of their pocket and in a small way may feel the need to earn a little or even a lot of that money back. They hope to get noticed, so they buy a shirt, slap some logos on it and they are off to the matches

    Just browsing this section because I'm looking it shooting PRS next yr. I seem to recall reading the letter to which LL is referring quite some time ago, and I know this post is old so maybe this no longer relevant.

    With regard to the logos on jerseys, I can tell you what happens in the world of racing bicycles. If you show up with a logo on your kit, and you are not under contract as being sponsored by that company you get DQd. Manufacturers know this, they sell shorts with black logos on them. I've seen guys taking black laundry sharpies to their shorts to black out a Pearl Izumi "PI" logo before a race. Not sure you want to go there, but it's how at least one sport handles posers.