Liberal spotted! Wah wah, something didn't go my way, let me sue them!
Rifle Scopes Top Three Top Tier Scopes
- Thread starter cjs88
- Start date
Didn't go my way? I didn't tell them to have a warranty. If they extend that as a part of selling the product, they need to come through with their end of the bargain if the product doesn't continue to function as advertised for the duration of the warranty period. With a $1000 scope, it would sting, but if they didn't fix it, I'd throw it in the trash and buy another one from a competitor. I don't think anyone would enjoy having to do that, but part of the cost of doing international business is that smaller losses aren't recoverable. There's probably not any realistic way I'd be able to force them to come through with their promises, and that's just part of the risk of owning that product.
$4000 is a lot of money to me, over a month's income. The idea, however remote, that I'd have to just deal with that kind of loss without any hope of changing their minds is not worth it to me, especially in a world where there are American companies, owned and staffed by Americans, who understand American values and preferences, who will take my phone call and fix the product.
I once owned a pistol sourced from an American company that had the firing pin hole drilled crooked in the slide. I had thought the off center primer strikes were simply from the barrel being fitted a bit high or low in the locking lugs and I ignored it. One day I removed the firing pin to clean it and discovered it was bent and would only go back in one way.
I sent the gun back to the company and it came back with a new slide. The problem was that the barrel fit so poorly that the gun would no longer feed any ammunition reliably. There also was a considerable gap between the slide and barrel because the ejection port didn't quite fit in the slide.
When I called the 'smith who'd fixed the gun, he made a bunch of excuses and told me the gun was perfectly safe. When I explained that it'd no longer feed even round nose bullets, he blew me off and told me it was impossible.
A chat with his supervisor changed everything, I returned the gun again, and it came back to me with a barrel that fit and fed as it was supposed to. Have you ever experienced something like this? Imagine what was going through my head when someone treated me as if it was my fault that their slide had the hole milled crooked.
If I'm a crybaby for expecting a company to honor their warranty, then I don't even know what that makes you, other than unable to have an adult conversation about adult topics without hurling insults.
Yeah, we get it. We're all in the same boat & understand what you're getting at. I think the comments are more to do with the reality of your expectations of suing a company over a warranty disagreement. Although it is certainly possible, it certainly isn't a realistic proposition. To begin with, it would cost you way more than the value of even the most expensive scope to undertake the suit & it would probably drag out for some years.
Any lawyer worth his salt would advise you against it knowing full well that you wouldn't see it through to the end.
There's way more involved in suing than most people realize.
I forgot about this thread
Had to look in your history. For a second I’m thinking,
Did I swipe right on someone?
Who did I just send that pic to?
Does it look bigger in the pic than I think??
Schimdt and Bender glass is trash
Or more accurately. Nightforce is more better. And ZCO is more more better. and benders fail. All the time @Perceptiv @Huskydriver @Bender @hafejd30 let’s quit shititing up the tech threads
www.snipershide.com Exactly. Read the room. Everyone who replied took your comment as a joke. I followed with a joke and you went on a rant. Your example can go both ways. American companies can and can’t be a hassle to work with. Same with international. 99% of the time when o supervisor gets involved something happens.
The good old daysI forgot about this thread
Had to look in your history. For a second I’m thinking,
Did I swipe right on someone?
Who did I just send that pic to?
Does it look bigger in the pic than I think??
Schimdt and Bender glass is trash
Or more accurately. Nightforce is more better. And ZCO is more more better. and benders fail. All the time @Perceptiv @Huskydriver @Bender @hafejd30 let’s quit shititing up the tech threads
A few comments.
On suing manufacturers: if $4000 is a lot of money, you do not want to know how much a lawyer will charge you.
On top end scopes where money is no object: TT, ZCO, S&B, March depending on the specific applications. US Optics is kind of a new company now. I like what I am seeing from them and I like that they are made in the US, but I will give them a little more time before I figure out which exact category the FDN scopes properly fit. I do like the FDN-17x I have. Steiner M7Xi is a good scope and if add EO integration, then Steiner M7Xi with IFS might climb to the top of the heap.
Leupold Mark 5 and Nightforce ATACR are really excellent scopes, but they are a step down from the four I mention above. Obviously, if the conversation was "best for the money", the answers would be different.
Note 1: there is a new Zeiss scope that I have not seen yet.
Note 2: I have not done a full review of the new March 4.5-28x52 because I have not tested a full production scope yet. I will shortly.
If I were starting from scratch with unlimited budget and was selecting scopes for different applications:
Long range/PRS-type gun size and weight be damned: Tangent 5-25x56
Same use as above, but want to go a little smaller and lighter: ZCO 4-20x50
Crossover rifle where weight is really a big deal: Tangent TT315M 3-15x50
Long range use/want a ton of magnification/shoot paper quite a lot: March 5-42x56
Gas gun where I plan to put stuff in front of the scope: S&B 5-20x50 Ultra Short
March 5-42x56 would also probably be my choice for precision/rimfire use since it has excellent close focus and for this extra magnification is helpful. If you are trying to avoid buying a spotter, March should also be on your list.
To address a few other questions that came up above. Both 4-20x50 and 5-27x56 ZCO scopes are excellent, but 5-27x56 faces stronger competition. There are fewer truly high end 50mm scopes that top out at 20x or so, but their number is growing. With 5-25x or similar, there is no shortage of really nice designs.
General disclaimer: I have tested all of the scope mentioned above (except for the one I specifically said I have not tested) and have most of them within arm's reach of me as I type this.
ILya
On suing manufacturers: if $4000 is a lot of money, you do not want to know how much a lawyer will charge you.
On top end scopes where money is no object: TT, ZCO, S&B, March depending on the specific applications. US Optics is kind of a new company now. I like what I am seeing from them and I like that they are made in the US, but I will give them a little more time before I figure out which exact category the FDN scopes properly fit. I do like the FDN-17x I have. Steiner M7Xi is a good scope and if add EO integration, then Steiner M7Xi with IFS might climb to the top of the heap.
Leupold Mark 5 and Nightforce ATACR are really excellent scopes, but they are a step down from the four I mention above. Obviously, if the conversation was "best for the money", the answers would be different.
Note 1: there is a new Zeiss scope that I have not seen yet.
Note 2: I have not done a full review of the new March 4.5-28x52 because I have not tested a full production scope yet. I will shortly.
If I were starting from scratch with unlimited budget and was selecting scopes for different applications:
Long range/PRS-type gun size and weight be damned: Tangent 5-25x56
Same use as above, but want to go a little smaller and lighter: ZCO 4-20x50
Crossover rifle where weight is really a big deal: Tangent TT315M 3-15x50
Long range use/want a ton of magnification/shoot paper quite a lot: March 5-42x56
Gas gun where I plan to put stuff in front of the scope: S&B 5-20x50 Ultra Short
March 5-42x56 would also probably be my choice for precision/rimfire use since it has excellent close focus and for this extra magnification is helpful. If you are trying to avoid buying a spotter, March should also be on your list.
To address a few other questions that came up above. Both 4-20x50 and 5-27x56 ZCO scopes are excellent, but 5-27x56 faces stronger competition. There are fewer truly high end 50mm scopes that top out at 20x or so, but their number is growing. With 5-25x or similar, there is no shortage of really nice designs.
General disclaimer: I have tested all of the scope mentioned above (except for the one I specifically said I have not tested) and have most of them within arm's reach of me as I type this.
ILya
As embarrassing as it is to admit, I really want a Countersniper. How could a piece of shit be that much of a piece of shit, it is sadly fascinating.
You do realize that there is not medical term for this condition? I could refer you to a good physhiatrist, but there is no pill to cure this...
ILya
Just mount it on a Serbu,
Could be the first time a Counter Sniper outlives a rifle….and maybe it’s owner
Honestly, I was angry enough that they screwed up my pistol that I absolutely would have taken them to court to honor their warranty. And I have NO shame about the fact that it would have cost me more time in lost income than it would cost for me to send it off to my choice of gunsmiths and wait in line for new barrel. The difference was that I got someone on the line, an American, who understood that we value our things and that we expect nothing other than that they honor their obligations. I don't know how other cultures feel about this and life is too short for me to plunk down a month's income to find out. If there weren't any US companies offering scopes, it'd be different, but there are, so to me, it's an unreasonable risk.
I am a lawyer and I've tried over 100 cases to verdict so I'm not too worried about a petty contract dispute over a thousand dollars. None of that "this is too complicated for me to do it" crap would sway me. Go to court sometime. There are plenty of people wronged by other people who are just assholes and don't think anyone would call them on it. Judges see right through that crap.
Well if you're a Lawyer & don't have to pay fees, I suppose you might consider that route. I suspect though that it could become an exercise in futility simply because of the nature of the product. Depending on the issue the scope may have, it would be very difficult to gain a 3rd party assessment due to product specialization. If the problem was an optical issue, they could run you around almost indefinitely & there would be little you could do to offset the technical disparity in order to prove otherwise.
I think you'd be better off to pretend it was out of the warranty period & cut your losses but, that's just me.
Where would you put the S&B PM II 3-27 high power? I got it for what I intend to use as my long range target rifle.
Accepting everything you say as true, that seems like an argument to simply forego these expensive products entirely or focus on brands that have unblemished reputations for making good on any defect that may make it out the door.
Nightforce.
Leupold.
Both are good from my very limited experience. Sounds like some of the others mentioned here are quite a bit nicer. I would like to try zco someday.
Leupold.
Both are good from my very limited experience. Sounds like some of the others mentioned here are quite a bit nicer. I would like to try zco someday.
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It is a nice scope. I do not like how it renders contrast especially well and depth of field was shallower than I would have liked, but I have not spent that much time with it. It does have a lot of adjustment range, but I tend to prefer the 5-25x56 overall.
ILya
Well, we should be careful not to allow bleed over into other areas. Warranty issues are not directly linked to design or build quality of a product. The two are not mutually inclusive or exclusive. From most accounts I've read, the top tier scope manufacturers have less need of warranty considerations than most other manufacturers &, again, by most accounts, seem to live up to expectations regarding warranty coverage.
Buying any product carries a certain risk, as does getting out of bed every morning.
I just buy what I want & worry about the warranty claims if they come along.
If money is no option than TT hands down. TT is pretty much the king if we are talking (money is no option) and not the value differences between it and zero compromise and what is a better deal.
Most of the ELR champs and top shooters are shooting 5-25 scopes with obviously some using the 35 power atacr, but they do not shoot on 35.
At the end of the day the TT will be the finer scope and you won’t need such a big magnification range like that. TT has the best turrets on the market, I’ve tested 33 TT’s on scope tracking devices and every single one has tracked 100%, I have not seen any other scope do that. It has the best performance in mirage out of any scope and that is HUGE in ELR, and I own a Hensoldt and a Zero Comp.
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That's not an unreasonable approach either. At $1000-1500, I'd even consider buying a second one and waiting for the first to come back. At $4k, that isn't within my means, so I get a LOT pickier at that price point.
The last scope I purchased was a Vortex Struck Eagle. The warranty had a large part to play in my decision although not for the usual reasons. Before buying that scope, I had trashed 3 scopes in 6 months &, Vortex's "no fault" warranty weighed heavily on my decision. At the time, I was all set up for a S&B 4-16x56 UB & although the finances were set to go, in the end, I just couldn't bring myself to drop $5K into a scope that could finish up as scrap metal. Truth be told, although I'm confident that the optics in the S&B are far superior in relative terms, my Struck Eagle does everything I need it to do & does it pretty darn well. I can read a car registration plate clear as a bell at 350 meters & I've shot crows at 520 meters which were clear as day. Oddly enough, the scope is built so robustly that, the original reason I bought it will probably never be an issue. I've already dropped the bastard off the back of a truck onto a hard dirt track & it barely scratched it. (scope hit 1st). I'm still very much considering that S&B but, it gives me the willies every time & think about damaging the thing & flushing 5 grand down the shitter.
So in that context, warranty matters a lot to me.
I would like to put Steiner's new M7Xi 2.9-20x50 up against S&Bs ultra short and see how they compare.
I would like your opinion on the Minox Pro 5-25x56 if you can get your hands on one.
I have not gotten any response from Minox people for close to a year, so it is not looking likely at the moment.
ILya
An error in judgement on Minox behalf in my opinion. You always do a considered & balanced review & take into consideration the important factors pertaining to the individual optics.
Hopefully a generous owner will loan you that model in the near future.
I appreciate it, thank you.
It is not necessarily an error. There could have been a change of personnel or any other number of benign reasons.
If I have a project where it fits, I'll make an effort to get my hands on one.
ILya
"Warrantied" is misspelled on the box. This must mean they spent so much money on R&D that they didn't have anything left for a proofreader.I’ve held out long enough on the secrets to long range success, let’s go straight to the top….
Military overrun (yet to be determined), dual reticles (engage 2 targets at once), humongous turrets (do they work?? Who fucking cares look how tactical they are!!!!) illuminated reticle (red/blue/green) and picatinny rails galore (for the urban snipers, lights/lasers/holographic sights)
And the box!!! It’s so shiny
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Really intrigued by this.
Out of curiosity, what would be your unlimited budget LPVO on a gas gun?
