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sirhrmechanic

Command Sgt. Major
Full Member
Minuteman
Just somehow managed to get hooked on the pilot of this... on AMC. From the AMC web site:

Based on Alexander Rose’s book Washington’s Spies, AMC’s TURN tells the untold story of America’s first spy ring. A historical thriller set during the Revolutionary War, TURN centers on Abe Woodhull (Jamie Bell), a farmer living in British-occupied Long Island who bands together with his childhood friends to form the Culper Ring -- an unlikely team of secret agents who not only went on to help George Washington turn the tide of the war but also gave birth to modern spycraft.

So far, it has my attention! Looks like it will be an interesting series.

Anyone else watching?

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Watched the first 3 episodes. This show is LEGIT. Between this and Hell on Wheels, AMC has me hooked.
 
For whatever reason, I just can't get into this show. I love Hell on Wheels (my fav show) and like The Walking Dead's production value (plot is fucking boring though) and pretty much everything else AMC does but this show just hasn't set the hook for me and I can't put my finger on why not. I want to like it because all I have to watch right now is Vikings (which is awesome!).
 
I haven't had a chance to watch any of the subsequent episodes, but I am a huge fan of Revolutionary War history... having grown up in the same woods haunted by Robert Rogers, Burgoyne, Gates, Arnold and all the other names from the Northern front of the Revolutionary war and the French-Indian wars. It all happened, quite literally, in my back yard. So love that era...

So I have to watch the next episodes to know if it will be great or disappointing. At very least, I was not aware of Rose's Washington's Spies and will add that to my pile of post-masters-thesis reading. 5 weeks... 5. weeks... 5 weeks.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Vikings is awsome,try Lilyhammer on netflix you might like it.Just seen the commercials on the tube tonight for turn, will watch it on their website.

For whatever reason, I just can't get into this show. I love Hell on Wheels (my fav show) and like The Walking Dead's production value (plot is fucking boring though) and pretty much everything else AMC does but this show just hasn't set the hook for me and I can't put my finger on why not. I want to like it because all I have to watch right now is Vikings (which is awesome!).
 
Turn and Vikings, both are must-see's in our household. Celia and I spent yesterday with the Vikings Season I Marathon.

Greg
 
While Turn has the potential of quite a lot, it would be nice if they would give it 'just a little bit more' to get it going. I realize they are building the back-story and all that,,, but it needs a kick in the ass to get started good.

Just my opinion.....
 
I have gotten into Turn. I await Roger's return this episode. Plus, I take delight in Capt. Simcoe's misfortunes.
 
What I am finding interesting is the portrayal of Rogers. We all know him as the greatest hero of the Infantry.... Rogers rules of Ranging and all that. But his role in the Revolutionary war (and his loyalties... and his problems with debt, etc.) are not as well known. In his famous Northwest Passage, Kenneth Roberts hinted as to Roberts latter days in debtors prison in England. But didn't bring up his contributions to the British/Loyalist cause.

There is a book coming out soon on Rogers by a guy named Grenier. I suspect it will be a lot more complex than one might first think and that there will be a lot of people at Ft. Benning who will be surprised at the Rogers of the Revolutionary War. And maybe not pleased.

One of the things that is interesting about Turn is how it shows the complexity of life in Colonial/revolutionary North America where the population was genuinely split between loyalty to the Crown, Rebellion, and (frankly) apathy. Sentiment for rebellion, especially in the South, was not as widespread as it was, for example, in New England. Which is why Burgoyne's strategy of cutting off New England, had it worked, was a very viable plan. And a lot of people (much as with politics today) were either apathetic or were waiting to see which way the wind blew. The idea that there was universal support among colonists for rebellion is, frankly, Disneyesque.

For another excellent read on the Revolutionary War (this time from the British perspective)... Matthew Spring's "With Zeal and Bayonets Only" is a superb book. Not a hard read and gives a lot of British and Loyalist perspective and delves into the details of the British soldier.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
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Great show. Don't think of it as a documentary- for instance the portrayal of general Scott is all wrong but if you think of it as a story allowing you to immerse yourself in those times it is great entertainment with some educational value if it gets you researching the real events which are no less intriguing even if they don't fit as well into a series show production. I think the general attitudes and the cat and mouse game between loyalists and patriots is spot on even if the characterizations of actual people are not. It helps you get a feel for the difficult choices and dangerous situations people faced and brings them home in the way a show or movie can over a book.

Overall I really like it, though if I were a direct descendant of a General Scott I'd be annoyed. Perhaps the lesson for producers is if the story requires something different from a character than the true person, then it would be better to simply make up a character whole cloth rather than mischaracterize a real person. I think we owe their memory and descendants that respect. Otherwise, I am all for everyone learning about the amazing people and events of the Revolution and founding, and this show can help lead to that.

I also like Hell on Wheels, though the latest plot device with the Mormon girl is a mistake in my opinion, it seems wierd and not in keeping with the character and flow of the show.

Sihr I'll check out that book. One of my favorites is " William Diamond's Drum" - it helps you gain an understanding of how the concept of natural rights embraced by clergy and other learned men formed the conditions for revolution and some intimate background on the people and events of the battles of Lexington and Concord- it's a must read!
 
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KY... er KYPatriot. Your handle doesn't lend itself to truncation...

Great analysis. Though the book really is superb. I got hooked on Rose when I read his "The American Rifle: A Biography." It is a fantastic book that everyone on the 'Hide would actually enjoy. I actually didn't agree with all of his assertions... and I think he let a bit of myth slip in. But it's a fantastic book.

Larry Kahaner's book "AK47: Weapon that changed the World" (or similar title... not sure I got it exact) is similarly a fantastic read and in that same genre. Tracing history through a weapon evolution.

There are some really good history books built around weapons. Rose, I think, did a brilliant job with The American Rifle. He is the type of historian that makes dull academic types jealous, too. Academic historians seem to hate best-seller writers... and complain that their books are all "Readable" and "popular" as though that's bad. ;-)

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
So where do Robert Rogers` loyalties lie sirhr? On wiki it basically leaves you with the conclusion that he was a full-on redcoat for the most part...
 
Coyote:

Your guess is as good as mine! I think he probably did end up siding with the British, but one gets the impression that he started to go down the road of siding with the Revolutionaries, but was not treated well or given the commands he thought he deserved. This wasn't uncommon and alienated a number of officers who could have contributed to the Revolution... and if you a read Man in the Mirror and some other books about Benedict Arnold, you see that he ended up betraying the Revolution only after taking massive abuse from other generals and because of Revolutionary War politics. So Rogers may well have started out sympathizing with the Revolution and ended up a Loyalist? Only he knew.

I know there is a book coming out from a former AF officer/historian named Grenier. He'es going at Rogers, this time. Unfortunately, as a historian, Grenier is a complete hack. His schtick is that he thinks American Soldiers are basically a bunch of bushwacking killers and have been since Colonial Times. His book, The American Way of War, got lots of happy nods and "how true's" from leftist, Chardonnay-drinking academic turd-burglars who decry any kind of warfare. His other book, The Far Reaches of Empire, on Colonial actions in Nova Scotia, is little better. He seems to sell books to the anti-war set by accusing all American soldiers since the Minutemen of being baby-killers and Indian-exterminators ever since the first Pilgrim handed out a Smallpox blanket as a Thanksgiving gift. So I expect that his book on Rogers is going to be a travesty... and we'll learn little except that Rogers killed a lot of Indians. Which is bad. That's what we'll get when an AF officer takes on the infantry's greatest hero ;-)

Contrast what Grenier will probably do with Rogers... with Kenneth Roberts portrayal of Rogers in Northwest Passage and you get a totally different look at Rogers. But though Roberts was a bit of an historian, he was also a fiction writer. He mythologized many Americans from the Revolutionary period. But he also shows Rogers post French-Indian Wars exploits to find the Northwest Passage (and his business 'career') and shows how Rogers ended up in Debtors Prisons in England. But Kenneth Roberts doesn't take Rogers all the way to the Revolution... Again, who knows what Roberts thought.

Ultimately, I will say that... unless I can invent time travel I can't say where his loyalties are. I can't ask him. But it was a very complex time. The population was not all in favor of a Revolution. Remember, that Americans were not... Americans. They were Englishmen living in the colonies. Revolution meant forsaking their British heritage (I won't say citizenship because they were subjects...) but many people LOVED being subjects of their revered monarch. So Rogers may have felt that his lifetime of fighting for the king meant that he wanted to continue to fight for England. Or maybe he just liked to fight and didn't care which side he fought for? Some folks live for the fight.

I can say that historical interpretations of people like Rogers are fraught with peril. But you can sell a lot of books by coming up with controversial conclusions about highly-recognizable historical figures. That's how boneheads like Jon Tetsuro Sumida (who, in short, argued Alfred Thayer Mahan was a pacifist and Clausewitz was a hippie peacenick) and Grenier get book deals and appearances on MSNBC. They write books trashing the Navy and the infantry's greatest heroes to a grateful left who are happy to see such warmongers destroyed by "learned" historians who will write anything to sell a few books and get tenure.

Pardon my rant... which really is only relevant to the historical community... but I have little use for ivory tower academics who want to sell books by taking stupid and, usually unsupportable positions on historical figures... even if they get lots of kudos from the chardonnay and "war is bad" set.

IMHO, sometimes we simply have to say "I don't know."

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Can't say I've found either the dialogue or the storyline very compelling (GW even has all his own teeth, fer krissakes), but since the series has been focusing mostly on civilian spies, I've kept watching to see if history finally will give George Washington his due as our country's first spymaster, and quite a good one, especially considering his lack of schooling. With all the "fables" in the public lore, the chopping down of the cherry tree and crossing the frozen Delaware and all the rest, it's always felt ironic to me that they should leave out that the man was a master of deceit and subterfuge.

So I was happy to see Washington directly involved with the report of the Hessians quartering in Trenton, and personally pursuing the identity of the reporter. But when Nathaniel Sackett showed up, I was bowled over. Sacket was a very obscure and enigmatic man. The REAL Sackett was presented to Washington as “a Person of Intrigue, and Secrecy”, and he obviously was a trained and experienced professional, but how he came by his craft is lost to history. But he's a detail that so few would take notice of, it makes you wonder why the hell they bothered. Like Stallone's 1911 loaded with Glaser safety slugs in "Cobra," or all the arcane references to the poetry of T.S. Eliot in "Apocalypse Now." There couldn't be one movie viewer in a thousand who'd have "got it."


But I had a facepalm moment when Woodhull's Irish brogue kept tripping over "Culpeper" and bastardized it into "Culper," because the Culper ring was a successful rebel spy ring run out of NYC. It was like a serendipity moment left over from the screenplay for "Forrest Gump." Entirely too cutesy.
 
Great show, AMC has done it once again IMO. Some of the historical facts/inaccuracies aside, the only thing I think they missed the mark on is the Theme music in the beginning, it just doesn't "fit" like the theme music for other AMC shows does.

There is a TURN marathon on tomorrow in the afternoon, all day that leads up to the new episode, I may watch them all again just to stay on top of it. Thats the one great thing about Netflix, you can have your own marathon and watch episodes one after another so the story keeps its momentum.
 
I came in on the 4th or 5th episode and was lost, but I did enjoy it.

Then last weekend I setup the DVR and watched everything. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
 
Though Im sure he was a very complex person, as all people are, I really like how they did Caleb Brewster. Seems like the type that would get along real well here in the backwoods of the South today. Same could be said for Rogers. I only wish that they would have made a part in there somewhere for Daniel Morgan, Tim Murphy, and the rest of Morgan`s Riflemen - Snipershide and the rest of the Sniper Community`s forefathers if you will. I love reading about those guys. Rough as they come, the worst enemy/best friend you could possibly have in the Revolutionary days from my reading.


You seem damn-educated on the subject sirhr, do you know if Rogers and Morgan ever faced off against each other during this period? Or did they otherwise know each other? Any recommended reading for Daniel Morgan?

Also, were Rogers` Rangers known for using rifles or smoothbores? And were there any former notable Rangers on the American side?


Either way, 250 year old technology aside, Id hate to know I was in the woods while either one of them was on my trail.
 
Sir Coyote!

Thanks for the PM. Sorry about not responding to this earlier. I meant to, but have been wrapped around the axle teaching a class and getting ready for the last phase of my Masters in Military History (graduation in 10 days...)

Not massively educated in this period. My area of interest is Edwardian. But read a lot about this period and know Rogers mostly from myth and legend. A lot of the material on him is equivocal... and it was Kenneth Roberts who created the personae we mostly know these days. And Spencer Tracy!

From what I understand, some Rangers used rifles but most used fowlers or smoothbore muskets. But most of them were drawn from rural folks in New England during the French Indian Wars and were woodsmen, trappers and otherwise schooled in the arts of frontier "Ranging." In Northwest Passage, Kenneth Roberts describes the Rangers as using their rifles to shoot tossed pinecones for practice (not easy in Flintlock Days...) but this is the writing of an historical fiction writer. So is it real or Memorex???? Great question. I don't have a definitive answer. My suspicion is that a few of the Rangers used rifles, but rifles in military use were in a pretty nascent stage during the French Indian Wars (Seven Years War). I suspect that most of the Rangers used personally-owned muskets but were likely proficient in their use compared to many in the era. There is supposed to be a letter/diary entry by a Private Goodnough (SP?) that references the Rangers using rifles, but there is also some argument as to the validity of his arguments. So my suspicion is that some Rangers had rifles, but most had quality muskets/fowlers/smoothbores and simply new how to load and shoot them. Again, this is a total conjecture on my part. There is likely some primary source material that is more definitive, but I haven't looked at it.

As for whether Morgan and Rogers ever met or faced off against each other.... that would have been quite a meeting. For fun, I did some digging to see if they could have crossed paths. But it looks pretty unlikely. Almost certainly, they never faced off in battle. I thought, perhaps, it could be more likely that they met on more friendly terms, but can't see anything to indicate this may have happened. They were just in different places at different times, according to the chronology of events between the French Indian Wars and the Revolugion. Again, that's conjecture on my part and not based on what I would term "exhaustive" research. I AM willing to bet that Morgan knew of Rogers and his tactics/ranging rules. But, again, I can't prove that. So don't take that as anything more than a guess. And were I to place a guess, I would say "no, they didn't meet, didn't face off and only possibly knew of each other."

Thanks for the offer of an adult beverage and some range time in GA... I will take you up on that next time I get down there!

On Daniel Morgan... he is one of my heroes of the Revolution. Years ago, American Heritage Magazine did an outstanding profile on him and Morgan's Riflemen. He and his 'shooters' made a huge contribution at Bemis Heights and Saratoga. The battle of Saratoga supposedly started with Horatio "Granny" Gates giving the order "Well, then, order on Morgan to begin the game.” (Rupert Furneaux, Saratoga, pg 20.) He was a fascinating guy and was central to the legend of the American Minuteman as a marksman and rifle shooter. Though this was definitely the minority... it still represents the common perception of the Revolutionary War Colonial soldier. Ultimately, by the end of the Revolution, the tactics of Morgan and, arguably, Rogers, had been supplanted by European tactics embraced by Washington. Also interestingly... the British had adopted a lot of the "ranging" and unconventional warfare tactics attributed to the early American minutemen.

Very complex time... one can (some have) made a career of the period! I can recommend some great books if you/anyone is interested.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
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Sir Coyote!

Thanks for the PM. Sorry about not responding to this earlier. I meant to, but have been wrapped around the axle teaching a class and getting ready for the last phase of my Masters in Military History (graduation in 10 days...)

Not massively educated in this period. My area of interest is Edwardian. But read a lot about this period and know Rogers mostly from myth and legend. A lot of the material on him is equivocal... and it was Kenneth Roberts who created the personae we mostly know these days. And Spencer Tracy!

From what I understand, some Rangers used rifles but most used fowlers or smoothbore muskets. But most of them were drawn from rural folks in New England during the French Indian Wars and were woodsmen, trappers and otherwise schooled in the arts of frontier "Ranging." In Northwest Passage, Kenneth Roberts describes the Rangers as using their rifles to shoot tossed pinecones for practice (not easy in Flintlock Days...) but this is the writing of an historical fiction writer. So is it real or Memorex???? Great question. I don't have a definitive answer. My suspicion is that a few of the Rangers used rifles, but rifles in military use were in a pretty nascent stage during the French Indian Wars (Seven Years War). I suspect that most of the Rangers used personally-owned muskets but were likely proficient in their use compared to many in the era. There is supposed to be a letter/diary entry by a Private Goodnough (SP?) that references the Rangers using rifles, but there is also some argument as to the validity of his arguments. So my suspicion is that some Rangers had rifles, but most had quality muskets/fowlers/smoothbores and simply new how to load and shoot them. Again, this is a total conjecture on my part. There is likely some primary source material that is more definitive, but I haven't looked at it.

As for whether Morgan and Rogers ever met or faced off against each other.... that would have been quite a meeting. For fun, I did some digging to see if they could have crossed paths. But it looks pretty unlikely. Almost certainly, they never faced off in battle. I thought, perhaps, it could be more likely that they met on more friendly terms, but can't see anything to indicate this may have happened. They were just in different places at different times, according to the chronology of events between the French Indian Wars and the Revolugion. Again, that's conjecture on my part and not based on what I would term "exhaustive" research. I AM willing to bet that Morgan knew of Rogers and his tactics/ranging rules. But, again, I can't prove that. So don't take that as anything more than a guess. And were I to place a guess, I would say "no, they didn't meet, didn't face off and only possibly knew of each other."

Thanks for the offer of an adult beverage and some range time in GA... I will take you up on that next time I get down there!

On Daniel Morgan... he is one of my heroes of the Revolution. Years ago, American Heritage Magazine did an outstanding profile on him and Morgan's Riflemen. He and his 'shooters' made a huge contribution at Bemis Heights and Saratoga. The battle of Saratoga supposedly started with Horatio "Granny" Gates giving the order "Well, then, order on Morgan to begin the game.” (Rupert Furneaux, Saratoga, pg 20.) He was a fascinating guy and was central to the legend of the American Minuteman as a marksman and rifle shooter. Though this was definitely the minority... it still represents the common perception of the Revolutionary War Colonial soldier. Ultimately, by the end of the Revolution, the tactics of Morgan and, arguably, Rogers, had been supplanted by European tactics embraced by Washington. Also interestingly... the British had adopted a lot of the "ranging" and unconventional warfare tactics attributed to the early American minutemen.

Very complex time... one can (some have) made a career of the period! I can recommend some great books if you/anyone is interested.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Yessir Mr Morgan was definitely the embodiment of what we think of as a Revolutionary soldier. By the way, what is generally recognized as the true range at which Tim Murphy shot General Fraser?

Also, there were some former Rangers fighting on the American side during the revolution, correct? Is there any record of Rogers knowing one of his boys was now the enemy?

And in real life, how much did John Andre and Rogers know each other?

Thanks so much sir.
 
Sirhrmechanic,

I've been watching it every chance I get. Work has an unusual schedule for me so I don't see them in order.

I thought I would chime in here. Robert Rogers had all kinds of problems after the French and Indian war. He was at odds with most of the established government of England. But, had a solid friend in Amherst. the other problem was right before the American Revolution his alcoholism had gotten to be it's worst. All he pretty much wanted to do was go to war, so he sought a commission from both sides building up to the fight. Washington had him arrested. He escaped and offered his services to a number of Revolutionary units but none would have him. The British, knowing he was a fighter loyal to them, gave him command of the Queens Rangers. He was successful early on, but alcoholism and inability to see his 'peers' as seeing him as an upstart left him unsupported on the British side as well. He was "medically" retired (alcoholism) His later ventures in the American Revolution were not as successful. However, his rules of "Rangering" became so succuessful as sops they are used even today.

And so, fwiw, while he may have sought to become a revolutionary, he was denied and thus throughout the American Revolutionary War, remained a loyalist. Again, his loyalty was really more to fighting and being a hero for that, than either the Revolutionary cause or Loyalist cause. A true mercenary.

He remains one of the steadfast heroes/founding figures of modern American Rangers.
 
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I've gotten got up all he way to the 10th episode now, and I must say that this is one of my favorite shows now. The only thing that I don't like I that it's based up North, so my Revolutionary War heroes aren't mentioned. Maybe later seasons will move it down South (I haven't read the book). I'd love to see some episodes on Francis Marion or Thomas Sumter. Surely there was some sort of espionage going on down here?