Understanding vertical

thefitter

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Please direct me to articles or posts that will help a new reloader (1+ year) understand removing the vertical stringing.

I have found 2 loads that give me .25 moa at 100 & 200 yards but the have a large ES (45) and a SD (14). My first time with a chronograph was this Saturday.

I am now understanding that these loads might not perform well at longer ranges.

I am also understanding that I need to change how I load develop if I intend to shoot LR.

I am a bit frustrated because I thought that I was ready to go to the 600-1000 ranges. Now it seems I have to start from scratch again.
frown.gif


Thanks
 

jagged77

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Re: Understanding vertical

Have you shot past 200 yards yet? If you haven't don't discount your current loads until you have. Chrono's are all well and good but the proof of the pudding is going to be actual downrange performance.
 

thefitter

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Re: Understanding vertical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jagged77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you shot past 200 yards yet? If you haven't don't discount your current loads until you have. Chrono's are all well and good but the proof of the pudding is going to be actual downrange performance. </div></div>

You have no idea how happy it makes me to read that. I will try these loads as is on the longer ranges first, thanks.
 

X-fan

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Re: Understanding vertical

1 inch groups at 200 will be plenty good to start with at 600 and beyond.
You wont hold 1/2 MOA out there, but that wont be the load's problem I promise!
smile.gif


What is you load combo BTW?
There are proven setups that may be easier starting points for you if you run into issues.

Generally speaking 1 MOA groups will let you hit what matters...Despite our love of 1/4MOA groups a local shooter often cleans up at tactical shoots with a 1 MOA gun.
Its not the gun or the load...Its all driver!

Have a blast!
 

Cascade Precision

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Re: Understanding vertical

I read on here that someone tested a few different lots of FGMM (Good match ammo) and got similar (if not worse) results than you did.

Step it out a few hundred yards and see what you can do. The further you go, the more addicting it gets.

Wally
 

shootist2004

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Re: Understanding vertical

If you're shooting half inch groups at 200 yards, you should be helping me!
 

X-fan

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Re: Understanding vertical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're shooting half inch groups at 200 yards, you should be helping me! </div></div>
lol I missed that....I read 1/2 MOA!
 

thefitter

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Re: Understanding vertical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1 inch groups at 200 will be plenty good to start with at 600 and beyond.
You wont hold 1/2 MOA out there, but that wont be the load's problem I promise!
smile.gif


What is you load combo BTW?
There are proven setups that may be easier starting points for you if you run into issues.

Generally speaking 1 MOA groups will let you hit what matters...Despite our love of 1/4MOA groups a local shooter often cleans up at tactical shoots with a 1 MOA gun.
Its not the gun or the load...Its all driver!

Have a blast! </div></div>

Two loads:

Lapua brass
CCI BR2
Berger 185 LR HPBT TARGET
N540 43.6


Lapua brass
CCI BR2
Berger 185 LR HPBT TARGET
N550 45.2

Thanks
 

260shtr

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Re: Understanding vertical

Higher velocity spreads will give more vertical at long range, you should be able to tell at 500 and beyond. As a general rule 20 fps E/S will give 1 MOA of vertival dispersion at 1000 yards.

I have experienced the same thing with 308 Fed Match. I could reload with lower E/S but my load would not out shoot the Fed Match.
 

thefitter

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Re: Understanding vertical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 260 shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... I could reload with lower E/S but my load would not out shoot the Fed Match. </div></div>

Pardon my ignorance but, huh?
 

remaction

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Re: Understanding vertical

Your loads sound just fine. However in answer to your question, increasing the neck tension on the bullet has helped solve some of my vertical spread issues.
 

JimGnitecki

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Re: Understanding vertical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 260 shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... I could reload with lower E/S but my load would not out shoot the Fed Match. </div></div>

Pardon my ignorance but, huh? </div></div>

Lower extreme spread (ES) and standard deviation (SD) are a measure of how much the pure VELOCITY varies for a given factory load that you have bought or handload you have developed. It is measured by using a chronograph to measure the muzzle velocity of "x" rounds fired, and then either manually, or via computer (sometimes built into the chronograph itself), determining the SD via statistcs formulas. Lower SDS and ES are better, because they show that the load is more CONSISTENT in velocity.

However, consitency of velocity, while certainly normally a required attribute for accurate ammunition, is NOT a guarantee of good ammunition, nor of good rifle accuracy, as consistent velocity is only 1 of several factors that contribute to good accuracy.

One example of another factor for good ammunition is quality of the bullet used. One example of another factor for overall rifle accuracy is the harmonics of the barrel. Another is the quality of the barrel itself (great ammo in poor barrel still shotss poorly).

The harmonics one is particularly interesting. You could have really fine ammunition that is very consistent and uses a great bulelt, but if that particular ammunition being fired generates barrel harmonics that happen to be adverse (i.e. the bullet leaves the muzzle of the barrel at say mid-stroke on the harmonic versus near either end ("node")of it, you can still get crappy groups. This is why we handloaders vary the powder charge, looking for a great "node".

Summary: There is a lot more to good accuracy than good SE and good SD.

Jim G
 

PeterN

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Re: Understanding vertical

I take great care to put togrther Sierra 168 loads and still can't make better ammo than FGMM 168.
 

Ballistic308

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Re: Understanding vertical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeterN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I take great care to put togrther Sierra 168 loads and still can't make better ammo than FGMM 168. </div></div>
Start here and post what your target when you get to that point.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
 

colt933

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Re: Understanding vertical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeterN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I take great care to put togrther Sierra 168 loads and still can't make better ammo than FGMM 168. </div></div>

Try harder. It's not that hard.
 

Rover31

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Re: Understanding vertical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeterN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I take great care to put togrther Sierra 168 loads and still can't make better ammo than FGMM 168. </div></div>

Funny but my gun doesn't like fgmm or the black hills match. My handload groups are half the size. I like my wifes cookies better than store bought also!
T
 

werew

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Re: Understanding vertical

How far from the muzzle is your chronograph? Too close and the gases can sometimes cause your chrony to give inaccurate readings. Checking velocities of .223 and 7mm mag I always place my chrony 10-15 feet in front of the muzzle and my SD on my best loads are 8-12 fps per 10 shot strings. I'd try this next time with your chrony, 15ft. distance start with 3-shot strings and if any big variances in m.v. occur, maybe try borrowing a friends chrony to see if it still occurs. Im also wondering if your bullet seating die is crimping some of your brass??? 40fps deviations are big. Has your powder been exposed to warm temps?
 

MALLARD

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Re: Understanding vertical

i'd shoot a round at a lower velocity , with a lower BC , and shot 1 moa groups if it had a low ES/SD. ( versus a ballisitically superior gun that shot 1/4 moa at 200y but had a large ES/SD)

If your ES/SD is different then its going to effect your bullets flight, if you think about the variations in BC , they combine with the ES/SD to result in bigger groups. Sure you can sort bullets which might uniform your BC's and probably your velocities.But simply put, it's ideal to have a low ES/SD and its probably desired above everything else for long range shooting. So as Jim said "There is a lot more to good accuracy than good SE[ES] and good SD" well i disagree. It's unlikely that if you have a large ES/SD that that load would shoot small groups all day long. Good ES/SD is a biproduct of good ammo, they go hand in hand.

45/14 isnt bad for 1000y depending on what bullet and cartridge your shooting. The 338 lapua mag and 50 cals would shoot decent groups if they were doing that. But if you were shooting a bullet with a low BC and low m/v, then its going to be an issue. Something you didnt mention is how many rounds your putting threw the chrono, if its only 3 and your getting that ES/SD , thats bad , but if thats 10 or 15 shots , well that isnt so bad so it depends.

But what would concern me more then the ES/SD is is the temp sensitive powder your using , I use the VVn500 series myself so i know they are pretty sensitive. Your exit times can have allot of deviation , enough so to where if you were not exiting exactly over your ideal node , its probable you would exit while the distortion waves are at the muzzle. If your exiting at the most ideal time then i probably wouldn't worry about it unless your seeing temp changes of 50 degrees or more , then it would matter. But , 45/14 aint bad, 20/10 is considered good.
 

Rover31

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Re: Understanding vertical

What crono are you using? My Chrony is junk on it's best day...
T