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Sidearms & Scatterguns Underwood 357 Sig 65gr Xtreme Defender Chrono Test

You are pathetic. If you don't care about this ammo or projectile, why are you posting? Things change. I am old enough to remember rotary phones and black and white TV. I don't have or use
either one any more. Get this memo you
moron. Go ahead, keep F bombing me, seems to be your only defense.
 
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I trust my Sigs loaded with conventional vetted .357 defense cartridges secured in Safariland holsters.
The P229 is a short 226 in larger caliber. The P229 C has a full size P229 grip with shortened slide/barrel 3.5". The P224 is a smaller derivative of the P229 in two cut down dimensions; shorter slide and grip, still holds10 rounds.
IMG_1842 copy P224 P229C P229 copy.JPG
Sig P229 P224 Safariland GLS 6378 ALS 7TS Photos 2020IMG_5801 copy.jpg
 
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LOL says the guy with a join date of 2017 that doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground, in a thread started by someone with a join date of 2001, literally the year SH started.

You really never even think before those dick beaters start strumming away on the keyboard, do you?

Those Underwood loadings and those extreme bullets are very good and do exactly what they claim. You sound like a poor that’s offended by the mere existence of a premium product that they can’t afford.
Oh boy, Butt Pirate, er.. I mean 308 Pirate, has been trying to have the last word with me over and over again
LOL says the guy with a join date of 2017 that doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground, in a thread started by someone with a join date of 2001, literally the year SH started.

You really never even think before those dick beaters start strumming away on the keyboard, do you?

Those Underwood loadings and those extreme bullets are very good and do exactly what they claim. You sound like a poor that’s offended by the mere existence of a premium product that they can’t afford.
Butt Pirate, er uh.....308 Pirate is a sad and lonely man.
 
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I did the first few years. Switchview specifically throwing a ton of social media shade on printed throw levers. Guess who now has a "Sportsman" line of printed throw levers modeled after mine? LOL
Sorry, what?who? throw levers?(for what?) Quick release mounts? Just curious.
 
I trust my Sigs loaded with conventional vetted .357 defense cartridges secured in Safariland holsters.
The P229 is a short 226 in larger caliber. The P229 C has a full size P229 grip with shortened slide/barrel 3.5". The P224 is a smaller derivative of the P229 in two cut down dimensions; shorter slide and grip, still holds10 rounds.
View attachment 7562438View attachment 7562437
229c is a new one on me. Very nice.
So enjoyable to join a forum and see or learn something new.
 
Sorry, what?who? throw levers?(for what?) Quick release mounts? Just curious.
Tyler Kemp of MK Machining makes throw levers (aka cat tails) for scope magnification rings. Great product and much cheaper than aluminum ones. Mine have been banged around many times and hasn't broken.
 
My LGS has had a NIB Glock 32 for a while, no one would buy it. Finally he made me an offer I couldn’t refuse. I’ve been intrigued by the ballistics the 357 SIG offer, especially with the Underwood loads. I reckon now I’ll find out!

Definitely interested in what others are finding with this caliber.
 
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My LGS has had a NIB Glock 32 for a while, no one would buy it. Finally he made me an offer I couldn’t refuse. I’ve been intrigued by the ballistics the 357 SIG offer, especially with the Underwood loads. I reckon now I’ll find out!

Definitely interested in what others are finding with this caliber.
Big advantage is: 40sw. + p power levels
without the recoil. Neck down case(like all such catridges) allows more velocity with same chamber pressure and less"bolt thust" or breach face thrust in this case. Fluid dynamics trick. My 5" S&W M&P 2.0 is as controllable as my 9mm. pistols. Get a 40sw barrel for your Glock and experiment a little. Enjoy!
Younger guys are calling 357sig the"Hipster" cartridge. Something about funny hats and horned rim glasses,vests and wingtip shoes. I don't git it, but I am rapidly gaining on old fart status myself.
 
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Big advantage is: 40sw. + p power levels
without the recoil. Neck down case(like all such catridges) allows more velocity with same chamber pressure and less"bolt thust" or breach face thrust in this case. Fluid dynamics trick. My 5" S&W M&P 2.0 is as controllable as my 9mm. pistols. Get a 40sw barrel for your Glock and experiment a little. Enjoy!
Younger guys are calling 357sig the"Hipster" cartridge. Something about funny hats and horned rim glasses,vests and wingtip shoes. I don't git it, but I am rapidly gaining on old fart status myself.

.357 Sig is a gateway to the 10mm master race...
 
Varmint load?

Cause it sure as shit ain't good for anything else.

Spoken like someone who knows nothing about the science pertaining to wound ballistics. Pick up a textbook. Or even better yet; Try picking up a 357 SIG loaded with 65 grain Xtreme Defenders and dump a few rounds into gelatin. If you understand how to properly interpret the results as they relate to human wound ballistics.... you'll understand that your "sure as shit" comment is comical at best.
 
Spoken like someone who knows nothing about the science pertaining to wound ballistics. Pick up a textbook. Or even better yet; Try picking up a 357 SIG loaded with 65 grain Xtreme Defenders and dump a few rounds into gelatin. If you understand how to properly interpret the results as they relate to human wound ballistics.... you'll understand that your "sure as shit" comment is comical at best.

I'll give a shit about this gimmick ammo when Dr Gary K Roberts recommends it.
 
Many of the agencies listed on the 357sig wikipedia page have dropped the 357sig round and moved to another cartridge- mostly 9mm.

USSS- dropped 357 sig
FAA FAM- dropped 357 sig
At least two of the state agencies dropped it, but I'll have to find which two- can't remember

I've never heard of any statistically significant number of FBI nor CIA personnel using 357sig

It's a great cartridge when used with proven bullets, but it beats up the guns faster than 9mm +p and the agencies seem to have decided the slight increase in performance isn't worth the costs and additional wear and tear.

With 9mm, 40, 45, and 10mm, it seems the 357sig just hasn't resonated beyond boutique round.
 
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357 Sig is an abortion. If you are going to consider one you are already on the road to non standard service pistols, and if you are going to do that, and require 357 mag ballistics, 9x23 Winchester is a lot better.
 
Get Dr Gary K Roberts up in this thread and we'll discuss how the physiological wound ballistics of this ammo shit all over your uneducated opinion.👍

How does it feel to piss to windward when no one who matters gives a shit about your "knowledge"?
 
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Has DocGKR updated his lists at any point in the past several years?
 
Varmint load? Cause it sure as shit ain't good for anything else.I'll give a shit about this gimmick ammo when Dr Gary K Roberts recommends it.

Terminal ballistics is a multi-faceted science and it's obviously a science that you've never familiarized yourself with. Bullet weight and penetration depth are merely a small fraction of the big picture with regards to fatal gunshot wounds in a clinical setting. Does penetration depth and bullet weight make a difference? Sure, but you can really see where and how the damage is inflicted when comparing supersonic light-weight channeling rounds to subsonic heavyweight expanding rounds in simulation ballistics gelatin or flesh & bone. The ultimate extent of the wound is determined by the degree of kinetic energy transfer on impact, the extent of temporary/permanent cavitation and the amount of bullet fragmentation. In the case of barrier-blind defese rounds which don't rely on impact expansion/deformation such as Xtreme Defenders ... it comes down to their ability to centrifugally impel the surrounding tissue outward at supersonic speeds (inertial microcavitation) which emanates outwards from the permanent wound channel upon impact - also called temporary cavitation. Again, your "gimmick " theory is comical at best.
 
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It's a great cartridge when used with proven bullets, but it beats up the guns faster than 9mm +p
Actually you're looking at an average difference of 2K higher psi cartridge pressure for the 357 Sig vs the 9mm +P. Granted that gain in pressure is precisely why it outperforms everything outside of 9x23, but in reality, the 357 Sig doesn't beat up guns much more than the10mm and 40 cal and all three platforms are SAAMI max-rated at 45,000 psi.
 
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Terminal ballistics is a multi-faceted science and it's obviously a science that you've never familiarized yourself with. Bullet weight and penetration depth are merely a small fraction of the big picture with regards to fatal gunshot wounds in a clinical setting. Does penetration depth and bullet weight make a difference? Sure, but you can really see where and how the damage is inflicted when comparing supersonic light-weight channeling rounds to subsonic heavyweight expanding rounds in simulation ballistics gelatin or flesh & bone. The ultimate extent of the wound is determined by the degree of kinetic energy transfer on impact, the extent of temporary/permanent cavitation and the amount of bullet fragmentation. In the case of barrier-blind defese rounds which don't rely on impact expansion/deformation such as Xtreme Defenders ... it comes down to their ability to centrifugally impel the surrounding tissue outward at supersonic speeds (inertial microcavitation) which emanates outwards from the permanent wound channel upon impact - also called temporary cavitation. Again, your "gimmick " theory is comical at best.
Are you a professional in the field of wound ballistics?

If so, point me to peer reviewed research attributed to you.
 
Only anti-Americans use memes featuring anti-Americans like kolbert.
 
And if I don't give you proper credentials and peer-reviewed research, the facts in which I presented are somehow null & void?

You didn't present any facts. Your saying so doesn't make it so.

If you had any scientific credibility you would not hesitate even a second to comply with my request. The fact that you deflect and resort to ad hominems proves beyond any doubt that you are making all that shit up.

LOL

You sound, in fact, like a shill.
 
You didn't present any facts. Your saying so doesn't make it so. The fact that you deflect and resort to ad hominems proves beyond any doubt that you are making all that shit up.
Just because you're incapable of discerning scientific fact from herp derp responses on the interwebz, doesn't mean that what I stated isn't factual. I don't need to prove myself. If you wanna claim that I "made that shit up" .... then go ahead and try to refute any one of my statements. You don't stand a chance.
 
If you had any scientific credibility you would not hesitate even a second to comply with my request. point me to peer reviewed research attributed to you.

You specifically asked for peer-reviewed research FROM ME🤪. Oh dang .... I never published a peer-reviewed article, so I must be a "shill" who "made that shit up".

Oh and speaking of peer-reviewed terminal ballistics/clinical wound data, my knowledge is acquired through years of studying the science as well as trial and error in the field. I'm also quite proficient in human physiology and understanding intracellular dynamics which helps to make things much clearer when interpreting flesh or gelatin cavitation.

Nonetheless, I'm certainly not gonna spoon-feed the trolls, but here's just a few peer-reviewed papers which you should familiarize yourself with, prior to spouting off nonsensical bullshit;


Panagiotis et al (2014). Gunshot wounds: A review of ballistics related to penetrating trauma. Elsevier. Journal of Acute Disease. 178-185

Penn-Barwell et al (2015). High velocity gunshot injuries to the extremities: management on and off the battlefield. Curr Rev Musculoskelet Med. Sep; 8(3): 312–317.

Fackler er al (1988). Wound ballistics; A review of common misconceptions. JAMA. May 13;259(18):2730-6.


Oehmichen et al (2000). Brain injury after gunshot wounding: morphometric analysis of cell destruction caused by temporary cavitation. J Neurotrauma. Feb;17(2):155-62
 
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With the levels of arrogance & toxicity demonstrated by our resident Alinsky, you'd think he'd have already posted all that peer reviewed data by Dr. Gary Roberts on the real world effectiveness of Underwood 357sig 65gr Xtreme Defender against Man, Kodiak and Polar bears, using service sized pistols.

Someone PM me when that happens!
 
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You're a nobody. Seriously. I've asked for research that directly supports your claims that tiny bullets going faster than common pistol bullets and and still a lot slower than rifle bullets are effective at stopping threats. You have provided nothing but deflection.
 
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you'd think he'd have already posted all that peer reviewed data by Dr. Gary Roberts on the real world effectiveness of Underwood 357sig 65gr Xtreme Defender against Man, Kodiak and Polar bears, using service sized pistols.

So what's with the eternal erections around here for Dr Gary K Roberts?

I tend to not put much credence in dentists who claim to be ballistics experts, yet spout off scientifically-devoid opinions as if they are the ballistic Gospel... Kinda like he did with his nonsensical claims about the 357 Sig when compared to the 9mm.

QUOTE; "At best it offers no gain in bullet penetration and expansion characteristics. What is the point of this cartridge?"

This was the foundation for Lucky Gunner's infamous hit piece on the 357 Sig about 4 years ago. What I find particularly disturbing about Gary K Roberts (and how I discovered him in the first place) is that he authored a paper titled .... "Preliminary Evaluation of.357 Sig JHP Bullets Intended for Law Enforcement Duty" .... and erroneously determined that there was "no gain in bullet penetration and expansion" .

For anyone unaware, no gain in expansion would literally be impossible and speaks volumes about his flawed "scientific" methodologies. The statement is patently and unequivocally false. Much like the FBI.... Gary Roberts gives *FAR* too much credit to projectile penetration depth. It's arguably one of the most overly-hyped misconceptions pertaining to the lethality of fatal gunshot wounds in an ER setting.

During temporary cavitation (which occurs at distances in closer proximity to the intitial deposition of kinetic energy vs the elongated path of kinetic energy loss within the permanent cavity), high velocity-induced mechanical stress pressure waves are generated. As vonSee et al, 2009 and others have demonstrated, high-velocity projectiles create larger temporary cavitation than those of low-velocity projectiles and they [inherently] impart additional tissue damage as a result of these shock wave dynamics.

High velocity-induced pressure waves result in shearing strains and compression of the surrounding tissues called the extravasation zone. This primarily consists of torn capillaries/blood vessels which then efflux plasma, blood, ect. into the surrounding area, thus resulting in additional necrotic tissue loss and hemorrhaging. As evidenced in peer-reviewed research and clinical practice, mortality from gunshot wounds is more often related to vascular injury and shock than blunt trauma. In addition, the vacuum created by high-velocity projectiles during the expansion of the cavity causes suction of any foreign matter, debris and bacteria into the wound.

All of this aside, common sense [should] make it blatantly obvious that if you take two equally-weighted projectiles and mount one on a larger diameter casing (the 357 Sig is .381" to the 9mm's .355"), add on an additional 2,000-5,000 psi greater cartridge pressure and shoot
both projectiles from the same handgun at the same distance, at the same trajectory.... you can ONLY have one outcome; i.e. The one with the greater cartridge pressure deposits the greatest degree of kinetic energy.

The greater the kinetic energy = The greater the degree of kinetic transfer to tissue = The greater degree of temporary/permanent tissue displacement and hemorrhaging



~
 
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I've asked for research that directly supports your claims that tiny bullets going faster than common pistol bullets are effective at stopping threats.

Oh please. So it's either a peer-reviewed study .... or it's "gimmick ammo" that "sure as shit ain't good for anything"????

You know there's no peer-reviewed research on the Lehigh Defense barrier-blind Xtreme Defenders/Xtreme Penetrators. If you're familiar with peer-reviewed ballistics journals, you know that the ammo used in scientific studies is often times, far behind the technology curve.

Nonetheless, if you could at least make an effort to familiarize yourself with the science behind properly interpreting simulation ballistics gelatin and/or gain first-hand experience with these rounds.... then it should be more than obvious that they're not a gimmick by any stretch of the imagination and can most certainly stop a threat.


~
 
Do all your own research and argue and all that good stuff.

However just note that the Underwood Extreme Penetrators are very good and punching through stuff and keeping going, particularly if you get the heavier ones for the given chambering instead of the lightest ones.

That is something to be mindful of if you are using them for Self Defense carry rounds or home defense rounds.

So be careful and understand both the advantages and the dangers that brings.
 
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Bottom gel block (first pic) = Temporary cavitation from 90gr Xtreme Defender traveling at 1,700 fps @578 ft-lbs.

Bottom gel block (second pic) = 90gr Xtreme Defender. Permanent cavitation.

Also note that the non-deforming 90gr Xtreme Defender displaces tissue just as efficiently as any equally-weighted expanding hollow point, yet is barrier-blind.


Screenshot_20220816-193519_YouTube.jpg
Screenshot_20220816-193557_YouTube.jpg
 
Bottom gel block (first pic) = Temporary cavitation from 90gr Xtreme Defender traveling at 1,700 fps @578 ft-lbs.

Bottom gel block (second pic) = 90gr Xtreme Defender. Permanent cavitation.

Also note that the non-deforming 90gr Xtreme Defender displaces tissue just as efficiently as any equally-weighted expanding hollow point, yet is barrier-blind.


View attachment 7935991View attachment 7935992

Why are you shilling for Underwood/Lehigh?
 
Liberty Defense 357 Sig 50gr Fragmenting HP traveling at 2,300 fps @537 ft-lbs

NOTE; With this degree of kinetic energy transfer, penetration depth (despite the base traveling 12" into the block) means little in terms of the lethality of a properly-placed (lightweight) round.





Screenshot_20220817-104257_Gallery.jpg


Screenshot_20220817-104306_Gallery.jpg
 
Do all your own research and argue and all that good stuff.

However just note that the Underwood Extreme Penetrators are very good and punching through stuff and keeping going, particularly if you get the heavier ones for the given chambering instead of the lightest ones.

That is something to be mindful of if you are using them for Self Defense carry rounds or home defense rounds.

So be careful and understand both the advantages and the dangers that brings.

Agreed on the Penetrators and heavier bullets.

Not sure if you've gotten a chance to play around with the Defenders or not, but since the they are constructed with the same materials (just with channeling flutes vs penetrating flutes) the Defenders also do a pretty good job at punching through various barriers whilst still imparting significant damage in gelatin or flesh. Obviously though, their major advantage over HP's is that even after piercing barriers, they don't easily deform and still get the job done.

~
 
Agreed on the Penetrators and heavier bullets.

Not sure if you've gotten a chance to play around with the Defenders or not, but since the they are constructed with the same materials (just with channeling flutes vs penetrating flutes) the Defenders also do a pretty good job at punching through various barriers whilst still imparting significant damage in gelatin or flesh. Obviously though, their major advantage over HP's is that even after piercing barriers, they don't easily deform and still get the job done.

~

We've played with both defenders and Penetrators, but not with any gel blocks.
All our testing was against multiple steel sheets and other penetration tests as that was the primary use case we were looking at them for.
 
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The above toxic bickering about high speed relatively low grain weight ammunition is a non-starter for a consensus resolution as to “best” or “non-conventional” caliber defense pistol carry and en face seems ridiculous.

The topic of critical deterministic variables related to ballistic human wounding is a complex topic , it has not been (re-)solved in the civilian trauma medical / military literature and is not going to be resolved here in a simple over view forum discussion. The topic has been studied / debated extensively by civilian and military trauma surgeons for decades.

I was a trauma surgeon at major metropolitan trauma centers for 10 years as well as forward deployed as a active duty military trauma surgeon in the southwest Asia theater. Surgical contemporaries with Fackler & Roberts et al. I am pretty certain I have a well-informed opinion on this topic.

Location, Location, Location. Relevant in both realty sales and specific human anatomic site gunshot wound disruptions of function.

The FBI studies in 1989 corroborated this concept; location, Not caliber or energy , is the most critical determinant in immediate incapacitation of the humanoid.

Virtually any caliber with the correct trajectory through the reticular activating system (RAS) into the center of your brain will cause instant incapacitation. A Mike Tyson non-penetrating punch imparting a violent impact to one’s skull causes a similar violent disturbance to the solitude of the central brain, then one is unconscious. I authored a paper on the topic (available upon request).

No other non-central nervous system anatomic disruption with a bullet (s) / buckshot is going to result in instant incapacitation of a two-legged varmint.

Even a minor alteration in angle of impact with similar firearms / ammunition may result in dramatically different results in tissue destruction along the course of its path, whether thru-thru or terminating-retained in the human tissue.

One can dump a lot of ballistic energy into a subject e.g. bilateral lung shots, and have little immediate results in arresting a bad guy threat from over running your position or living for minutes to hours to again pose a threat to oneself.

Standardized gelatin blocks do not accurately represent the complexity of skin-fat-muscle -bone barrier composition that bullets may encounter.

Much of this discussion is mental masturbation about variables not controlled in most civilian likely encountered self defense situations. The best concealed carry firearm is the one you have on your person. Utilize it well when the need arises.

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