Rifle Scopes Unreasonable scope expectations???

R

RMS65

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Jun 2, 2019
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#1
Hi everyone, I'm brand new here. About 2 years ago I started shooting more regularly. I'm a type A person with a pretty extensive technical/mechanical background so anything precision and challenging appeals to me. So I'm looking to learn.
Anyway I was shooting my 223 Tikka Varmint at a local range at 100yds for 4 hours and then moved out to 200yds. At 200 I was using 2" florescent orange target stickers. I was having a hard time getting a sharp edge on the stickers and seeing my hits. Sometimes I could and sometimes I couldn't. It was like I was straining my eyes to focus on the target. My hundred yard target was stapled above it and I could see that clearer. Was the florescent orange messing with my head? Is expecting to see 22 caliber holes 200 yards away an unreasonable expectation?
The scope is a Nikon Prostaff 5 3.5-14x40 side focus. I tried adjusting both the side focus and ocular and never could get the reticle and orange target to stay in focus at the same time.
Ps please don't laugh at my targets.
 

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#2
I know nothing about your scope but I shoot at 1/4" dots at 200 yards and see bullet holes with my higher powered scopes. NF BEAST, S&B PM II 5-25 and S&B Ultra Short 5-20's. With the NF 2.5-10X24 I go to 1/2" dots.
 
#4
antithesis said:
Seeing 22 holes at 14x is a challenge. You should also not adjust the scope when looking through it. Look away, make a small correction, then look again and see where you are.
Click to expand...
Yes thank you. I am very aware of that. I spend a lot of time painstakingly focusing my scopes. I start with reticle on a gray sky. Then set the side focus to where the manufacture says for that target distance. I focus my eyes on the target then I dip my head quickly down into to the scope. If the targets not immediately in focus I pull my head out, rotate the ocular a little bit and repeat. I will do this dozens of times on each rifle until I get it right. Then I mark it or tape the ocular
 
#5
I shoot 4 colors of dots ... "red/pink" ... "orange" ... "green" ... and "black" ... and depending on the sun ... sometimes one particular color of the non-black dots is hard to see. It is strange ... as some days it is one color that is "invisible" and some days another. Hence I've migrated more to black dots ... but then I can't see the holes in the black dots :D Life is full of trade-offs.
I only shoot dots 100yds and in ... but I can see 30 cal bullet holes in white paper at 500yds with my scopes, including burris xtr2, which is a sub-$1000 scope.
 
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#8
b6graham said:
but not great scopes. especially at that pricepoint
Click to expand...
I'm looking to upgrade there's a sale on the athelon ares btr that ends today, $550. I'm also looking at the steiner p4xi for 800 but I don't want to lay that out it they're not a significant improvement on the Nikon.
 
#9
Nikon scopes are not bad but our expectations are so high today. We all want S&B performance in a sub 1000.00 scope. And actually, we are not far from getting it. The beauty of capitalism.
 
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#10
I've used this rifle/scope combination out to 315 yards with what I thought was decent clarity. I could see hits on painted 3" steel plates quite easy. Acquiring real world soft targets like woodchucks upto 400 yards was not hard so until now I was pretty happy with the outfit. Only now when I couldn't clearly see a bright orange target at 200 am I bothered.
 
#12
My current dots and groups firing area is facing into the rising sun. If I shoot in the morning, the sun is definitely in my eyes. It is good practice for shooting into the sun. But this condition makes at least one color of the non-black dots "disappear" on a given day. Usually just one color. But this is with all scopes, including middle end scopes like NF ATACR 7-35x ...
Using black dots mitigates. Throwing a garment over my head and the top of the scope, reduces the direct light into my face. And I get to try out my scope sun shades.
So, if you have any "sun" related issues, then that could account for some of the symptoms you describe.
If shooting to the North in one of my other shooting areas, I can see the splotches on the steel out to 640 yards for sure and 800yds sometimes.
 
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#13
Weather can play a factor. Bright sunshine, high humidity, temps over 75(west coast) all change view through a scope, especially a lower end cheap scope. And at 14x with only 40mm, your definitely staring your eye to see 22lr holes. 18x and 44mm would be a minimum I think. But I’d personally go for 20x and 50mm
 
#14
RMS65 said:
I'm looking to upgrade there's a sale on the athelon ares btr that ends today, $550. I'm also looking at the steiner p4xi for 800 but I don't want to lay that out it they're not a significant improvement on the Nikon.
Click to expand...
MK Machining includes throw lever and bubble lever for this sale price too

For the price people give good reviews on it. Played with an ares etr over the weekend which is obviously the next evolution but I was damn impressed
 
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#15
antithesis said:
Seeing 22 holes at 14x is a challenge. You should also not adjust the scope when looking through it. Look away, make a small correction, then look again and see where you are.
Click to expand...
RMS65 said:
Yes thank you. I am very aware of that. I spend a lot of time painstakingly focusing my scopes. I start with reticle on a gray sky. Then set the side focus to where the manufacture says for that target distance. I focus my eyes on the target then I dip my head quickly down into to the scope. If the targets not immediately in focus I pull my head out, rotate the ocular a little bit and repeat. I will do this dozens of times on each rifle until I get it right. Then I mark it or tape the ocular
Click to expand...


Never mind, I see what you are talking about. Fine tuning the reticle focus at the range. You could end up off focusing the reticle at the manufacture etched ranges rather than getting zero parallax then focusing the reticle. Sometimes, as in usually, those numbers aren't exact.
 
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#16
Please explain. I was talking about adjusting the ocular. With parallax I start with scope set on the indicated distance and adjust the side focus until there's no more parallax. I'm always willing to learn something.
 
#19
I'm not sure where Nikon scopes are made, but Athlon scopes are "made in China" ... I have one which I use on tikka t1x for groups and dots at 25 and 50yds and tree rats in the day out to 75yds ... and for those limited purposes the chinese scope works. But if I wanted an "upgrade" from the Nikon, I'm be looking at something other than "made in China".

I wish they had called the "side focus" knob the "parallax removal" knob ... but glad to see some use it primarily to remove parallax :)

==
For a sub-$1000 scope, I still like the xtr2 scopes ... I've also looked hard at the SWFA scopes.
 
#21
wigwamitus said:
I'm not sure where Nikon scopes are made, but Athlon scopes are "made in China" ... I have one which I use on tikka t1x for groups and dots at 25 and 50yds and tree rats in the day out to 75yds ... and for those limited purposes the chinese scope works. But if I wanted an "upgrade" from the Nikon, I'm be looking at something other than "made in China".

I wish they had called the "side focus" knob the "parallax removal" knob ... but glad to see some use it primarily to remove parallax :)

==
For a sub-$1000 scope, I still like the xtr2 scopes ... I've also looked hard at the SWFA scopes.
Click to expand...
Which swfa? I had a straight 16 or 20 power SS and I couldn't get to focus as sharp as my Nikon. I sent it back and they were great about it. Excellent service.
My Nikon is built in the Philippines
 
#23
... My Nikon is built in the Philippines ...
Click to expand...
xtr2 also made in Philippines ... maybe PI scopes are better than PRC scopes? At least in my experience. Though all scopes are presumably "built to spec".

... Which swfa? ...
Click to expand...
Well for dots, I like more magnification. Actually dots generates more desire for magnification than long distance (wind practice) and certainly more than critter control (hunting). I like to be able to quarter the dots, which is why i've tried non-black dots.

So, there is this one, which would be at the top of my list ... since it is FFP and has a parallax removal knob.

https://www.swfa.com/swfa-ss-hd-5-20x50-tactical-30mm-riflescope.html?___SID=U But it lacks a zero stop, which is a show stopper for me for a dialing scope as I don't allow myself to look at the turrets when dialing since I often shoot at night. I guess that's why I don't have one now that I remember.
 
#24
RMS65 said:
Which swfa? I had a straight 16 or 20 power SS and I couldn't get to focus as sharp as my Nikon. I sent it back and they were great about it. Excellent service.
My Nikon is built in the Philippines
Click to expand...

You found out too, aye. That's why I sold all but one of my SWFA's.

Unfortunately you'd have to step up to the Athlon Cronus BTR to get into the nice glass category, plus the scope pulls off 29x well which helps when shooting groups and seeing bullet holes at distance.

I had a Bushnell 3-12 LRHS that had very good glass, seems like people like the 4.5-18 as well.
 
#25
Otherwise, the xtr2 4-20x scr-mil (or moa) I can recommend ...

https://www.opticsplanet.com/burris-xtreme-tactical-4-20-50mm-illum-riflescope.html

OP gives 10% discount to all who call in and ask for it. So this one should be about $900 today.

It has parallax removal knob, diopter adjustment, illumination, zero stop, sun shade, all included. Made in PI.

The 4x is hunting usable (less is better) and the 20x works for dots.

==

Up from there, the NX8 2.5-20x that will be available later this year get really close to the "do everything" scope ... the 2.5x is great for hunting ... the 20x for dots ... and parallax removal, diopter, zero stop and illumination, though those will probably be in the $1,500 to $2,000 range.
 
#26
I have the xtr2 3-15x scr-mil ... and its great for hunting and long distance (wind practice) but a little short on magnification for dots, imho.
 
#27
back to the beginning
you said you were shooting for 4 hrs
you might just be getting eye fatigue, happens to me at times
what about mirage in the air and off the rifle, are you cooking the barrel

i read the thread so if this was said...disregard
 
#28
... you might just be getting eye fatigue, happens to me ...
Click to expand...

Good point !

Me too ... usually after around 70-100 rds of 30 cal ...

since realizing that ... I've started to take breaks ... doing other tasks ...
 
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#29
brianf said:
back to the beginning
you said you were shooting for 4 hrs
you might just be getting eye fatigue, happens to me at times
what about mirage in the air and off the rifle, are you cooking the barrel

i read the thread so if this was said...disregard
Click to expand...
You read it right. I was methodically alternating between 3 rifles for 4 hours before I tried 200. None of them got hot especially the Tikka the most rounds I ran through it in a row was ten. The barrel was cold on the first round.
You might be onto something with the fatigue. I didn't have a particular good day with the other hunting style rifles. They both usually shoot better than moa off my elbows, sitting at a bench. That day I went straight to the range from working overnight and couldn't shoot those better than 1.5 moa, really closer to 2 moa. So I didn't even think about shooting those at 200. I figured it was from lack of practice. I've been shooting a lot of rimfire and springer air rifles lately. Totally different holds on all of them.
 
#30
The ocular adjusts the focus for your eye to the reticle. It is set once, then you lock it and stop touching it unless your eyes change. You DO NOT set target focus with it, nor does it change with the range. Look off into the sky, glance into the scope, the reticle should be sharp and solid black. If not, make an adjustment and recheck. Once you have the reticle focus set, lock it.

Parallax sets focus of the target onto the plane of the reticle. Note that that may not make the target sharp. Parallax is checked by moving your head a bit behind the scope, if either the target or reticle appears to shift position, then parallax is incorrect. Most scopes have a fair bit of backlash in the side focus system, so it's best to set it to max at either end, then adjust in one direction. If you overshoot, go back to max and start over.

Seeing .22 holes in paper at 200 yards need clear air, sharp focus, good contrast and probably 20x. Rifle scopes are not observation tools, they are aiming devices. Spotting scopes are what you want here, resolution is improved with larger objectives and resolution is what you need for seeing small details, like .22 inch holes
 
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#31
Right, but brianf is talking about EYE FATIGUE .. not just "fatigue" ... the symptoms I get with EYE FATIGUE are on the one hand similar to glare (kind of an orange out) and inability to focus. Studying up on this ... apparently most shooters can suffer from this if they look thru magnified optics for too long at a stretch ... but older shooters experience the symptoms in a shorter amount of time behind the optics. Taking 30m+ breaks seems to mitigate.

And I also rotate the rifles when shooting 100s of rounds in one day ... but then learned I needed to rotate me also :D
 
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#33
wigwamitus said:
Right, but brianf is talking about EYE FATIGUE .. not just "fatigue" ... the symptoms I get with EYE FATIGUE are on the one hand similar to glare (kind of an orange out) and inability to focus. Studying up on this ... apparently most shooters can suffer from this if they look thru magnified optics for too long at a stretch ... but older shooters experience the symptoms in a shorter amount of time behind the optics. Taking 30m+ breaks seems to mitigate.

And I also rotate the rifles when shooting 100s of rounds in one day ... but then learned I needed to rotate me also :D
Click to expand...
Yes, I qualify for older shooter. I'm 53 and my eyes are better than 20 20 at a distance, but I require reading glasses for anything inside an arms length. So they are weakening. I definitely noticed that staring through scopes for hours can fatigue my eyes. That's why I meticulously fine tune the focus on my scopes. Getting the reticle sharp is only a starting point. You can get a sharp reticle and never get a clear picture at any parallax adjustment if you over shoot the right ocular adjustment. I only mess with the ocular while looking at a target when there's a problem. I sometimes doubt my adjustment and recheck things because my eyes are unfortunately changing. When I get things set up right I can shoot much longer without eye fatigue. When the target image and the reticle are focused on the same plane, eye strain is greatly reduced. That said, I think fatigue, eye and physical, along with florescent orange in direct sunlight overpowering everything has a lot to do with my latest issue.
 
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#35
for less than the cost of a new scope you could pick up a target cam that allows you to see your target and the wholes you make with ease even the 300. dollar target cams would do the job and some use blue tooth so if you have a tablet you could see the image next to you with little having to move . if you want a better scope then you have loads of options , like pink circle targets or orange without the lines in it 2'' or less circle lable stickers shot hits nice even from a 22 and at 15.00 per 1000 that's a cheap target to shoot .
7088910
been using these for a while . gl and happy shooting you can even make your own shoot n see targets for pretty low cost .
 
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#36
You CANNOT correctly set ocular focus looking at a close range target. Incorrect ocular focus is part of the problem of eye fatigue, as your eye is working to 'correct' the out of focus image, straining the muscles used to focus.

Ocular focus has one purpose, to adjust the scope to your eyesight, which is not changing much throughout the day. This is a diopter setting, which if you have a prescription for reading glasses you would recognize as the +/- part of your scrip.

You don't change your readers, don't change your ocular adjustment. It gets set with the parallax at infinity and the scope pointed at the sky or other solid background at range exceeding 1000 yards. You must only look into the scope for a second or to at a time, of try to adjust while staring through the scope your eye will try to compensate and you'll end up with a bad setting.

The parallax adjustment, in a quality scope anyway, should provide sharp focus of the image on the reticle at the same time the parallax is removed. Because of various distortion problems that may or may not be the case at all ranges. What the parallax adjustment DOES NOT do is affect reticle focus. No amount of twiddling that knob changes the reticle.

Depending on scope construction (FFP v SFP) changing the magnification setting can have an effect on both reticle focus and parallax, as well as POI. Second Focal Plane systems are subject to track out error and parallax /focus issues as the cell containing the reticle is moved when magnification is adjusted. FFP systems do not have these issues.
 
#37
CoryT said:
You CANNOT correctly set ocular focus looking at a close range target. Incorrect ocular focus is part of the problem of eye fatigue, as your eye is working to 'correct' the out of focus image, straining the muscles used to focus.

Ocular focus has one purpose, to adjust the scope to your eyesight, which is not changing much throughout the day. This is a diopter setting, which if you have a prescription for reading glasses you would recognize as the +/- part of your scrip.

You don't change your readers, don't change your ocular adjustment. It gets set with the parallax at infinity and the scope pointed at the sky or other solid background at range exceeding 1000 yards. You must only look into the scope for a second or to at a time, of try to adjust while staring through the scope your eye will try to compensate and you'll end up with a bad setting.

The parallax adjustment, in a quality scope anyway, should provide sharp focus of the image on the reticle at the same time the parallax is removed. Because of various distortion problems that may or may not be the case at all ranges. What the parallax adjustment DOES NOT do is affect reticle focus. No amount of twiddling that knob changes the reticle.

Depending on scope construction (FFP v SFP) changing the magnification setting can have an effect on both reticle focus and parallax, as well as POI. Second Focal Plane systems are subject to track out error and parallax /focus issues as the cell containing the reticle is moved when magnification is adjusted. FFP systems do not have these issues.
Click to expand...
I agreed with you I'm not looking to start an argument over this. I'm saying that a reticle will focus sharply over a lot of ocular/diopter rotation when set at infinity. We'll say 60 degrees but it can be fine tuned within that using the target providing you've eliminated parallax. Within that 60 degrees of ocular/diopter rotation there may be 5 degrees that both the target and reticle are sharp. That's the sweet spot. I'm new but I've done this a bunch of times. I can't tell you how many "experienced" shooters at the range are looking through $2000 blurry scopes because they have no clue.
On a different note I went to camera land and looked through an ares btr and a p4xi and the steiner was amazing. The BTR was no better than my Nikon and the eye box was so twitchy it gave me the fits. Now I just need to bite the bullet.
 
#39
To the OP - the $1k range is a real sweet spot for scopes right now. SWFA HD is the best of the bunch optically and super-reliable, but low on features. XTR2, PST2, and others are different mixes of features, glass, and reliability, but it’s really hard to go wrong with the SWFA if you just want a glass upgrade and still make sure you’ve got something that will hold up over the long haul.
 
#40
wigwamitus said:
My current dots and groups firing area is facing into the rising sun. If I shoot in the morning, the sun is definitely in my eyes. It is good practice for shooting into the sun. But this condition makes at least one color of the non-black dots "disappear" on a given day. Usually just one color. But this is with all scopes, including middle end scopes like NF ATACR 7-35x ...
Using black dots mitigates. Throwing a garment over my head and the top of the scope, reduces the direct light into my face. And I get to try out my scope sun shades.
So, if you have any "sun" related issues, then that could account for some of the symptoms you describe.
If shooting to the North in one of my other shooting areas, I can see the splotches on the steel out to 640 yards for sure and 800yds sometimes.
Click to expand...

ATACR is a "Middle end scope"??

Compared to what? A $7k Hensoldt ZF 3.5-26x56?
 
#43
...
ATACR is a "Middle end scope"??

Compared to what? A $7k Hensoldt ZF 3.5-26x56? ...
Click to expand...

Exactamundo !!! :D

Or even compared to a piddly ole TT !!

I drew the line at $4,100 since I think the list price of my 7-35x T3 + tan was just over $4,000 ... :)

And that's about where the prices on the TT 5-25x 's start :)

==

... ATACR F1 is very much a high end scope ...
Click to expand...

I might agree ... but I doubt the TTers and Heniers would !! :)
 
#44
wigwamitus said:
Exactamundo !!! :D

Or even compared to a piddly ole TT !!

I drew the line at $4,100 since I think the list price of my 7-35x T3 + tan was just over $4,000 ... :)

And that's about where the prices on the TT 5-25x 's start :)

==



I might agree ... but I doubt the TTers and Heniers would !! :)
Click to expand...

My primary scope is a TT525P and I prefer it over the ATACR for my use, but I freely admit that ATACR F1 is very much a high end scope.
 
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#47
fxdrider said:
OP, if you haven't picked up the Athlon or the Steiner yet, this might be worth checking out:

Vortex Viper PST Gen II 5-25x50 EBR-2D MRAD (FFP) $699.99
Click to expand...
Thanks. I didn't like the athelon. I'm on the fence with the steiner. It's a good deal on what I think is great glass but it's still a fair amount of money for me and the peripherals get expensive. 34mm rings and 56mm cap and sunshade. This Vortex might be the way to go but I'm not familiar with this exact scope.
 
#48
200yds for a .22lr hole is an unreasonable ask for 14x.

With a good 25x scope, the right conditions (lighting behind you / dark background behind your light target), and good eyes, you will be able to resolve .22lr holes at 200 passably. The conditions are a very important factor in this. Light behind the target is much more difficult. Those conditions lessen contrast between hole and target, often highlight old holes in the backer of the target that can show though the target, and also spits some stray light around in the optic due to the angle of the optic to the sun.
 
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#49
RMS65 said:
Thanks. I didn't like the athelon. I'm on the fence with the steiner. It's a good deal on what I think is great glass but it's still a fair amount of money for me and the peripherals get expensive. 34mm rings and 56mm cap and sunshade. This Vortex might be the way to go but I'm not familiar with this exact scope.
Click to expand...

As I understand it, normally this model scope is available with their EBR-2C reticle, which has the elevation numbers located right next to the center cross-hair. This particular model (I think I read somewhere that it was a special run for MidwayUSA) has the ECR-2D reticle. That places the elevation numbers away from the center cross-hair and at the outside of the Christmas tree dots. It also has pointed coarse reference lines, as opposed to squared lines in the EBR-2C.

Most PST Gen II 5-25 Mrad scopes:
PST-G2-5-25X50-EBR2C-MRAD-FFP.jpg

This version:
EBR-2D-MRAD-FFP.png

As a matter of personal preference, I'd have to say I prefer the EBR-2D reticle that this one has. That's just me, though.
 
#50
fxdrider said:
As I understand it, normally this model scope is available with their EBR-2C reticle, which has the elevation numbers located right next to the center cross-hair. This particular model (I think I read somewhere that it was a special run for MidwayUSA) has the ECR-2D reticle. That places the elevation numbers away from the center cross-hair and at the outside of the Christmas tree dots. It also has pointed coarse reference lines, as opposed to squared lines in the EBR-2C.

Most PST Gen II 5-25 Mrad scopes:
View attachment 7089876

This version:
View attachment 7089877

As a matter of personal preference, I'd have to say I prefer the EBR-2D reticle that this one has. That's just me, though.
Click to expand...
you wouldn't be the only one who likes the 2D more than the 2C
 
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