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Upgrade for the V3 AutoTrickler

NICETRY said:
For under throw issues I suggest setting your target weight above what you want by at least .010 but you might play with that to get a more consistent result. With the disk it will drop at a faster rate without overthrowing because when it stops there is no chance of extra powder falling into the cup when scale reaches the target weight. I’ll see if I can get some video of mine dropping staball this week. I have a PRS match coming up so I can throw some in so you can see.
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Yeah, I always forget to try setting it for 43.51 instead of 43.5 gr . I get exactly 43.5 maybe half the time. When it is 43.48, I actuate it by hand just enough to get a few more balls to drop into the cup amd get right on 43.5 but that adds a lot of time and id rather not have to if I can do without it.

I would really appreciate seeing it do ball powder. I am very likely to order one of these. Just being able to remove it without messing with the wires is a big plus. Emptying the trickler is a pain with ball powder
 
Regarding underthrows... Can't say if Adam has changed things, but in the V1 the controller stops the motor rotation when the actual weight is 0.02gr / 0.001gn below the target weight. This was to allow for the short amount of time it takes for the motor to actually stop as well as the scale response time, knowing that another kernel or two might drop or be in the process of dropping into the pan when the controller stops the motor rotation.

While that was the right approach for the original tube style trickler, it might not be ideal for this new trickler, and if your trickler keeps stopping slightly under the target weight setting your target weight slightly over your actual desired weight would be a good workaround.

I haven't got a chance to actually load with my new trickler yet, but if it consistently drops just under the target weight I can simply tweak the code for the trickler stop point. Unfortunately that's not an option other autotrickler users have.
 
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Finally got a chance to play with mine today.

It's very repeatable and quick, I didn't have any overthrows. It occasionally binds up and needs a helping hand, this was with N133 which is a very fine extruded powder. I need to try the other notched disc and see if that helps.

Unfortunately... It's very, very messy with my current setup. It bounces lots of kernels out of the PVA cup and they go all over the place, even after trying to aim the output tube of the ingenuity trickler to different spots on the cup. The old rotary trickler never had the issue with bouncing kernels out. I have a hunch this is happening because the new ingenuity trickler is dropping the powder from a higher elevation and at a ~45 degree angle, which gives a bit more potential energy to the falling kernels, so they bounce out of the cup. This is a problem I fought with my own Harrell's based auto throw, I had to make an output diffuser to slow down the dropping kernels to prevent a mess from splash and bouncing.

I'm going to have to either rig something up in the output tube of the ingenuity trickler to slow down the falling kernels, or switch back to the taller stainless shot glasses I used to use instead of the low height PVA cup I'm currently using.

Update:

Rearranged the output tube from my Harrell's and went back to the taller 2oz stainless shot glasses (2" high) instead of the much shorter PVA cups (1" high.) All powder from the trickler stays in the taller shot glasses instead of bouncing out of the PVA cups and ending up all over the top of the scale-- so that issue is solved.

Also, tried the other disc in the trickler and still had occasional stalling with N133 that needed a twist of the finger to get going again. I need to look into that issue more closely, but it feels like a kernel might be getting wedged between the disc and the little deflector/guide at the 12 o'clock position.
 
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Kiba said:
Finally got a chance to play with mine today.

It's very repeatable and quick, I didn't have any overthrows. It occasionally binds up and needs a helping hand, this was with N133 which is a very fine extruded powder. I need to try the other notched disc and see if that helps.

Unfortunately... It's very, very messy with my current setup. It bounces lots of kernels out of the PVA cup and they go all over the place, even after trying to aim the output tube of the ingenuity trickler to different spots on the cup. The old rotary trickler never had the issue with bouncing kernels out. I have a hunch this is happening because the new ingenuity trickler is dropping the powder from a higher elevation, which gives a bit more potential energy to the falling kernels, so they bounce out of the cup. This is a problem I fought with my own Harrell's based auto throw, I had to make an output diffuser to slow down the dropping kernels to prevent a mess from splash and bouncing.

I'm going to have to either rig something up in the output tube of the ingenuity trickler to slow down the falling kernels, or switch back to the taller stainless shot glasses I used to use instead of the low height PVA cup I'm currently using.

Update:

Rearranged the output tube from my Harrell's and went back to the taller 2oz stainless shot glasses (2" high) instead of the much shorter PVA cups (1" high.) All powder from the trickler stays in the taller shot glasses instead of bouncing out of the PVA cups and ending up all over the top of the scale-- so that issue is solved.

Also, tried the other disc in the trickler and still had occasional stalling with N133 that needed a twist of the finger to get going again. I need to look into that issue more closely, but it feels like a kernel might be getting wedged between the disc and the little deflector/guide at the 12 o'clock position.
Click to expand...
Powder bouncing out is a problem with certain cups. I put a piece of paper on one side of my cup to act as a deflector. It has helped.

For your issue with powder hanging up the trickler. If you haven’t already take some alcohol and wipe the disk down and inside of the cup very good. The discs have a light coating of oil on them that can cause powder to stick just enough it won’t drop quickly. This has helped some who have had a similar issue. Unfortunately there is inconsistency in kernel size for VV powder as well as the RL lines of powder that makes them hard to make run perfectly.
 
Already wiped the discs and hopper out with solvent and a rag to remove any oil residue. It's not kernels sticking to the disc causing the binding and stopping the wheel, I think it's kernels getting wedged between the top of the notched disc and the removable deflector occasionally instead of the kernels being directed down the dispensing tube by the deflector, and when that happens it binds up the disc and then the drive wheels slip. There is very little clearance between the bottom of the deflector and the top of the disc.

I need to try running it with the deflector removed and see if the binding stops; if that helps maybe I'll try shimming the deflector up slightly. If running without the deflector doesn't negatively affect the accuracy of the trickler, maybe I'll just leave it off. The trickler on the Prometheus seems to work just fine without a deflector, maybe that's the case here as well.
 
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Also, if you have too much powder in the cup, it’s more likely to bind. I generally have one “throw” from the auto throw in the cup and usually don’t have any binding with N150. If I add two it’ll bind much more often.
 
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Tpb10505 said:
Also, if you have too much powder in the cup, it’s more likely to bind. I generally have one “throw” from the auto throw in the cup and usually don’t have any binding with N150. If I add two it’ll bind much more often.
Click to expand...

I started with about 100 grains in the trickler, as Paul suggests in his setup and use videos. By the time I stopped testing last night there was probably only 20-30 grains left in the cup and it was still having occasional issues.

Did some more experimenting last night and found there are 2 different binding cases.

Case 1 is a "soft" bind where the wheel will still rotate but becomes difficult to rotate, and the added friction usually causes the drive wheels to slip. From what I can see this happens when a kernel or kernels orient themselves long-wise while sitting against the back side of a notch as the wheel rotates (i.e. the long axis of the kernel ends up facing the center of rotation of the wheel); in this case the kernel wedges itself between the bottom of the notch in the wheel and the outer circumference of the cup. The more kernels that do this at any given time, the greater the friction on the wheel. Part of this is because N133 is a very small/short extruded powder. A notched wheel with shallower notches than the two wheels that are provided with the trickler would probably keep the kernels from turning sideways and wedging and prevent this issue, but there are no extra notched wheels available yet. Just for fun I tried using the ball powder disc without the wiper/deflector installed (if the wiper/deflector was installed it would hit the kernels and jam the disc) and while the ball powder disc never had the friction issue like the notched discs, eventually the small N133 kernels clogged about 3/4 of the holes in the ball powder disc and the trickling rate became very slow.

Case 2 is a "hard" bind where the wheel seemingly hits a hard stop and won't rotate at all. I tracked this down to kernels sticking to the notches and not dropping down the output chute. When this happens the kernel gets pinched between the notch on the wheel and the side of the housing over the output chute and binds the disc. See the picture below, the red arrow points to the stuck kernel that stopped the disc.

IMG_20220307_174118__01__01.jpg


Note that this did happen with the wiper/deflector installed to the correct "notched" position with the ball that helps to knock powder down into the output chute. This issue seems to have been solved by washing the wheel in solvent again-- this time using brake cleaner (much more aggressive than the ether I used the first time), then using a toothbrush soaked in brake cleaner to scrub each individual notch, then spraying it off again with brake cleaner. This seems to have eliminated the kernels occasionally sticking to the wheel causing the "hard" binding/stop-- at least for the tests yesterday.

I still really like the trickler and feel it's a big improvement in precision over the standard rotary trickler without sacrificing speed-- but it is certainly more sensitive to powder kernel size than the simple rotary trickler. Additional notched wheel configurations are probably going to be needed to handle all powders without malfunctions. I'd like to try a wheel with notches about 1/2 the depth of the included 2 wheels to see if that helps with the "soft" binding/drag issue that I'm currently experiencing with N133.

I also need to try it with some other very small kernel extruded powders like AR Comp or H322 and see if they have similar issues to N133.
 
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Kiba said:
I started with about 100 grains in the trickler, as Paul suggests in his setup and use videos. By the time I stopped testing last night there was probably only 20-30 grains left in the cup and it was still having occasional issues.

Did some more experimenting last night and found there are 2 different binding cases.

Case 1 is a "soft" bind where the wheel will still rotate but becomes difficult to rotate, and the added friction usually causes the drive wheels to slip. From what I can see this happens when a kernel or kernels orient themselves long-wise while sitting against the back side of a notch as the wheel rotates (i.e. the long axis of the kernel ends up facing the center of rotation of the wheel); in this case the kernel wedges itself between the bottom of the notch in the wheel and the outer circumference of the cup. The more kernels that do this at any given time, the greater the friction on the wheel. Part of this is because N133 is a very small/short extruded powder. A notched wheel with shallower notches than the two wheels that are provided with the trickler would probably keep the kernels from turning sideways and wedging and prevent this issue, but there are no extra notched wheels available yet. Just for fun I tried using the ball powder disc without the wiper/deflector installed (if the wiper/deflector was installed it would hit the kernels and jam the disc) and while the ball powder disc never had the friction issue like the notched discs, eventually the small N133 kernels clogged about 3/4 of the holes in the ball powder disc and the trickling rate became very slow.

Case 2 is a "hard" bind where the wheel seemingly hits a hard stop and won't rotate at all. I tracked this down to kernels sticking to the notches and not dropping down the output chute. When this happens the kernel gets pinched between the notch on the wheel and the side of the housing over the output chute and binds the disc. See the picture below, the red arrow points to the stuck kernel that stopped the disc.

View attachment 7823201

Note that this did happen with the wiper/deflector installed to the correct "notched" position with the ball that helps to knock powder down into the output chute. This issue seems to have been solved by washing the wheel in solvent again-- this time using brake cleaner (much more aggressive than the ether I used the first time), then using a toothbrush soaked in brake cleaner to scrub each individual notch, then spraying it off again with brake cleaner. This seems to have eliminated the kernels occasionally sticking to the wheel causing the "hard" binding/stop-- at least for the tests yesterday.

I still really like the trickler and feel it's a big improvement in precision over the standard rotary trickler without sacrificing speed-- but it is certainly more sensitive to powder kernel size than the simple rotary trickler. Additional notched wheel configurations are probably going to be needed to handle all powders without malfunctions. I'd like to try a wheel with notches about 1/2 the depth of the included 2 wheels to see if that helps with the "soft" binding/drag issue that I'm currently experiencing with N133.

I also need to try it with some other very small kernel extruded powders like AR Comp or H322 and see if they have similar issues to N133.
Click to expand...
I use 45gr in the trickler. If I put two throws (90ish) it’ll bind much more frequently. I would try putting half of what you normally do with the wiper and would bet it functions better.
 
For those experiencing powder bouncing out of the cup, here’s your easy fix. Shrink wrap at end of tube. I tried 2 different sizes. Both worked. Experiment depending on powder kernel size I’d say. It slows the powder enough to keep it all in my cup from MK machining. I didn’t have any powder hanging up in it. Cut length to suit you. Once they are made you can slide them off and on depending on what you need for different powders.
 

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Kentucreed6 said:
For those experiencing powder bouncing out of the cup, here’s your easy fix. Shrink wrap at end of tube. I tried 2 different sizes. Both worked. Experiment depending on powder kernel size I’d say. It slows the powder enough to keep it all in my cup from MK machining. I didn’t have any powder hanging up in it. Cut length to suit you. Once they are made you can slide them off and on depending on what you need for different powders.
Click to expand...
how much clearance are you leaving from the lowest point of the "tip" to the top of the powder cup..it its to close theyll make contact/spillage etc

thanks
 
brianf said:
how much clearance are you leaving from the lowest point of the "tip" to the top of the powder cup..it its to close theyll make contact/spillage etc

thanks
Click to expand...
I leave just enough space to get the cup under. Contact will not cause spillage as the is no powder held in the tube here.
 
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beenjammin said:
Im actually kind of shocked Brand has not tried to stop this device, but of course im trying to get my hands on one for my V3. Out of stock with no back order or preorder. I wonder if these took off faster then the designer foresaw.
Click to expand...
It certainly looks similar. Disc metering devices are found in all sorts of machines. Not sure he can limit use because of that. In other words, I doubt his patent covers the actual metering disc.
 
I wouldn't be surprised either way. He's threatened legal action against me for less...
 
beenjammin said:
Im actually kind of shocked Brand has not tried to stop this device, but of course im trying to get my hands on one for my V3. Out of stock with no back order or preorder. I wonder if these took off faster then the designer foresaw.
Click to expand...
Paul is working on getting a pre-order on his site I think, and a larger 2nd run is already in production. He didn’t want to start with any sort of preorder before release, wanted to have 250 of them boxed and ready to go, so there’s probably a limit on upfront capital someone can commit to a product before getting it off the ground.
 
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The first 250-300 units support the next 900 units, which then hopefully support further development of the product and integrations with other tools.
 
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Took me awhile to get my unit working how I like. Needed both rubbing alcohol and a harsher degreaser, but now it is great. I can report that Reloder 16 also works well in disc 7545. I am guessing 15 will as well, but need to confirm.
 
Finally, some actual loading progress to report.

Loaded 400 rounds yesterday with N133. It's fast. By the time I finish seating a bullet and putting it in the ammo box the next charge is finished and waiting on me. I use two identically weighed powder cups, so things are always in motion.

As far as accuracy… 381 of the 400 throws were within -0.001 grams to dead on the target weight (FX120 has a bit better resolution running in grams than grains, so I run it in grams.) 13 of the throws were +0.001 grams over the target weight. 6 throws stopped at 0.002 grams under the target weight, so rotating the trickler manually one or two notches brought those up to target weight (not that I would be likely to see -0.002 grams underweight on the actual target when shooting.) There were zero overthrows of +0.002 grams or more over the target weight. That is *excellent* accuracy IMO compared to the old rotary trickler which had far more frequent overthrows (an overthrow being +0.002 grams or more over the target weight by my standards.) It was very, very nice to never spend time tossing back or picking out one or two kernels from overcharges, something I had to do far more often than I cared for with the old rotary trickler, along with not having to mess with tilt angles of the old rotary trickler for best flow rate and most consistent behavior.

As far as general trickler behavior and problems, during the reloading session there were 3 cases of “soft” binding where the notched wheel developed excess friction and the drive wheels started slipping and it required a twist of the finger to free up and get moving again.

There were zero cases of “hard” binding (i.e. where a kernel gets pinched between a notch and the cup housing as I posted pictures of a few posts up.) A thorough cleaning of the cup housing and the notched wheels with aggressive solvent and a brush is a must.

Summary… this thing is awesome. Not having to interrupt the workflow to deal with overthrows makes me happy!
 
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I know Paul is working on a disk for N570 but I decided to 3d print one just to see if I could get it to work. Surprisingly, I got one working on the third try. I've only done a few trickles and it need further testing but it's possible to print one yourself.
 
reubenski said:
...shoots half moa groups with SDs in the high single digits....

(Just teasing 🤣) I'm only mad they sold out the day I went to buy one....
Click to expand...

SDs are zero actually with the new trickler... at least they're zero when I only shoot one shot over the chronograph so my spreadsheet looks better. :p

Don't see any changes on my chronograph or spreadsheet compared to the rotary trickler honestly, but it does save bench time as I don't have to deal with as many overcharges. The thing just works, and works consistently.

Another nice thing I've noticed is if you accidentally bump the end of the trickler tube with the powder cup while removing or replacing the cup it doesn't drop stray kernels all over the scale like the rotary trickler does.

Only slight concern I have is the drive roller arm tensioning spring rides on the motor shaft spacer, and eventually it might wear a groove in the spacer since the shaft and spacer rotate while the spring is fixed. It's a low speed device and if it ever does wear a groove it will probably take a very long time to do so, but I'm tempted to relocate the arm tensioning spring off the motor shaft spacer so I never have to worry about it wearing a groove. That's probably just my OCD worrying about a non-issue though.

While I've regretted ordering the initial release of other products and finding they aren't everything they promised they were, I don't regret this purchase. Be interesting to see if the next production batch is identical or if there's any small changes.
 
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Kiba said:
SDs are zero actually with the new trickler... at least they're zero when I only shoot one shot over the chronograph so my spreadsheet looks better. :p

Don't see any changes on my chronograph or spreadsheet compared to the rotary trickler honestly, but it does save bench time as I don't have to deal with as many overcharges. The thing just works, and works consistently.

Another nice thing I've noticed is if you accidentally bump the end of the trickler tube with the powder cup while removing or replacing the cup it doesn't drop stray kernels all over the scale like the rotary trickler does.

Only slight concern I have is the drive roller arm tensioning spring rides on the motor shaft spacer, and eventually it might wear a groove in the spacer since the shaft and spacer rotate while the spring is fixed. It's a low speed device and if it ever does wear a groove it will probably take a very long time to do so, but I'm tempted to relocate the arm tensioning spring off the motor shaft spacer so I never have to worry about it wearing a groove. That's probably just my OCD worrying about a non-issue though.

While I've regretted ordering the initial release of other products and finding they aren't everything they promised they were, I don't regret this purchase. Be interesting to see if the next production batch is identical or if there's any small changes.
Click to expand...
You won’t see a change on the next batch. Some production changes to ease assembly but will be identical to the first batch in appearance and function. You don’t need the spring it’s just there so arm always goes back when you put the cup back. Rotation of the belt when running keeps the wheels in contact with each other. And it won’t ever wear a groove. One prototype unit has near two years of use on it.
 
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Ya. I think maybe he should get with Adam and see about offering a “V3E” or something.

With the v3 no longer in production, this is limited after a while.
 
Feniks Technologies said:
Ya. I think maybe he should get with Adam and see about offering a “V3E” or something.

With the v3 no longer in production, this is limited after a while.
Click to expand...
I don’t see Adam ever going down that road with his investment in the new V4 system. Ingenuity Precision is going to have cables made for those with a V4 that want to use the new trickler with that setup.
 
They need to source a motor it's stupid to sell a product that you have to use someone else's product to make it work. I'd like to have one but my AT burnt up with my house and I'm not buying someones used V2 or V3 at a jacked up price just to use this
 
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1bamashooter said:
They need to source a motor it's stupid to sell a product that you have to use someone else's product to make it work. I'd like to have one but my AT burnt up with my house and I'm not buying someones used V2 or V3 at a jacked up price just to use this
Click to expand...
I have one of these and bought just the motor, cable, and v3 board for $90. with just a lee powder measure and 2 cups that are matched in weight I can continually dump powder into cases. It is much faster than any auto trickler even without the auto throw. I had a v2 prior, it was painfully slow compared to the Ingenuity. The Ingenuity will almost never overthrow as well. To me it was worth the price.
 
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1bamashooter said:
They need to source a motor it's stupid to sell a product that you have to use someone else's product to make it work. I'd like to have one but my AT burnt up with my house and I'm not buying someones used V2 or V3 at a jacked up price just to use this
Click to expand...
This is to improve a product many people already own. Providing a motor at an additional charge when people who have the V2 and V3 can reuse their existing motor is just not needed. You won’t ever have a need for the old trickler do using the motor provided in the V2 and V3 kits makes sense. Now if you’re looking to use this without the old AutoTrickler electronics sadly that’s not feasible right now unless you want to spin it by hand.
 
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Kentucreed6 said:
I have one of these and bought just the motor, cable, and v3 board for $90. with just a lee powder measure and 2 cups that are matched in weight I can continually dump powder into cases. It is much faster than any auto trickler even without the auto throw. I had a v2 prior, it was painfully slow compared to the Ingenuity. The Ingenuity will almost never overthrow as well. To me it was worth the price.
Click to expand...
Where did you get those parts? I'd like to do this, I dont want to spend money on a V4 and then buy this too, if I can get the parts to automate the Ingenuity, I'm happy to throw the main throw with a manual powder throw and then put it on the scale and let the Ingenuity do the rest for me.
 
NICETRY said:
Should start shipping by end of July.
Click to expand...
Sweet! I can't wait! I am guessing one of you smart guys with 3d printers will be able to make wheels for any powder out there also. I would think my balls powders and h4350 will work well with the wheels that come with it now though, and that's all I use.
 
BuildingConceptsllc said:
Sweet! I can't wait! I am guessing one of you smart guys with 3d printers will be able to make wheels for any powder out there also. I would think my balls powders and h4350 will work well with the wheels that come with it now though, and that's all I use.
Click to expand...
The next batch you will have to request the disk with holes for ball powders. They will come with disks that will cover H4350 and some of the other powders that have longer kernels. Paul has tested just about every common powder at this point and has disks in production that should handle them.
 
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NICETRY said:
The next batch you will have to request the disk with holes for ball powders. They will come with disks that will cover H4350 and some of the other powders that have longer kernels. Paul has tested just about every common powder at this point and has disks in production that should handle them.
Click to expand...
It comes with 2 disks right? I guess one of them isn't for ball powder then? I just assumed the disks would be for ball powder and medium extruded like 4350 since those are so commonly used. Do you know when the ball powder disks will be available? I'm not sure if it's really feasible to switch back and forth from the ingenuity to the auto trickler bur assuming it isn't something that's fairly easy to do, the ingenuity won't really be able to be used until I have the ball powder disk then? Otherwise I'd only be able to use 4350 and wouldn't be able to go back to my autotrickler correct?
 
BuildingConceptsllc said:
It comes with 2 disks right? I guess one of them isn't for ball powder then? I just assumed the disks would be for ball powder and medium extruded like 4350 since those are so commonly used. Do you know when the ball powder disks will be available? I'm not sure if it's really feasible to switch back and forth from the ingenuity to the auto trickler bur assuming it isn't something that's fairly easy to do, the ingenuity won't really be able to be used until I have the ball powder disk then? Otherwise I'd only be able to use 4350 and wouldn't be able to go back to my autotrickler correct?
Click to expand...
You are correct on how Paul had shipped units with disks previously but it looks like the ball powder disk is not used much so he plans to offer another disk in the package for other extruded powders. You will still be able to order a disk for ball powder.
 
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NICETRY said:
You are correct on how Paul had shipped units with disks previously but it looks like the ball powder disk is not used much so he plans to offer another disk in the package for other extruded powders. You will still be able to order a disk for ball powder.
Click to expand...
So, ..... I emailed Paul last night, (it was after 10pm btw) and asked him about a spare cable and getting a motor from Adam so I wouldn't have to remove the one from my AT, and I also asked about the 7075 disk (ball powder). First of all he replied immediately, he confirmed that the ball powder disc will not come with the set going forward but that it will be available to order when we complete our orders for the ITrickler. He said it works very well too. We then went back and forth a few times and he helped me find the cable I was looking for and gave me a link. ( This was all very late at night and I never thought he'd even see it until the next day at best. )

He said that if all goes according to plan, he will be sending out emails to complete the orders for the IT at the end of this month.

I just thought his immediate helpful replies so late at night ad well as those updates were worth mentioning. Pretty cool.
 
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reubenski said:
Thanks for sharing that. I've preordered an IT. Was kinda wondering when he would be delivering.
Click to expand...

reubenski said:
Thanks for sharing that. I've preordered an IT. Was kinda wondering when he would be delivering.
Click to expand...
I figured others were as eager as I am to get it. If you pre ordered like we did, then it won't be much longer now!
 
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