Well, one of the guys that finished on the 4th place team just graduated our Scout Sniper course at Camp Geiger a couple classes ago, so we're claiming them....
USMC Beat by the Coast Guard and the 3 state National Guard Sniper teams
- Thread starter ArmyJerry
- Start date
Unfortunately for your narrative I dont believe the AMU had anything to do with this competition, these are operational units, in the past you were usually picked to represent you Battalion, then Division when it came to larger competitions, based on skill in navigation, movement, field craft, and shooting (and sometimes because nobody else wanted to do it). There are schools, use to be a few (divisional) but now down to one or two I believe. These are operational units just like the USMC fielded. The USMC had a mediocre event, no biggie, dont make excuses, we know the capabilities of the USMC.
But like you said I been out of the Army for 30 years this week so I am sure things have changed.
I do like the idea of new grads going head to head.
But like you said I been out of the Army for 30 years this week so I am sure things have changed.
I do like the idea of new grads going head to head.
You will find my comments on the ISC here:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/benning-sniper-competition-on-history-chan.6895308/
If you read them, you will find answers to most of the comments and questions made here.
Congrats to Kelly & Roque from 3/75 for the back-to-back wins. There have been a couple of other teams that also had back-to-back wins, so the question will be if they can pull off a "Hat Trick" next year to make it into the record books.
Sorry, but this event has little to NO credit as an actual "Best Int Sniper Competition" in my book, so you can take any or all of this for whatever it is worth!
Edit - to clarify, I would say that because:
- Everyone was forced to run schoolhouse issued weapons. For many of the teams, especially the foreign ones, this is obviously NOT a level playing field because they are forced to use a weapon system that is NOT their primary platform. Imagine what the teams from Sweden & Denmark may have done if they were running their organic weapon systems? Imagine what everyone could have done if they showed up with all of their kit setup and ready to roll!
- Looking at the teams participating there are a number of red flags. You had competitors from the Major Leagues, Farm Teams, College Programs, and maybe even a couple of High School teams. You had teams that spent the better part of a year preparing, you had teams that probably had 90-120 days notice and prep. You had teams where the playing field is in their backyard, and teams that had never seen the playing field prior to the match. You had returning teams, mixed in with first timers. Once again, NOT a level playing field.
Don't get me wrong, getting through that match, and coming out on top is an accomplishment. But once again, this is NOT like the Olympics where you are without question competing against the absolute best that every country can put forward.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/benning-sniper-competition-on-history-chan.6895308/
If you read them, you will find answers to most of the comments and questions made here.
Congrats to Kelly & Roque from 3/75 for the back-to-back wins. There have been a couple of other teams that also had back-to-back wins, so the question will be if they can pull off a "Hat Trick" next year to make it into the record books.
Sorry, but this event has little to NO credit as an actual "Best Int Sniper Competition" in my book, so you can take any or all of this for whatever it is worth!
Edit - to clarify, I would say that because:
- Everyone was forced to run schoolhouse issued weapons. For many of the teams, especially the foreign ones, this is obviously NOT a level playing field because they are forced to use a weapon system that is NOT their primary platform. Imagine what the teams from Sweden & Denmark may have done if they were running their organic weapon systems? Imagine what everyone could have done if they showed up with all of their kit setup and ready to roll!
- Looking at the teams participating there are a number of red flags. You had competitors from the Major Leagues, Farm Teams, College Programs, and maybe even a couple of High School teams. You had teams that spent the better part of a year preparing, you had teams that probably had 90-120 days notice and prep. You had teams where the playing field is in their backyard, and teams that had never seen the playing field prior to the match. You had returning teams, mixed in with first timers. Once again, NOT a level playing field.
Don't get me wrong, getting through that match, and coming out on top is an accomplishment. But once again, this is NOT like the Olympics where you are without question competing against the absolute best that every country can put forward.
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Did they have this event back around 2000? First time I heard about something like this was only a few years ago. Makes me always think I miss out on the fun shit.
Only thing I remember was the time we had Americans from Benning at Hammelburg in 2001 and thought we'd wreck them in a team competition.
If you were at Benning and went to Hammelburg in late 2001 or mid 2002 to the sniper school (for the 'cross training' or whatever its referred to that I think the Americans actually get a ribbon for?), there is a 99% chance that we have met.
Only thing I remember was the time we had Americans from Benning at Hammelburg in 2001 and thought we'd wreck them in a team competition.
If you were at Benning and went to Hammelburg in late 2001 or mid 2002 to the sniper school (for the 'cross training' or whatever its referred to that I think the Americans actually get a ribbon for?), there is a 99% chance that we have met.
Is there somewhere online that has a record of who went each year like the chart shows for the most recent?
Am curious that if this was going on, who, if anyone did the Bundeswehr/Germany send? If they did send someone in 01/02 (didn't hear a peep about it) I'd almost bet it was KSK as we were focused on rotating shooters to Kosovo. Then with the Bundeswehr reorganization that followed in pieces of 02/03/04 I'd be curious if that didn't fall through the cracks of that epic level of disaster.
Maybe the Army should start training the Marines
You do realize Marines don't like to play pussy games? Our only game we like to play is KILL any and all assholes that challenges us for real! The world rarely see our best and there's a reason.
2017 ISC - Germany came in 27th place.
Germany has had a team there most years, I don't ever remember them finishing in the top 3, but I could be wrong?
I was actually surprised that they did NOT have a team there this year.
Germany has had a team there most years, I don't ever remember them finishing in the top 3, but I could be wrong?
I was actually surprised that they did NOT have a team there this year.
I saw one of the "Baddest USMC Trigger Pullers" on the planet at the ISC a couple of years ago (and a few other matches). He is known to post around here, but I won't call him out!
Blahblahblah. We are the best blah blah blah. Butbutbutbut all the shit talking but can't back it up. The wiscomnsin NG just called your bluff jarhead. Go talk shitbto the naieve
Ummm, I'm qualified to comment because I get a share of the bill.
I’ve see you talk shit like 19 year old boot on here for years. I note that you dodged my question, is it because you are indeed 19 or you’re older, immature, completely lacking in any knowledge regarding actual snipers and pretty much anything not relating to...whatever you did in the Army, what 20-30-40 years ago? Don’t bother answering, I’m not wasting my time on an old never-was.[/QUOTE]
Old Jerry is so old he is somewhere in this photo, somewhere a little too close to that cloud.
D
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Just caught this trying to figure out what all of the Hub-Bub is about. Not that this has anything to do with it, but FYI
Actually the AMU has a long track record with the ISC on 2 fronts.
- Originally they were fielding teams, those teams racked up wins in 07, 08, 12, 13. Fairly predictable, if they compete they win.
- A couple of years ago they started helping to put the competition together. Once they did that, they stopped putting teams in as I am sure most would see it as a conflict/unfair advantage.
Per my previous comments in the other topic, there is pretty much ZERO rhyme or reason as to why any team is selected to compete. Some winning or top placing teams return, some do not. Some teams have a track record of competing, some have zero competition experience. Some teams spend months training up, some teams spend days training up. Like I have said before, you have High School teams showing up to compete against Major League teams, and as such it is NOT the Superbowl of Sniper Competitions that it is played up to be.
These things are training events really. You get to see how other guys do it, what gear and tips tricks etc are going on, if for a second you didn't think there is an AAR with the graders/observers you're wrong.
Full truth, yeah the marines got their ass beat, this is not the best of each service against the best, the marines shoot half as good as they think they do which puts them slightly above average, they tend to have thin skin not leather necks. I dont like the Mil doing televised programs like this, and as far as the comps go, we should not be mixing our guys with foreigners or even Canadian Princesses,,,,,oh wait a minute WTF I just noticed the USMC got beat by the Female Princess team out of Canada, shit that is worse than getting beat by the USCG SEAL Teams.
Well I still find it funny the marines got beat by the USCG then had to weave a story that all Coasties are now Seals as if that makes it all better..
Well I still find it funny the marines got beat by the USCG then had to weave a story that all Coasties are now Seals as if that makes it all better..
Actually that was the original intent when they started the ISC, but that has gone out the window, you can read my comments in the other topic which address that aspect:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/benning-sniper-competition-on-history-chan.6895308/
Hate to say it, but it is in limbo, it is not a true top level competition, and it is not a highly effective training event.
yep they got beat by the USCG which is not even part of the military, cant even qualify to be a department of the Navy, barely even a Law agency, really they are like an over funded Baywatch, so its kind of like the USMC got beat by Baywatch the Ugly version.
Well. This thread has been entertaining...
Gentlemen, this competition's results doesn't show a marksmanship deficiency, they show a training deficiency. TTP's change, and unfortunately, training materials/methods often lag behind. These competition scenarios are not what most are trained for out of the schoolhouse (remember your first comp? when you couldn't find your ass with both hands? I do.).
If you doubt this, ask any of the current and former snipers (Army, Marine or otherwise) how their first PRS style match went. If it is anything like the several I have known over the years it was more like "Holy shit I got my ass handed to me!" and "This is a type of shooting we are not trained to shoot; under time, in unprepared/abnormal positions with multiple targets."
This is beginning to change, but it is a slow process.
Dogma is a difficult bitch to train....
Gentlemen, this competition's results doesn't show a marksmanship deficiency, they show a training deficiency. TTP's change, and unfortunately, training materials/methods often lag behind. These competition scenarios are not what most are trained for out of the schoolhouse (remember your first comp? when you couldn't find your ass with both hands? I do.).
If you doubt this, ask any of the current and former snipers (Army, Marine or otherwise) how their first PRS style match went. If it is anything like the several I have known over the years it was more like "Holy shit I got my ass handed to me!" and "This is a type of shooting we are not trained to shoot; under time, in unprepared/abnormal positions with multiple targets."
This is beginning to change, but it is a slow process.
Dogma is a difficult bitch to train....
This is what happens when USMC 3rd string comes to play because 1st String and 2nd string teams are deployed
I doubt every unit can field their "best" teams every time...it's probably whoever is available. I'm just glad we're all on the same team and becoming more effective at killing our enemies. Pretty badass that Guard units are killing it!
This was a comp, not real life. The SEAL's placed near the bottom, but don't forget who was called to rescue Capt. Phillips, or to split Bin Laden's wig. I doubt Uncle Sam will be calling the Coast Guard to go after the next jihadi ringleader based off their placement in this comp!
This was a comp, not real life. The SEAL's placed near the bottom, but don't forget who was called to rescue Capt. Phillips, or to split Bin Laden's wig. I doubt Uncle Sam will be calling the Coast Guard to go after the next jihadi ringleader based off their placement in this comp!
SEALs got that call because it was a water insertion to be followed by an opposed boarding. And they schwacked Bin Laden because the division of labor in JSOC made Pakistan part of their responsibility. Honestly if they did that operation again I suspect they would have the Army do it, to keep book deals to a minimum.
Hi,
LOLOLOL this thread.......
Attempting to compare which branch, unit, etc is the best SO/SF/Etc via the results of a "sniper" competition is like comparing who is the best underwater demolition expert by having them compete in a swimming competition.
The ISC takes what in laymens terms is a singular skill set in the SO/SF/Etc deck of cards and has them compete in that skill set against each other. It by no means; either direct or indirect dictates or showcases how good those units, teams, etc are while operating under their entire mission statement umbrella.
For example the USCG Team "should" have dominated the aerial interdiction stage but they failed it completely IIRC.
Look to some of the larger International SO/SF competitions if you want to gauge how units, teams, etc stack up while competing and being tested under a more diverse range of their mission capabilities, not a singular skill set competition.
Sincerely,
Theis
LOLOLOL this thread.......
Attempting to compare which branch, unit, etc is the best SO/SF/Etc via the results of a "sniper" competition is like comparing who is the best underwater demolition expert by having them compete in a swimming competition.
The ISC takes what in laymens terms is a singular skill set in the SO/SF/Etc deck of cards and has them compete in that skill set against each other. It by no means; either direct or indirect dictates or showcases how good those units, teams, etc are while operating under their entire mission statement umbrella.
For example the USCG Team "should" have dominated the aerial interdiction stage but they failed it completely IIRC.
Look to some of the larger International SO/SF competitions if you want to gauge how units, teams, etc stack up while competing and being tested under a more diverse range of their mission capabilities, not a singular skill set competition.
Sincerely,
Theis
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Cant say im shocked. There are some really awesome shadow sniper teams throughout the world that dont get the credit they deserve. Some solid national guard teams as well.
That swat team is just hilarious. Good for them though. Goes to show you dont need millions of dollars to train shooters if you have the right instructors and skilled shooters. Shooting and surveillance /concealment isnt exactly "high tech". Its the same as it was since the 1900's. Just refined.
That swat team is just hilarious. Good for them though. Goes to show you dont need millions of dollars to train shooters if you have the right instructors and skilled shooters. Shooting and surveillance /concealment isnt exactly "high tech". Its the same as it was since the 1900's. Just refined.
It wasnt a "sniper" competition. It was a SNIPER competition. Isnt competitions a measurement of how good a particular individual, or team is compared to other competitors?
Hi,
Yea, sorry about that "". English is not one of my first 3 languages. ☺
Sincerely,
Theis
Comps like that are a very poor indicator of actual operational capability. Some of my friends competed, and did well. When asked what it was like, I was told everyone there was a fucking stud and good shooter. Those comps are about who sucks least at skills like call for fire, target detection at night, milling targets, and making hack times on runs and rucks. The targets are big and not particularly challenging.
To say home team advantage doesn't come into play is just being obstinate.
To say home team advantage doesn't come into play is just being obstinate.
funny I bet if the jarheads won it would be the toughest thing since the Chosen......
You talking about phirrip????I saw one of the "Baddest USMC Trigger Pullers" on the planet at the ISC a couple of years ago (and a few other matches). He is known to post around here, but I won't call him out!
The Marine Corps Times was brutal!
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/ne...Q7FOmBGYzuV02Q3NLgIDJgvND7PWQWI9VjMbyISPbSchc
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/ne...Q7FOmBGYzuV02Q3NLgIDJgvND7PWQWI9VjMbyISPbSchc
Ironically the USCG HITRON gunners aren’t snipers at all, they are basically door gunners with very specific training and trigger time. You can bet your ass that the next Coastie team going to the ISC will do a training rotation with HITRON before the big party at Benning.
Hi,
Is Dave Agata still instructing down at TACLET South and the Deployable Operation Group Teams?
Sincerely
Theis
To give you my time frame I trained with TACLET South when Chris Costa was with them, I probably trained with Chris (that and fifty cents will get me a can of Coke) but don’t remember names. Back then we never dreamed that the CG would ever get funding for a unit like Deployable Ops Grp even though we were telling anyone that would listen and a bunch that wouldn’t that we desperately needed just such a unit. We knew that the US was wide open for a 9/11 type attack on our maritime infrastructure but no one wanted to believe it could happen. All Al Quaeda had to do was detonate an LNG tanker in each of our major ports...
Damn guys give it up already. Some of these post are such a bunch of shit, and all your doing is undermining the hard work of a lot of good men. It doesn't matter what branch your in, what your "budget" is, or who won or lost, this is a chance to learn some new TTPs and take them back to your units to make everyone better. That is the point of this competition, same as the BRC. I had the chance to talk to some young snipers at the banquet after the comp this year that were stoked about some of the scenarios they were presented and being able to take them back to their units to better their training. That is what this is all about...
Further more the results of a comp like this has very little to do with determining the best snipers out there or the best sniper program out there. There are too many variables in a comp like this for that to even make since. This is about winning a comp, and sometimes you have to game it. In the real world if you try to game it bad things happen. We are all on the same team (MERICA!), and we should act like it. We are truly fortunate to have the best sniper schools (all of them!) in the world here in the U.S. and in such we turn out the best snipers in the world.
One more thing I HAVE to address:
There was some talk in this thread about budgets, something along the idea that it is very large, so budget isn't limiting the ability to train. If you think this is the case and you truly care about our warfighters (more specifically our snipers) I would politely ask you to remove your head from your ass and do some real world research. Start with the Army Sniper Association who sponsored the event, check with your local NG units about funding, if you know anyone in the military in a combat MOS ask them about funding and their gear, just do a little research, you may be shocked! There are units right now deploying with broken kit, only 1 working Kestrel for the whole sniper section, not given the funding needed to properly train up for deployments, etc. This is no joke, these men are going to war lacking in proper equipment.
Luckily there are organizations like the Army Sniper Association who fundraise to help buy equipment these guys need. There are other organizations like the ASA out there, but I have very close ties to the ASA and have been able to see what they do. So I do my best to support them and their mission. If you feel like learning more and maybe helping out the cause give them a look (it is a solid group of people):
https://www.armysniperassociation.org/
OH, SEMPER FI!
Further more the results of a comp like this has very little to do with determining the best snipers out there or the best sniper program out there. There are too many variables in a comp like this for that to even make since. This is about winning a comp, and sometimes you have to game it. In the real world if you try to game it bad things happen. We are all on the same team (MERICA!), and we should act like it. We are truly fortunate to have the best sniper schools (all of them!) in the world here in the U.S. and in such we turn out the best snipers in the world.
One more thing I HAVE to address:
There was some talk in this thread about budgets, something along the idea that it is very large, so budget isn't limiting the ability to train. If you think this is the case and you truly care about our warfighters (more specifically our snipers) I would politely ask you to remove your head from your ass and do some real world research. Start with the Army Sniper Association who sponsored the event, check with your local NG units about funding, if you know anyone in the military in a combat MOS ask them about funding and their gear, just do a little research, you may be shocked! There are units right now deploying with broken kit, only 1 working Kestrel for the whole sniper section, not given the funding needed to properly train up for deployments, etc. This is no joke, these men are going to war lacking in proper equipment.
Luckily there are organizations like the Army Sniper Association who fundraise to help buy equipment these guys need. There are other organizations like the ASA out there, but I have very close ties to the ASA and have been able to see what they do. So I do my best to support them and their mission. If you feel like learning more and maybe helping out the cause give them a look (it is a solid group of people):
https://www.armysniperassociation.org/
OH, SEMPER FI!
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Your right, maybe I was being a little harsh. No disrespect meant. I do absolutely love a little heckling from time to time, hell that's the basis of most conversations among friends...
Even though his KO hates him, he has a point. Remember any of you that have been through school and the moment it hit you that no one cared, nor did it really matter, as to how fantastic of a shot you were before you got there. Just because you can shoot little groups or PRS it up and shoot off a Home Depot bucket while hopping on one foot (probably STILL using a fucking pillow bag) doesn't translate well into real world applications where shooting is maybe 30% of the total equation.
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