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Rifle Scopes Validate a trick a optics engineer showed me.

dwtaylorpdx

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 26, 2012
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Portland OR
I had a optics engineer show me something at the range a long time ago...

This is just about seeing how a scope transmits light and color.

You look through the scope from the front about 2' away at a sheet of white paper.

The paper should look nice and white through the scope if it has good glass, since you
can see both the through the scope and around it, the paper should be equal or slightly
brighter through the scope if it has real good quality coatings.. I've tried this on a lot of
scopes, it seems to follow the general quality expected, IE A VX-8 Leupold is way brighter
than a 60 dollar bargain Bushnell, same with many other brands.

Any body else done this? Heard of it??
 
Well yea,, the thing of it is,, like I said, compare a couple scopes, see if you see the same thing,,
some of them definitely don't transfer light the same way, the bit I was noodling over is how
consistent is it,, I know that the diff between camera lenses is crazy based on maker and price,
But scopes seem to be more subtle,, unless you compare a really cheap one to a fairly expensive one..
The guy I had show me this was the guy that several scope companies,, send to Tokyo to choose their glass.
So he kinda knows his stuff..

When Ive been comparing the scopes, I try and compare a like to like, for instance 3-9 and set
both on 6 or middle of the adjustment scale.

Its an interesting concept, your not comparing accuracy of the grind very much or focus its purely a white field.
Some scopes goes way towards a green or yellow color some to a blue color. I assume its coating and glass composition.?

Its also interesting to compare two of the same scope in the store.. Occasionally I've
spotted real issues looking through them backwards like dirt in the insides.. or shiny spots in the internal coating.

:) all about figuring out the technology..
 
Honestly, and I mean no disrespect, but sounds like nonsense.

Honestly, and I mean no disrespect, I love how we just share unqualified opinions these days.

I mean we got people that don't no dick about what's being discussed just pipin up because they have an internet connection..... and I hear ya. What were we gonna do if you'd just thought "I don't know anything about this.....I should just not talk.".....well, we'll never know.

What he's describing is a sort of poor mans white balance you could use in a store or at a range or really anywhere you have a nice uniformly white surface to look at.

Is literally the same way that high end cameras are calibrated before use. You know....those things that are designed to transmit light as efficiently And color as accurately as possible in order to better recreate an image.

Had never thought of this OP, thanks for sharing. Great trick we can use basically anywhere in order to compare and contrast anything we get our paws on.

Appreciated.

 
Honestly, and I mean no disrespect, I love how we just share unqualified opinions these days.

I mean we got people that don't no dick about what's being discussed just pipin up because they have an internet connection..... and I hear ya. What were we gonna do if you'd just thought "I don't know anything about this.....I should just not talk.".....well, we'll never know.

What he's describing is a sort of poor mans white balance you could use in a store or at a range or really anywhere you have a nice uniformly white surface to look at.

Is literally the same way that high end cameras are calibrated before use. You know....those things that are designed to transmit light as efficiently And color as accurately as possible in order to better recreate an image.

Had never thought of this OP, thanks for sharing. Great trick we can use basically anywhere in order to compare and contrast anything we get our paws on.

Appreciated.

Jeez, not sure what you're upset about. I was not being rude to the OP Alamo. I was just telling him that this "method" he was talking about sounded like nonsense and that the guy that showed it to him isn't making sense.

Ok let's begin with white balance and the human ability to see it. Unless you are trained at understanding the relationship between colors, and how our mind perceives color and the constant shift to 5500k, it is literally impossible to see if the color balance is on. (I spent a couple of years as a color dark room printer, the old school kind that uses YGCBMR color filters to adjust color. I literally made my living on color balance) So looking through something and comparing the color of something white between two scopes only tells you how much more one scope skews towards a part of the YGCBMR spectrum as opposed to the other scope. At least that's what I can think of, unless i'm missing something, which is entirely possible given the multitude of variables here and the fact that i didn't listen to their actual conversation. And the only way to do this is in a controlled environment.

So putting a scope 2' away from white paper, is only going to tell what I just described. It won't give us any real understanding of color fidelity, resolution, contrast, flare control... and sure as heck wont tell us if the scope can track worth a damn. So no, this "method" will tell us pretty much nothing useful about a scope.

As for high end cameras being calibrated with white before use, not sure where you saw someone do this, but they are a hack. No one that knows anything about photography would purposely use a white surface to calibrate off of unless they had absolutely no choice and were going to manually adjust from there. There are too many reasons to list, but the first is that, white is not always white, second, that white, depending on the surrounding environment, may be too bright for your digital sensor to handle. As it's clipping, you're getting invalid information and an incorrect white balance. What professionals calibrate to are 18% Gray cards or a McBeth(not sure if they still call it this) color chart.

And as for "those things that are designed to transmit light...", yep have some experience with them given that I used to, as part of my job, test lenses for a living. I probably should have qualified myself better for the OP but it seemed like too much to type so let me do it now. I have a degree in commercial photography (although it was a long time ago). I spent 10+ years in advertising and film production, and 5 years as a high end retoucher and finisher. I'm certainly no scout sniper or professional firearms guy, but I do know optics (from a user standpoint, not engineer) as I literally built a life using them and comparing them.

In my spare time, I purchase rifle scopes and compare them side by side because it's a fun hobby.

So... back to what i originally said...

With regards to the "engineer's method", no disrespect but sounds like nonsense. ;)
 
So looking through something and comparing the color of something white between two scopes only tells you how much more one scope skews towards a part of the YGCBMR spectrum as opposed to the other scope.

Agreed on many counts.....

Hence the term "poor man's white balance," as a way to compare and contrast anything we have in front of us. I didn't say anything about true white....only that it was a quick and dirty way to determine preference in a Pepsi challenge scenario.

I care very little about accurate color reproduction in a scope, much more about a color spectrum that aids my eye in the discernment of detail (a subjective pursuit I'm sure you'll agree.)

And your not the only one who still calls them Macbeth color charts.


And I wasn't being rude either....after all....I said "no offence." ;)


 
I am not sure how useful this test is, to be honest, when used with a DVO.

When used with a camera, it is a different ballgame.

With a riflescope, you can get some idea on the colorcast, vignetting and symmetry, but that is largely it. Keep in mind that this is heavily dependent on what kind of ambient lighting you have and on paper reflectance and transparency. For this you need tick sheets of very mate paper, i.e. it has to be a very diffuse reflector. Any sort of specular reflectance will screw this up.

I'd be a little leary making too many conclusions based on this, but there are some you can make if you know what to look for.

Generally speaking, you can tell the difference between Barska and Tangent Theta without looking at a sheet of paper.

ILya
 
Its interesting to look, I've compared 2 of the same model this way and one was obviously drastically brighter,,
the scopes were within a couple hundred of the same serial number, its just an interesting telltale, after all for
the most part we all look at them similarly, look through them at something in the store,, a lot of word of mouth,
and just faith in the brands..

Looking though optics backwards is also just a good way to check for dust, rough reticles, and even lens flaws..

Full disclosure,, my wife has assembled and inspected precision optics for about 20 years, for multiple manufacturers,
I take her when I'm ready to buy, she spots the really edge stuff, so far she's picked winners,, (Except for me.. LOL)
You oughta see the guy in the store when I ask him to bring out 5 or 6 of one model.. Then have my wife look at them..