Varget Flattening primers

[Modoc]

I just ran a ladder test last weekend with two different rifles and am seeing something odd.

Rifle #1: Sporterized Mauser '98, 308 Win, IMI barrel, Timiney trigger and a Leupold 3x9-40mm VXII

Load: R-P Brass (third loading), Win LR Primer, Barnes 150 gr. TTSX, and Varget

Rifle #2: Custom Sako 22-250, 1:12 twist unknown 1/2 round 1/2 octagon barrel, Timiney Trigger and a Leupold 3x9-40mm VXII

Load: R-P Brass (third loading), Win LR Primer, Barnes 30gr. Varmint Grenade, and Varget.

Temps were in the Mid 90's at approx 3200'

Both ladder tests were done in 0.3 grain increments from Min to Max from the Barnes loading manual. All but the first cartridge shot from each showed a flat primer with square edges, but not filling the radius on the primer pocket. When each rifle was shot again with either factory ammo or other hand loads, the primers still had the radius around the outer edge. For the 308, this was factory Rem. Core lokt 150gr and Sierra 150gr Game kings with 42gr of IMR 3031. The 22-250 was using Hornady V-Max with a ladder test of RL-15.

There was no heavy bolt lift or cratering of the primers through the sessions.

I can't take any pictures because being pressed for time, I have already re-sized them before thinking about asking here.

 

[Temp9]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

I think it's fine. Hard to say for sure without seeing pics, but Winchester and Federal both have soft primer cups. They tend to flatten very easily. As long as it's not excessive, and there are no other pressure signs, I think you're okay.

 

[George63]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

if it makes you nervous you can go to CCI military primers, hard cup without being a magnum

 

[hdbiker1]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

CCI military primers do have a harder cup, but they are also hotter. They instruct to use magnum data, so in essence a magnum primer. At least that's the way I read it.

 

[RyeDaddy]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

Excessive headspace can cause this condition you're seeing as well. If you bump the shoulders on your brass too far you will see this alot.

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

I never use Winchester primers as a pressure indicator. I've seen some look like they were part of the case head with loads far from max on with normal ambient temps.

I've been told by numerous BR shooters that Bolt Lift is what they use. If it STARTS to get a little stiff, back down. I also watch for the slightest "half moon mark" from my Remington Bolt ejector.

 

[stranded]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

This^^^. I think win. primers also seat deeper in pocket causing them to back out to the bolt head. Really noticable in win brass which seems to come with loose primer pockets.

 

[rusty815]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

Primers are a terrible way to check for pressure, a large firing pin can cause the primers to flatten by striking alone (happens to my rifle even with very mild loads), same thing with cratering. As others have said, use bolt lift and ejector marks to check pressure, if I hit one of these two signs, I simply lower the charge by a half a grain and set that as the max for my rifle.

 

[l115a3]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

You should try another brand like CCI BR2.


Many reloader happy with combination of Varget and CCI BR2.

 

[stranded]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

All good advice. Use other pressure signs for max loads. No need to change components.

 

[Modoc]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

Now that I got the other fires out....

Just finished prepping and priming 200+ .308 for SWMBO to shoot. I will use out this box (1000) primers and see what "newer" Winchesters do, then go to a different primer if it still bugs me. This current thousand is in the old white box with Red lettering, not the orange and white or the current blue.

The powder may also change too, because the 7mm-08 and 22-250 are really liking RL15. The 22-250 gave me a dime sized group at 100 m in a 0.9gr spread doing a ladder test. It would be nice to just have to get one powder for several rifles.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

"Excessive headspace can cause this condition you're seeing as well. If you bump the shoulders on your brass too far you will see this alot."

Roger that. In fact I supect proably 80% - or more - of all 'flat' primers are due to excessive headspace rather than over pressure.

 

[Modoc]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

Just got the Stony Point/Hornady headspace gauge. Current die settings are bumping the shoulder back 0.005" from fired. Is this considered too much? I am going to be balancing accuracy with reliability since these are hunting loads, not bench rest loads.

 

[RyeDaddy]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Modoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just got the Stony Point/Hornady headspace gauge. Current die settings are bumping the shoulder back 0.005" from fired. Is this considered too much? I am going to be balancing accuracy with reliability since these are hunting loads, not bench rest loads.</div></div>

My opinion is you are bumping them too far. At .005" bump I got flat primers on just about everything. In my semiauto I bump .002" just for peace of mind, and have 100% reliabilty, in a bolt action I bump .001" with NO problems.

Edit: This may or may not be causing your primer flattening, but you certainly shouldn't need to bump that far, it won't help your loads in any way, reliability or otherwise.

 

[targaflorio]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

Not bad. I shoot for .002" for a bolt gun and .003-.005" for a gas gun.

 

[RoosterShooter]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

Load either CCI #34 or CCI BR2. Both of those have the hardest primer cups on the planet.

 

[RyeDaddy]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RoosterShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Load either CCI #34 or CCI BR2. Both of those have the hardest primer cups on the planet.

</div></div>

FWIW, my comments above are all based on my use of CCI BR-2 primers. I rarely use anything else.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Varget Flattening primers

<span style="font-style: italic">"Current die settings are bumping the shoulder back 0.005" from fired. Is this considered too much?"</span>

I have no idea what anyone else considers "too much" and don't care but considering the fired shoulder location is at least a tho shorter than the chamber there is no reason to set them any further back at all for a bolt gun.

Even IF it were due to excess pressure the problem would be too large a charge, not the use of Varget, as such.