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Varget?

BANG...ping

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 15, 2017
266
148
Hi everyone,
I'm new to reloading and need some help. I have a 6.5 Creedmor and will be shooting 140 ELD's. I see that numerous people use Varget for this cartridge. However, on the Hodgdon website 6.5 Creedmor is not on the list of recommended cartridges. Why do people use it if the manufacturer does not recommend it?


 
Varget is too fast a powder for heavy bullets like the 140’s. You’ll see a lot of pressure before you get the velocity of numerous other powers. I have used varget with 123’s and 130’s though.
 
I would suggest you try IMR 4451 as a substitute for H4350. It's easily available and it's fairly temp stable, good but not as good as H4350 on temp stability. I worked up loads with IMR 4451 and my best load was Hodgdon cases, CCI BR2 primers, Hornady 140 ELDM bullets, and 41.8 grains of IMR 4451. That gave an avg. velocity of 2703 out of a 24" Bartlein barrel, which was just a bit slower than my best H4350 load. Accuracy with IMR 4451 was excellent, as good as H4350.
 
As previously mentioned, there are some better options out there. I've had great experience with Reloder 16 (as many others have); temperature stability of H4350 and ~100+ ft/s faster. I believe H4831sc and IMR 4451 are good options as well, but do not have the temperature stability that RL-16 or H4350 does.
 
I've used a few lbs of IMR 4451 in 6.5x47 as well as a couple lbs of H4350. If you properly develop a load for your 6.5CM with 4451, I guarantee you won't see any meaningful difference between it and H4350.

As for temp stability, based on what I've seen and read, I think the jury is still out on which is more temp stable and by how much. Either way, both are great powders. Almost like arguing which is better for hunting, .270 or 30-06.

Load Development did show this powder to have very low St Dev's and wide accuracy windows/nodes.

My best advice to you, BANG...ping, stay away from Varget in your CM, especially with those 140's. IMR 4451 or Reloader 16 would be perfect for your needs. I think you would find H4831sc just a tad too slow. The CM was designed around the idea of pushing a 140 with 4350 rate powder. No need to reinvent the wheel, the work has already been done for you.

Good Luck and enjoy your new hobby!
 
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I have used Ramshot Hunter, H-4831 (and H-4831SC), and currently prefer H-4350. I stepped away from Hunter because it was harder and harder to find anywhere locally, but as a propellant, it's very good for the .260 (and I assume 6.5CM). The H-4831's are very accurate, but require larger charges, and velocities tend to be lower. A good strategy with them is to use a longer barrel to make up the velocity. The H-4350 does it all, but it's also very much the most popular powder, and goes out of stock fairly quickly.

Greg
 
I think the thing to understand about the 6.5CM may have some relationship to my own history with the .260.

When I went to my first LR comp in 2002, I was shooting the .260, and was still quite a ways from understanding how best to handload for it, while also dealing with pressure problems in a big way using VV N-140 with Lapua 139 Scenars. Over time, it became obvious that N-140 was too fast and didn't have great temperature stability at the time, and also that the 139 Scenar tended to run higher pressures than its 140gr, and later 142gr brethren. My load (for a 28" barrel) evolved to be 43.8gr of H-4350 and the 142SMK or 140 A-Max. This came after extensive experimentation with Ramshot Big Game, and later, Hunter came along and was better. But as I said above, Ramshot powders were really scarce and soon I was unable to keep enough in stock to fuel my shooting activities. Folks here ordained H-4350 as the goto powder, and they were right. Experiments with H-4831(and -SC) showed better accuracy, but not such great velocity; and I dropped the project. Hindsight strongly suggests that could have been a mistake, and I will probably resume that experiment some day.

We were doing OK in comp with the .260 until the 6.5-284 dawned upon the field of competition. Dubbed the 'Fag Mag', it just blew away all the competition, and since it was also a barrel burner, it shifted the game closer to being an arms race with folks who had more money being in the driver seat. Not having more money, I was essentially done with LR comp. The lesson was that the .260 was good, but something better required more case capacity.

Then the 6.5 Creedmore was released. It had exceptional backing from Hornady, and gun makers learned the lesson that Remington didn't, they needed to put more support behind their new chamberings. The 6.5CM thrived on all that Mother's milk, and today we see it dominating the 6.5mm scene.

But that doesn't mean it's a better LR round than the .260. Going back to the case capacity lesson, more capacity was needed, but the 6.5CM went the other way, and bullet for bullet, it achieves less velocity than the 260 in equal length barrels in a game where less velocity is not such a great idea.

Well, I came to a realization about that, based on my own conclusion that as long as the bullet arrives ontarget at 1300fps or greater, velocity isn't king, wind skills is the real king. So less velocity is OK, IF you have the wind skills; and this brings my thinking back to H-4831. At this point, it's just thinking, but i plan to follow it up this coming season. My 28' barrel is ideally suited for that powder as well.

Now, then, about that Varget. When we stepped up to the LR plate for the first time with the 260 in 2002, we asked the old hands what was the best load for the .260. They'd all say 34-36 grains of Varget with a 140gr bullet. Hmm, interesting. Looking at the current Hornady manual, they are posting loads between 32.7gr and 36.4gr of Varget with their 140-143gr class of bullets for the 6.5CM. So maybe Varget isn't so far out of the race after all.

Greg
 
Hi everyone,
I'm new to reloading and need some help. I have a 6.5 Creedmor and will be shooting 140 ELD's. I see that numerous people use Varget for this cartridge. However, on the Hodgdon website 6.5 Creedmor is not on the list of recommended cartridges. Why do people use it if the manufacturer does not recommend it?

I can’t speak to using Varget in the CM but it is my preferred powder in the 6.5x47 with any bullet weight up to and including 140s. When I was shooting the .260, the powders that worked the best for me were 4350 and 4831sc. With the CM being closer to powder capacity to the .260 than the x47, I’d probably be looking at the 4350 to 4831 burn rate before I tried Varget. Maybe Varget with 120s. Luckily we have enough good powders in the 4350 burn rate range nowadays to where we don’t have to rely exclusively on H4350 anymore.

John