Rifle Scopes Vortex GEN 3 Razor Price increase.

#101
LR1845 said:
I bet Vortex is watching this thread closely and I hope they are listening.
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Vortex has already replied to this thread and said that customer retail prices were not going up. Ok, they didn’t raise MAP but I’m still throwing the BS flag on this as prices are certainly going up and this is entirely foreseeable if you increase MSRP.
 
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#103
Baron23 said:
Vortex has already replied to this thread and said that customer retail prices were not going up. Ok, they didn’t raise MAP but I’m still throwing the BS flag on this as prices are certainly going up and this is entirely foreseeable if you increase MSRP.
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Anyone who's ever worked in the retail side of this industry can attest to this being true.
 
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#106
Birddog6424 said:
Well i guess we're tumbling down this rabbit hole..

Making statements of this nature just doesnt make them true. There's tons of people on this forum and others that pick the XTRIII over LOW optics and the MK5. I've compared to the MK5 dozens of times, glass is a wash one way or the other. But FOV and sight picture is owned by the Burris. MK5s are a tunnel in comparison. And the Burris is $700 or more less. There are multitudes of people who have come to the same conclusion and said as much on the forums these last 4 years. No brainer.

You can't acuse the masses of being wrong and being the only one who is right. You can't argue against results. Anyone who has paid any attention at all can plainly see It's an extremely popular scope that overwhelmingly gets positive feedback from the people who have them. Make a thread asking about sub $2k scopes, and someone or multitudes of someone's will recommend the XTRIII every time. When you are only person making these statements in the face of so many people saying the opposite, don't you ever stop to think that maybe you're wrong?

And here's the facts guys, irrefutable. Burris sold more XTRIIIs in 2023 than they ever have before. It's been out 4 years now. That's not the sales performance of an overrated, underperforming product.

Ok. I won't keep contributing to this derail 😉
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Some of the things you post are just so funny. Why would you keep comparing the same scope dozens of times if you already have established its superiority? I’ve owned 5 3.6-18’s and 3 5-25’s and they’re not a “tunnel” to look through. That’s bullshit. They don’t have the largest FOV out there but it’s not tight and they have a nice full sight picture in the ocular and you really see no tube at all. They really have a great image and for a short design scope the 3.6-18 is one of the best I’ve used as far as image quality and DOF goes which is normally a sacrifice in those designs. I just recently got the first MK5 that I didn’t like and that was because of the reticle, the PR1 is pure ass.

I just find it strange that this scope that is so popular that they apparently have no issues selling in large numbers just got the price dropped significantly yet again which has happened multiple times since they released. That’s not how it works when sales are good, why would they sell them for several hundred $$ less than they could? Charity? They were over $1500 street price a couple years ago and I just paid less than $800 delivered for one.
 
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#108
DeathBeforeDismount said:
After playing with one and popping the turret off.. you definitely get what you pay for. Have seen Chinese scopes from Walmart with better turret designs.
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Leupolds locking turret is a very simple non complicated design compared to some zero stops. It’s not going to impress you with clutches and stuff but it’s simple and it works.

A friend who checked them out at SHOT said the turrets didn’t feel quite as good as the MK5’s though which is a little disappointing.
 
#109
Yea the turrets did not feel good. I don't even like the mk5 and it's turrets but this felt even cheaper. When you pop the turret off it's a big slot for a screwdriver to adjust. The zero stop is also absolute so you can't go below zero like most optics.

IMO the mk5 is really a $1k scope and this should be like $500. Guys obviously win with it and they sell a ton of them but next to something like the gen 3 razor or even a k624 they look and feel like dogshit to me. Almost every demo gun at matches has a mk5 and they all feel cheap. The shooting experience with TT, ZCO and the razor is just so much nicer. Bigger fov, better glass, excellent turrets, solid build quality,ect.

The mk4hd wasn't mounted to a gun so it's hard to judge the glass quality but I'm sure it's close to a mk5 based on guys who have been testing them.
 
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#110
That’s disappointing about the feel, I don’t care about what’s underneath since they work and don’t raise up when you adjust. Not being able to have .5 or so below zero or something you can set where you want isn’t ideal and not my preference but it never bothered me on any of mine.

I don’t think anyone is comparing MK5’s to a ZCO or TT and they’re certainly not on that level but they also cost half (or less) than what those do. I’ve never had or tried out a G3 6-36 so I can’t comment on how those compare but I’ve owned a K624 and I’d take a MK5 every time over one even of they were the same price, mine sucked ass. I also know a guys that went from Kahles to the MK5’s and swear by them, @Sixfivesavage is one of them. IMO they’re better optics overall than the ATACR’s I’ve owned, even the 4-16x42 which I really like.

My biggest complaint with them is the reticles. The PR2 isn’t bad but just became available in the 3.6-18 but other than that they all kind of suck. The illuminated T3 has been the best option IMO for all around use and when you could get those for $2K or a little under it was worth it but at current pricing they’re just not worth it unless you get their mil/le pricing and even then it’s questionable. For typical discount through vendors you can buy a lightly used ZCO for about $500 more. At $1500 for non illuminated and $2K for illuminated they’re a good buy but that’s not possible anymore without mil/le pricing.
 
#111
Yea used zco prices are really hard to pass up for value. I went from zco/tt to gen 3 and you really aren't giving up much performance or build quality wise mo. There are features I like on all 3 but nothing is a deal breaker on any of them and why I consider them all alphas. Price difference was huge however. If a gen 3 moves up closer to 2500+ street price then sub 3k used zcos start to look real real good. 30% map certs from EO still get you one for 2100 and that's the deal to beat until vortex does another 55% which is about the same price. Vortex will need to do like 60-65% off to actually sell them. You can also get them for about 2400 with a prs discount ( membership is 40 bucks). Not sure what the plan is going forward but optics seem to be going to up in price, not down which has been the trend for a while now
 
#112
I’m sure the G3’s are nice based on reports but I just don’t have any interest in a 3lbs optic which has always been what kept me away from the Razors although I did try a gen 1 5-20 and a gen 2 4.5-27. I’m actually considering selling a 37oz optic for something else because even that I find to be portly and makes the rifle it’s on not balance well.
 
#113
Birddog6424 said:
I dont mean the MK5 tunnel, they are tunnel'ish and narrow when you become used to looking through a scope with nice FOV and sight picture. And I don't keep comparing them for myself, I keep comparing them because I love the look on the faces of those Leupy owners when they see how good the XTRIII looks in comparison 🤣

I looked into this "price drop" you're talking about. The XTRIII dropped in price when production went to the Phillipines. According to Burris folks, initially was $1200 MSRP for the illuminated 18x. It's $1500 MSRP now. So I'm not following...
Yes, it was more when they made it in Greeley, but the very first production models out of the Phillipines released in early 2022, they were less. The only price drop according to the people who make and sell them was when production moved two years ago. What the retailers sell them for is out of Burris' hands so long as they don't violate the MAP agreement.

So again, although you keep trying, I don't understand your argument. You don't have many folks agreeing with you. If I wanted to take the time I can find a metric crap ton of positive posts for the XTRIII.

So there's been no price drop on the illuminated XTRIII. Best sales year ever 2023.
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I responded to your PM as well but the prices have absolutely dropped on both the XTR3i’s and the Pros over the last couple months. The MSRP was definitely higher on them when I looked before I ordered one in November. Now magically all of them are listing and selling for less. That doesn’t add up. Cost and MAP are both based on MSRP across the retail industry and something clearly changed but you’re here saying it didn’t.

Here’s two receipts where I purchased the same exact thing. The one for $1106 on 11/18/23 and then one for $799 on 1/27/24. Both times all those drop shippers had roughly the same pricing. Also both times the pros were different pricing, in November $18XX was the lowest you can get a pro for and now you can get them for a little over $1400 before shipping. These places all operate at a couple percent over cost, so how could have prices dropped 30% yet there’s supposedly no change in pricing at the manufacturer level?

I’m not complaining because now I think these things are priced where they should for their performance, I’m just pointing out that pricing has changed and in the opposite direction that it normally does and in the opposite direction it should be if sales are so great.
 

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#116
Rob01 said:
Also one of those is listed as illuminated and one is not so the original USA non illuminated would be more true?
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If you’re referring to my invoices they’re both the Illuminated model # 201204. Identical optic just 3 months apart and 30% less.

According to what has been posted here the non illuminated US version would cost more yet they been getting blown out at retailers for $800-$850 for well over a year now. Pricing just recently went down at retailers on the illuminated versions. I was looking at the pricing on the pros again at the end of December and $1850-$1900 was the least you could get one for OTD and now you can get them delivered for under $1450.
 
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#117
Birddog6424 said:
Yes, they had to discount the US versions, they 18x illuminated version was $1000 to $1100 right at the outset in May of 2022. Initially the non-illuminated went on sale for $995 at Cameraland. I imagine Burris discounted those to retailers so they could blow them out.
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Hey man, I know you love burris and all. But there are some on this forum that regularly pop up in literally every thread about their pet gear…suppressors, scopes, actions, etc and religiously tout their favs.

It’s almost like they have a saved google search with alerts or something.

After a while, it starts to feel shill-y, ya know? Even if you’re not one.

You are definitely at that point.
 
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#118
Birddog6424 said:
I'm not so sure the XTRIII fits in that category 😉

Sales get better every year, and they've dropped their prices on it to make sure it's always a great value, not increased them.

A driving factor in moving production to the Phillipines was that they couldn't meet demand in Greeley. The Burris facility isn't huge. With the production of the XTR Pro, Steiner T6Xi, and some other items in house, they didn't have the bandwidth to continue to crank out XTRIIIs stateside.

But not to hijack your post or this thread. It's a Vortex thread. But I do get your point. I think a lot of scopes are the new hot, bright, and shiny when they release. Its hard for a product to sustain that. Especially as new products release every year. The new MK4 is a perfect example of releasing with a lot of hype. I see people recommending them already when no one has ever even had one in their hand before.
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I had to go back to see what actually got you in here chest pounding for Burris this time and as usual it’s because someone said the slightest non positive thing about and Burris product and I find this little bit of information. So which is it?

Birddog6424 said:
I dont mean the MK5 tunnel, they are tunnel'ish and narrow when you become used to looking through a scope with nice FOV and sight picture. And I don't keep comparing them for myself, I keep comparing them because I love the look on the faces of those Leupy owners when they see how good the XTRIII looks in comparison 🤣

I looked into this "price drop" you're talking about. The XTRIII dropped in price when production went to the Phillipines. According to Burris folks, initially was $1200 MSRP for the illuminated 18x. It's $1500 MSRP now. So I'm not following...
Yes, it was more when they made it in Greeley, but the very first production models out of the Phillipines released in early 2022, they were less. The only price drop according to the people who make and sell them was when production moved two years ago. What the retailers sell them for is out of Burris' hands so long as they don't violate the MAP agreement.

So again, although you keep trying, I don't understand your argument. You don't have many folks agreeing with you. If I wanted to take the time I can find a metric crap ton of positive posts for the XTRIII.

So there's been no price drop on the illuminated XTRIII. Best sales year ever 2023.
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It’s was more, then less, then more, now less?

And yes we’re “arguing” over price (I’m not so it’s interesting you feel that way about this) because what you’re saying not only contradicts the pricing over the last few months at dealers, but also yourself.

So in the same thread we’ve got someone from Vortex telling us their prices haven’t actually gone up which they actually have and then we’ve got someone from Burris telling us that prices have done both I guess and just talking around whichever point is more convenient to be pro Burris. This shit is comical.
 
#119
carbonbased said:
Hey man, I know you love burris and all. But there are some on this forum that regularly pop up in literally every thread about their pet gear…suppressors, scopes, actions, etc and religiously tout their favs.

It’s almost like they have a saved google search with alerts or something.

After a while, it starts to feel shill-y, ya know? Even if you’re not one.

You are definitely at that point.
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Like other people posting about Christensen Arms, Burris XTR2s, and AGM all the time.
 
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#120
Birddog6424 said:
Good Lord dude. Case in point.

I told you in PMs I don't follow pricing much. I called a guy at Burris to see if I could figure out what you were talking about. I posted what I found out above. Burris did NOT lower their prices. Their MSRP actually went up at some point between the time they released in 22 and now. I don't know when. But you can buy them for less money now versus release. So you pay less, right? You've said so yourself. But Burris has not lowered their price, it's a retailer thing. They can sell for what they want. And yes, Burris had their best year ever in XTRIII sales in 2023. No matter what you say or do, you can't change that.

I dont know what else to say or do with you. I'm done being dragged into this. This just isn't important enough to keep arguing with you about it.
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That’s not “sticking to truth and facts” if your make statements and then say something else just because you don’t follow pricing much. So you say you don’t follow it but you posted what you did previously.

I’m in the retail business and know how pricing works and it doesn’t add up that Burris hasn’t dropped their pricing which you are both saying has and hasn’t happened but you don’t actually really know.

You’ve called me dishonest recently in another thread where I said something not positive about Burris, but then you come in here with what you’ve stated as fact and get called out on it when you contradict yourself and bow out with the excuse that you don’t keep up with pricing. Come on, I know you can shill better than this.
 
#121
I mean dude is sponsored by Burris I'm sure part of the agreement is outreach and talking to people about the product. Trying to help people out and provide up to date info about the product is expected. If you ever met him he's a cool dude and has done alot for the sport including regional director. I've never heard another shooter say a bad thing about Ja, which is pretty rare actually. We bitch about everything and everyone. Nothing he is saying ain't true either. Yea he obviously likes the products but he also gives honest and realistic advice and opinion. Some people just take that the wrong way for whatever reason.
 
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#122
I don’t think anyone else can see the PM that’s not in it, but yes I PMed you asking you what the deal is with this new pricing drop from dealers in the last few months and you responded with basically the same stuff you’ve said here and I said basically the same thing.

What’s your point? It doesn’t change the fact that something is absolutely up with pricing which is evident by the recent pricing and you made contradictory statements, one before I PMed you to ask and then after and then bowed out on the excuse that you don’t keep up with pricing.
 
#127
redneckbmxer24 said:
Some of the things you post are just so funny. Why would you keep comparing the same scope dozens of times if you already have established its superiority? I’ve owned 5 3.6-18’s and 3 5-25’s and they’re not a “tunnel” to look through. That’s bullshit. They don’t have the largest FOV out there but it’s not tight and they have a nice full sight picture in the ocular and you really see no tube at all. They really have a great image and for a short design scope the 3.6-18 is one of the best I’ve used as far as image quality and DOF goes which is normally a sacrifice in those designs. I just recently got the first MK5 that I didn’t like and that was because of the reticle, the PR1 is pure ass.

I just find it strange that this scope that is so popular that they apparently have no issues selling in large numbers just got the price dropped significantly yet again which has happened multiple times since they released. That’s not how it works when sales are good, why would they sell them for several hundred $$ less than they could? Charity? They were over $1500 street price a couple years ago and I just paid less than $800 delivered for one.
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Because thats how you gain market share in a competitive market. Lower the price and move more product volume, at a slightly lower profit margin. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
 
#128
This thread is a gift that keeps on giving.

The repeated comments on this thread and others about Gen3s not being worth it at their street price of ~$2500 are interesting. It’s still cheaper than a used ZCO or ATACR 7-35, and comes with the best warranty you can ask for. I’d like to know what the people calling it and $1800 or $2000 optic think is better at the price point, and I’d bet they’re in the minority.

As a longtime Vortex hater, it’s still a clear winner to me.

I’m also curious why the guy who likes Mk5s more than XTR IIIs keeps buying the significantly worse model. It’s a pretty strong consensus that the 5.5-30 is the choice. @redneckbmxer24 have you tried the 5.5-30? I have no dog in this fight as I don’t own either scope, just curious.
 
#129
It's really a 3500 optic when compared to a 4000 zco and a 5000 TT. It's a better optic than anything else comparable( lrp5, s&b, 735 atacr, 525i). There is a 4th ( minox zp5) but their customer support and warranty process is so fucking bad they aren't even a consideration.

The mrsp on them is absolutely fucking ridiculous but thats how vortex wants to play it with their discount program and probally accounting rules to maximize "losses" to avoid taxes.

But it's an excellent scope. The issue is once you go north of 2500 for one, you are getting into used zco and TT prices. All 3 are alphas but those 2 do some thing better and alot of people find it to be worth the additional cost. I wouldn't pay more than 2100 for a gen 3 razor since you can get one for that with eo cert.

2k for a gen 3 new/used
3-3.2k for a used zco
3.3-3.6k for used tangent
I don't think the 735TT is worth the premium ATM. Probally 4500 used.

Thats the fair market.
 
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#130
HaydenLane said:
I’m also curious why the guy who likes Mk5s more than XTR IIIs keeps buying the significantly worse model. It’s a pretty strong consensus that the 5.5-30 is the choice. @redneckbmxer24 have you tried the 5.5-30? I have no dog in this fight as I don’t own either scope, just curious.
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I have not tried the 5.5-30, I was behind a 3.3-18 once. The 3.3-18 gets a lot of praise and my first order got cancelled by the retailer with no explanation even after I emailed to ask. I have no interest in a 30x magnification 35oz optic though, I’ll be trying this out on a 22 so the additional so the additional elevation will be a lot more beneficial than the magnification.
 
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#132
redneckbmxer24 said:
I have not tried the 5.5-30, I was behind a 3.3-18 once. The 3.3-18 gets a lot of praise and my first order got cancelled by the retailer with no explanation even after I emailed to ask. I have no interest in a 30x magnification 35oz optic though, I’ll be trying this out on a 22 so the additional so the additional elevation will be a lot more beneficial than the magnification.
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Interesting, I was initially interested in the 3.3-18 and decided against after reading so many reviews saying it suffers optically compared to the 5.5-30. I ended with with neither, but that’s neither here nor there.
 
#133
HaydenLane said:
Interesting, I was initially interested in the 3.3-18 and decided against after reading so many reviews saying it suffers optically compared to the 5.5-30. I ended with with neither, but that’s neither here nor there.
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I read a couple reports about bad glass but I thought it was the US made ones and one guy sent it back and they replaced it. I guess I’ll see what shows up and how it is.
 
#134
The xtr3 and xtr pros I looked through had really good glass. Better than any mk5 I've looked through. I think it's a better scope if you can deal with super thin reticles. Shooting on 20-22 power should be perfect for matches.

Xtr3 is an absolute steal at what you can get them for. The pro is more diminishing returns because it had alot of comp In that price range. I would never take a pro over a gen 3 but would take one over a mk5 in a heartbeat.
 
#135
I just got a Mk5 7-35 CCH, XTR Pro SCR2, and XTR3 5.5-30 SCR to compare. I’m going to keep two of them and sell the third.

I had an XTR3i 3.3-18 and swapped it in a good trade. It seemed like a very good scope but my action still hasn’t come in so I let it go and grabbed a 5.5-30. The Philippine model did fix the control/user experience issues of the US models.

I really like all of these scopes and have a feeling I’ll keep the XTR Pro & XTR3 and sell the Mk5 but it’s still a toss up.

The Mk5 feels a lot better than it looks, I’ve always thought that the Leupolds look really fragile so it’s good that they feel fairly robust and well made. The turrets are great, I like the lock and rev indicator. The windage as you guys know is a guessing game trying to get the turret and etch line paired up. The CCH reticle I’m unsure of so far, I don’t think I’m going to like it in light of more modern tree reticles but I’m waiting to try it. The FOV of this series combined with this mag range makes it pretty narrow next to the XTR’s.

The XTR Pro has some sweet features with essentially three turret options and the true quick-release plunger system for the turret. The controls all have a nice resistance. I haven’t been able to test the glass yet. I like the SCR2. I bought this scope used and the controls feel crunchy, like the last user had a lot of fine dust that got under the controls and is fouling them.

The XTR3 is a US model and the elevation and mag ring are a little stiff, and the knobs are sharp with this much resistance. Not terrible but it’s noticeable. My parallax is a little stiff. The SCR reticle is a little thick but ok. The glass is awesome.

I wouldn’t say the Mk5 is like staring through a paper towel roll, but it does feel like you’re looking 6” into the scope before you see the glass. The Burris models by comparison are awesome with an almost-all-glass feel when you look through them. I think the xtr3 5.5-30 is probably a gem at current prices if you want a second-tier scope at third-tier pricing.
 
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#136
DeathBeforeDismount said:
It's really a 3500 optic when compared to a 4000 zco and a 5000 TT. It's a better optic than anything else comparable( lrp5, s&b, 735 atacr, 525i). There is a 4th ( minox zp5) but their customer support and warranty process is so fucking bad they aren't even a consideration.

The mrsp on them is absolutely fucking ridiculous but thats how vortex wants to play it with their discount program and probally accounting rules to maximize "losses" to avoid taxes.

But it's an excellent scope. The issue is once you go north of 2500 for one, you are getting into used zco and TT prices. All 3 are alphas but those 2 do some thing better and alot of people find it to be worth the additional cost. I wouldn't pay more than 2100 for a gen 3 razor since you can get one for that with eo cert.

2k for a gen 3 new/used
3-3.2k for a used zco
3.3-3.6k for used tangent
I don't think the 735TT is worth the premium ATM. Probally 4500 used.

Thats the fair market.
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For you what puts the Gen3 or the ATACR??
 
#138
DeathBeforeDismount said:
Better glass, better reticle, better turrets, better warranty/cs and doesn't have the dumb ass rotating ocular.
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I don't like the rotating ocular either, I like the EBR-7D as well but I always liked the Mil-XT. You're right about the turrets for sure but to my eye the glass just seems better in the ATACR, as for the warranty I've never had to use it on a Nightforce but definitely have used the Vortex warranty a time or two. The better FOV and 5.8oz weight savings isn't bad either.
 
#139
I just bought 3 GEN3'S before this whole price increase happened and I'm quite happy with them.

I also just ordered a few Bushnell DMR3's 3.5-21x50 with the EQL reticle. I've had all generations of the DMR's and ive never had an issue with any of them. You definitely get a lot of scope with the DMR3's for around $1,200
 
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#140
Trying to circle back to the point, it has been mentioned in other threads but the other matter that Vortex keeps failing to address is the HUGE gap in their lineup, especially since the PST2 is essentially obsolete at the new prices.
 
#141
Wirides said:
Trying to circle back to the point, it has been mentioned in other threads but the other matter that Vortex keeps failing to address is the HUGE gap in their lineup, especially since the PST2 is essentially obsolete at the new prices.
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I'd love to see a compact 5-20 Gen3 razor
 
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#142
I switched to two Mk5s from G3 Razors. Vortex glass is superior but the locking turrets and the reticle were annoying enough for me, on a PRS gun, to switch.

As far as pricing, the G3 is pretty hard to beat in that top tier optics class. Euro has the regular brown color ones for 3k (before discounts), I'm not sure I'd get one for that but at around 2500 they are really hard to beat.
 
#146
bigjake83 said:
I don't like the rotating ocular either, I like the EBR-7D as well but I always liked the Mil-XT. You're right about the turrets for sure but to my eye the glass just seems better in the ATACR, as for the warranty I've never had to use it on a Nightforce but definitely have used the Vortex warranty a time or two. The better FOV and 5.8oz weight savings isn't bad either.
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The atacr has good resolution but it's a very cool color tone. The gen 3 is brighter and pops more for me. I noticed same thing with zco and TT. Zco was brighter and had more pop but TT had a cooler color with really good resolution.

I think a big part to it is our eyes. Different degrees of color blindness effect how optics look. It's why 2 guys look at same thing and can't agree.
 
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#148
bigjake83 said:
Wouldn't the MSRP increase affect the LEO/Military Pricing? Because like stated above it's already reflecting on Expert voice as well.
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Yes, exactly.
Your discount through EV or agency purchase will likely line up with the MAP.
Little to no effect on regular street price.
I like vortex Japanese made scopes, but they were beyond my means without the discount. Now, they are beyond my means with it.
Sucks to be poor, but I can't fault them for the move.
 
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#149
Birddog6424 said:
Europtics puts tons of certs on PRS prize tables at every Pro Series match. They are good for 30% off the advertised price of any Vortex in their store.

Vortex puts 50% off MSRP certs on the prize tables. Which brings up another reason for the disgruntlement over an MSRP increase.
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Ah thank you. First pro series is supposed to be Sunday but Mother Nature looks like she’s going rain that one out…
 
#150
fdkay said:
Yes, exactly.
Your discount through EV or agency purchase will likely line up with the MAP.
Little to no effect on regular street price.
I like vortex Japanese made scopes, but they were beyond my means without the discount. Now, they are beyond my means with it.
Sucks to be poor, but I can't fault them for the move.
Click to expand...

It’s still a little below, but typical discounts vendors offer is considerably better now, a 30% off MAP cert is WAYYYY better. It works out to not even being 5% below MAP. Or on the G3 you can buy the Euro Optic version for over $400 less than the EV price and get one that’s not the color of dog shit glistening in the morning light.

It’s kinda shitty they’ve done this and to first responders at that. Vortex might want to rethink this strategy.
 
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