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Rifle Scopes Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Its a post like that Sam that some guys (myself included) had been hoping would pop up. I'm good without hearing of an exact or even expected release date on the first batch, but to get an idea of what is actually happening and explaining it in terms guys like myself can understand is what its all about. Thank you!

Mike
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchinOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I hope when they are available for delivery that there won't be any price increases. </div></div>

+1

A significant redesign and retooling isn't cheap. Should we be be worried about getting in orders now to lock in price?
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

I am one of the many who has watched and read all I could about these fine looking/sounding scopes with great interest. Like MitchInOR I decided not to order yet, for several reasons. One of the big ones was the possible delays during a release of a new product.

Sam you did yourself and Vortex a great service by jumping in and explaining what the process has been like.

Someone said it before about it being laborious (read costly) to have very high standards of qc/qa. I have no doubt that you guys will have to revisit the pricing by the time the dust settles on the PST line.

With that said however, these are clearly hitting the market at a very reasonable price point. Beyond that you are making a pretty strong statement about your business philosophy and honoring your customers. Great job there, and good luck with the next phase of the roll-out.

I'm sure these will be very popular.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sam@Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Sam, might you be willing to at least provide some context? A lot of folks have asked the question "gee why is this taking so long to fix some turrets" but the indication is that we dont even know if that was the only fix.

Can you help us understand as a community some of the polish-type things you guys are driving to be better on this product? </div></div>

Sure, I'll do my best.

As you know the main complaints on the few we sent out were that the turrets didn't have firm enough clicks and they were too easy to turn. In addition, I believe there was one scope that got a glob of grease on one of the ocular lenses inside the scope.

To improve the turrets it wasn't just as simple as taking apart the turret and "fixing it".

We had to completely re-engineer the turret mechanism to improve the click and we literally threw away all the old turrets, eating the cost ourselves. The old design just wasn't capable of being improved to our satisfaction.

Even then, once we had the new design on paper we still needed to see a good sample size of prototyes to confirm the design and the new assembly process. This required new tooling and new tooling always seems to take a LONG time.

At this stage it essentially goes like this: New design -> wait for tooling to be completed -> wait for prototypes to be made -> test prototypes.

It's rare that a first prototype is ever 100%, so if it isn't, you have to start that whole process over again with whatever tweaks were made.

Once you've finally approved the prototypes, then you have to get the production line up and running again, which also takes quite a bit of time.

Regarding the grease blob, we did re-tool the assembly area/process to make sure that it was as clean as can be to avoid anything like that happening again. This also took some time.

Finally, we revamped our internal inspection process and in fact we even invested in quite a bit of new equipment to help us with that. That equipment took time to make and put in place.

So, even though we may have the final prototypes that work 100%, have the production line up and running, and may even know the date when the first shipment is coming in, until they have been 100% inspected in house and passed I am reluctant to say anything and get peoples hopes up.

In retrospect I see a lot of things that we did wrong with our initial release of the PST's last SHOT Show and I feel really bad about that. I really wish we just wouldn't have even introduced them, but unfortunately I can't go back and change that.

However, we have learned a lot from this and we have certainly changed the way that we develop and introduce product to avoid this ever happening again.

Anyway, I know this doesn't make the wait any better and I'm very sorry that it ended up this way, but hopefully you all will find the wait worth it and we can get PSTs out to customers soon.

-Sam </div></div>


Why couldn't you guys just take a NF apart and reverse engineer it?
whistle.gif
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Where abouts in that process are you guys up to? Presumably towards the end?

Chris
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

As far as pricing goes, they certainly are costing us more money than we initially anticipated, however I can say that we do plan to keep the initial pricing we released them with in place throughout 2011.

As with any of our products, once 2012 rolls around we'll have to look at things and determine if there will be any cost changes, but I can say that we are committed to keeping our products priced to make them a very good value in the market. There certainly are no current plans for any price increase on the PST's.

Regarding how far along we are, I'd rather not give out any details as that could fuel speculation, which could end up being construed as a specific release date. However, our official response on this is that we anticipate the factory shipping us the first production shipment of the re-designed PST's before the end of 2010.

-Sam
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Thanks for all the info Sam, can't wait to put a pst on my new build.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

I would like to add some more reticle choices to the PST line at some point, so that could include something like the EBR-2 in the future. However, right now our focus is just on getting them out.

-Sam
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Sam, +1 on EBR-2 mRad reticle.

That shouldn't be too big an issue as you've already figured how to make one for 35mm tube, right?

TNX!
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sam@Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As you know the main complaints on the few we sent out were that the <span style="font-weight: bold">turrets didn't have firm enough clicks</span> and they were too easy to turn. In addition, I believe there was one scope that got a <span style="font-weight: bold">glob of grease on one of the ocular lenses inside the scope</span>.</div></div>

Sam, you mentioned working on the turrets and grease issue, but are these issues being addressed as well:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Problem #1: <span style="font-weight: bold">The reticle is canted</span> by roughly 1.2 degrees with respect to erector movement. It's not enough to be obvious to the eye, but it's enough to cause problems.

Problem #2: <span style="font-weight: bold">The click value is about 3% off</span>. 97 clicks moves 10 Mils, even by measure of its own reticle--which seems to be sized accurately (within 1%)--as well as the collimator. </div></div>

Thanks, Sam, we appreciate you taking time to keep us updated. Looking forward to getting my PST.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sdkidaho</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sam@Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As you know the main complaints on the few we sent out were that the <span style="font-weight: bold">turrets didn't have firm enough clicks</span> and they were too easy to turn. In addition, I believe there was one scope that got a <span style="font-weight: bold">glob of grease on one of the ocular lenses inside the scope</span>.</div></div>

Sam, you mentioned working on the turrets and grease issue, but are these issues being addressed as well:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Problem #1: <span style="font-weight: bold">The reticle is canted</span> by roughly 1.2 degrees with respect to erector movement. It's not enough to be obvious to the eye, but it's enough to cause problems.

Problem #2: <span style="font-weight: bold">The click value is about 3% off</span>. 97 clicks moves 10 Mils, even by measure of its own reticle--which seems to be sized accurately (within 1%)--as well as the collimator. </div></div>

Thanks, Sam, we appreciate you taking time to keep us updated. Looking forward to getting my PST. </div></div>

Reticle accuracy and tracking is definitely something that is extremely important to us in these scopes and something that we did concentrate on making sure would be good when we re-tooled them.

A 3% error sounds too high to me. The latest prototypes I tested had less than 1% error, which is the goal we are hoping to achieve.

-Sam
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

I was seriously thinking of purchasing one of these scopes due to the reticle FFP and price....unfortunate to hear of the issues with the 1st batch, but after seeing the quality responses from the Vortex community I am definately going to purchase one of these scopes. The only question is will it hold up to my 50 BMG??
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

I'd only imagine they would hold up to a .50, there is a recent thread here that one survived a rear end car crash and still held zero.

Flyingbullseye
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flyingbullseye</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd only imagine they would hold up to a .50, there is a recent thread here that one survived a rear end car crash and still held zero.

Flyingbullseye </div></div>

Not to mention this was one of the original ones that people had the little problems with. After upping the Q.C. I could only imagine that the internals will be even more accurate. I would buy one for a .50. I'm putting the 6-24x50 on my 300 RUM
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Sam, for those of us lucky F_ckers that landed one of these fantastic specimens, is there any reason to return it for updates? Mine has worked great, and I dont have any complaints, so I would be reluctant to ship it off. I would however like to get a couple more, but I guess that would be glutony.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sam, for those of us lucky F_ckers that landed one of these fantastic specimens, is there any reason to return it for updates? Mine has worked great, and I dont have any complaints, so I would be reluctant to ship it off. I would however like to get a couple more, but I guess that would be glutony. </div></div>

I'm still jealous of you coldbore! I'm excited to get one, let alone a couple more haha. Don't you have 2 identical rifles? What scope did you have on the other one it never dawned on me until now that you didn't have a PST on both do you?
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Togeneral99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was seriously thinking of purchasing one of these scopes due to the reticle FFP and price....unfortunate to hear of the issues with the 1st batch, but after seeing the quality responses from the Vortex community I am definately going to purchase one of these scopes. The only question is will it hold up to my 50 BMG?? </div></div> We have done fairly extensive testing on 50's and have had no issues to date with the scopes holding up to them. That being said the traditional Vipers also handle the 50 with no problems also, so it really was expected that the PST's would be fine as we designed them even stronger than the traditional Vipers.




Scott
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jackh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so theyll be back out in a month or two, correct? </div></div>As Sam said previously we are not currently publishing an ETA. Just know that these scopes are our top priority and we are doing everything possible to get them shipping as soon as possible. I can assure you that no one wants these scopes out on the market as much as we do, but we are not going to ship them until they are done and we are happy with them.



Scott
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

damn well i will start putting some money away in preparation. im just a poor college kid so this is a lot of money for me. sure hope it comes out soon!!
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sam, for those of us lucky F_ckers that landed one of these fantastic specimens, is there any reason to return it for updates? Mine has worked great, and I dont have any complaints, so I would be reluctant to ship it off. I would however like to get a couple more, but I guess that would be glutony. </div></div>

If you're happy with how the scope performs then I wouldn't worry about it. The main thing you would notice if you sent it in would be that you'd have more positive/tactile clicks.

However, if you are planning on buying another one you could always compare it to that and see if you like it better.

We've already promised the buyers of the few originals sent out that we'd update or replace them once we have the final production models out. There's no time limit on that offer, so you could always wait until a down time in your shooting to send it in if that worked better for you.

-Sam
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

You guys are top tier
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Jon A, Sam,

What was the verdict on the canted reticle and click value being off?

Did that turn out to be a one time thing or is this being addressed by Vortex?
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott_at_Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Togeneral99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was seriously thinking of purchasing one of these scopes due to the reticle FFP and price....unfortunate to hear of the issues with the 1st batch, but after seeing the quality responses from the Vortex community I am definately going to purchase one of these scopes. The only question is will it hold up to my 50 BMG?? </div></div> We have done fairly extensive testing on 50's and have had no issues to date with the scopes holding up to them. That being said the traditional Vipers also handle the 50 with no problems also, so it really was expected that the PST's would be fine as we designed them even stronger than the traditional VipersScott </div></div>
Awesome just awesome........if the 50 won't break it I can't either!
wink.gif




 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sam@Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sam, for those of us lucky F_ckers that landed one of these fantastic specimens, is there any reason to return it for updates? Mine has worked great, and I dont have any complaints, so I would be reluctant to ship it off. I would however like to get a couple more, but I guess that would be glutony. </div></div>

If you're happy with how the scope performs then I wouldn't worry about it. The main thing you would notice if you sent it in would be that you'd have more positive/tactile clicks.

However, if you are planning on buying another one you could always compare it to that and see if you like it better.

We've already promised the buyers of the few originals sent out that we'd update or replace them once we have the final production models out. There's no time limit on that offer, so you could always wait until a down time in your shooting to send it in if that worked better for you.

-Sam </div></div>

Thanks Sam, I think I'll hold on to this bad boy ser# 00000004, and I will be looking for another. but now I'm in the back of the line, so it will probably be a while.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snipedogg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sam, for those of us lucky F_ckers that landed one of these fantastic specimens, is there any reason to return it for updates? Mine has worked great, and I dont have any complaints, so I would be reluctant to ship it off. I would however like to get a couple more, but I guess that would be glutony. </div></div>

I'm still jealous of you coldbore! I'm excited to get one, let alone a couple more haha. Don't you have 2 identical rifles? What scope did you have on the other one it never dawned on me until now that you didn't have a PST on both do you? </div></div>

Thats a negative snipedogg, CBM#1 has the 4-16 PST, CBM#2 has a Falcon menace 5-25 on it. Both scopes are MIL/MIL setup exactly the same, so they shoot the same load with the same dope. They are a match made in Heaven. Thats CBM#1 below.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Coldbore, just out of curiosity how's the glass between the two?

Flyingbullseye
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Well, I like them both, there are the usual complaints about the Falcon(eye relief, mushy clicks,ect.) but I find it is a great tool. If you really would like a good comparison click here its a detailed write up and comparison between the PST, Falcon,and two Mk4's.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

I saw that write up coldbore I'm glad you bumped it back to the top of the threads I hadn't seen that before. I'm highly considering getting a second PST and had considered a Falcon so your write up is great for me. Thanks for the write up it's gonna make a lot of guys decisions easier
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Anyone know if Vortex is making changes to just the feel of the turrets or if the reported reticle cant and click values are being addressed. Or if this was only a problem with just Jon A's particular scope?

Thanks.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

I dont know what Vortex is doing. But I know on my 6-24, that the turrets are a little loose. I really dont have any problem with them, it just takes a milasecond to look to see where your turrets are. I keep mine in a drag bag and dont abuse it, but im not gentle with it either, and I rarely have a problem with the turrets being off.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone know if Vortex is making changes to just the feel of the turrets or if the reported reticle cant and click values are being addressed. Or if this was only a problem with just Jon A's particular scope?

Thanks. </div></div>

OK!!! This is the THIRD time jefferson has asked about the reticle cant and adjustment accuracy. SAM. SCOTT. COULD SOMEONE PLEASE RESPOND. PLEASE?!? Did I say PLEASE?

Thank you.

John
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone know if Vortex is making changes to just the feel of the turrets or if the reported reticle cant and click values are being addressed. Or if this was only a problem with just Jon A's particular scope?

Thanks. </div></div>

OK!!! This is the THIRD time jefferson has asked about the reticle cant and adjustment accuracy. SAM. SCOTT. COULD SOMEONE PLEASE RESPOND. PLEASE?!? Did I say PLEASE?

Thank you.

John </div></div>

It was stated in the thread already that the turrets were being redesigned and that they bought new equipment to have better QC on the reticle stuff.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Sorry, I missed the reticle thing. I just noticed Jefferson asking the same question and it seemed it kept being ignored.

Thanks

John
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Thanks Jrob300 and tyrex13.

I have been following this thread since the big day and have been looking for that info, I just missed it too I guess amongst all the talk of the turrets (which don't bother me on my PST). I'll look through the thread again for Sam's posts.

It sounds like the next gen will make for a confident set up.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tyrex13</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone know if Vortex is making changes to just the feel of the turrets or if the reported reticle cant and click values are being addressed. Or if this was only a problem with just Jon A's particular scope?

Thanks. </div></div>

OK!!! This is the THIRD time jefferson has asked about the reticle cant and adjustment accuracy. SAM. SCOTT. COULD SOMEONE PLEASE RESPOND. PLEASE?!? Did I say PLEASE?

Thank you.

John </div></div>

It was stated in the thread already that the turrets were being redesigned and that they bought new equipment to have better QC on the reticle stuff. </div></div> Just a quick note that even by Jon's measurements the scope was well with in most scope manufacturers spec's, that being said we have already taken steps to improve components and the qc process for these as was stated by Sam earlier.




Scott
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

The good thing about these taking so long to ship is that it gave me time to gather money for rings, a base and DBM.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I cant wait to try one out! </div></div>

Glen, I'll trade you for your S&B that was on the Crusader when mine gets here...
grin.gif


Mike
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Just a quick note that even by Jon's measurements the scope was well with in most scope manufacturers spec's, that being said we have already taken steps to improve components and the qc process for these as was stated by Sam earlier.


Scott </div></div>

I think that's kind of ironic.
Gotta hand it to Vortex.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

It seems as though everyone has given up on speculating when these will arrive. I see midway moved their date of backorder to 12-31 on some and 1-15 on others so doesn't look as though any will be under the christmas tree.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

I just think this has been raised to the top soo many times that everyone by now finally knows that its just going to warrant another response of "They'll arrive when they arrive"... my .02

Mike
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jtb33</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
frown.gif
</div></div>

Agreed my son....Agreed
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Does anyone have these available ? I need a new scope and can't afford a Nightforce.
frown.gif


Lee.
 
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