Suppressors Welding Titanium
- Thread starter TBACRAY
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I believe the Griffin Armament Recce 5 is in that neighborhood.
What did Kevin say to @TBACRAY “If Good Enough Is Good Enough” for Q then hey I guess it’s good enough for Q, But it can be RIGHT they just choose not to because of the $$$ Cost in time and Gas!
So Kevin can say it to Ray, we EDM so ours are better, but then Flip Flop when he is avoiding added costs & not putting Quality first.
Same with switching to Green Mountain Barrels and Cast Receivers. “Good enough is good enough” for Q I guess. Definitely NOT passing on savings.
Don’t knock one company and then do the same thing!
Glad I'm not the only one to catch that. Edm because it's the most bestest but halfass welds are ok. Ditch Bartlien and Tooley because they were having to rework over 50%?? Then say Green Mountain is good enough...
While I'm all for innovation and changing the status quo saying you do everything the best and no one can hold a candle to your work and then cut corners just doesn't make sense. If I had preordered a Miller reciever and Bartlien barrel and got cast and Green Mountain, I would be less than pleased. Same goes for a Trash suppressor, I mean trash panda. If I ordered it because it was supposed to be the best at everything and then found out corners were cut because it was good enough... once again, less than pleased.
If you tell this group of guys that you're the best at everything, you probably should be, because we have a tendency to tear everything apart and it pick all the smallest flaws. It might not be what you consider important but some out there do and they will hold you accountable in public for the statements you make.
While I'm all for innovation and changing the status quo saying you do everything the best and no one can hold a candle to your work and then cut corners just doesn't make sense. If I had preordered a Miller reciever and Bartlien barrel and got cast and Green Mountain, I would be less than pleased. Same goes for a Trash suppressor, I mean trash panda. If I ordered it because it was supposed to be the best at everything and then found out corners were cut because it was good enough... once again, less than pleased.
If you tell this group of guys that you're the best at everything, you probably should be, because we have a tendency to tear everything apart and it pick all the smallest flaws. It might not be what you consider important but some out there do and they will hold you accountable in public for the statements you make.
All you have to do is let him run his mouth and he will back himself into a corner and show his true colors as you can see in these threads.
It’s must be SCIENCE..
You're OBSESSED. Do you realize how you just brought in the discussion about the Fix rifles? It's pretty weird.
Hold my beer....
First you need an objective unbiased 3rd party mil spec Metering Video with bk2209 recently calibrated also please use another manufacturers can as a control with same ammo same host same day or it didn’t happen.
Next when you post this video, If I’m not in here to comment right away, Here is my response.
...yeah that can might have metered way lower than the other one but I like the owner of the other company better so...tone.
#amidoinitrite
First you need an objective unbiased 3rd party mil spec Metering Video with bk2209 recently calibrated also please use another manufacturers can as a control with same ammo same host same day or it didn’t happen.
Next when you post this video, If I’m not in here to comment right away, Here is my response.
...yeah that can might have metered way lower than the other one but I like the owner of the other company better so...tone.
#amidoinitrite
I'm amazed this is still going.
As an outsider who doesn't even own a can, the only thing people are accomplishing in this thread is to make themselves and the companies they represent look like a bunch of clowns.
#welcometothecircus
As an outsider who doesn't even own a can, the only thing people are accomplishing in this thread is to make themselves and the companies they represent look like a bunch of clowns.
#welcometothecircus
He used the Fix example to back up his suppressor statement regarding Q's ethics. What exactly is incorrect in what he said? Q says that you should use EDM bores because good enough isnt good enough, and then they make excuses that colored welds are "good enough". That's hypocrisy. He followed that up with another hypocritical example in Qs switching of barrel manufacturers.
The only thing "weird" in this thread is your complete defense of Q as a company, while many people here see they don't conduct themselves in a very professional manner and contradict themselves frequently. When people question them, you immediately jump on the people doing the questioning. If I were Q, I'd immediately dissassociate from you, clarify you don't speak for my company and your views aren't my own, and then I'd answer people's concerns of my products with professional answers. None of this is occuring. It's eye opening.
I considered purchasing a Q Half Nelson, but after all this, I'll stick with Thunder Beast. They're professional, the Ultra 7 is smaller in diameter, lighter, and achieves virtually identical sound suppression compared to the Half Nelson. How can Q, knowing this, then claim theirs is the best on the market and then act the way they do when people question that claim?
Consistency would be nice. If good isn't good enough, it never is. It's not "not good enough" in one area and then good enough in another. That sounds more like excuse making.
Again, I'm just asking questions. Reasonable answers would be nice and provide clarity to people considering purchasing their products.
Consistency would be nice. If good isn't good enough, it never is. It's not "not good enough" in one area and then good enough in another. That sounds more like excuse making.
Again, I'm just asking questions. Reasonable answers would be nice and provide clarity to people considering purchasing their products.
Good luck with that. I gave up like 100 posts ago.
Lest we forget this started with TBAC making a dig at Q, not the other way around.
Any engineer can make the best if price is no object. A good engineer on the other hand designs a unit that can satisfy the user requirements while being affordable to the user, cost effectively manufactured, and earn some profit to keep the company afloat. So “good enough” is usually just that...good enough. TBAC and Q have different approaches to making something good enough that is affordable.
In my short experience dealing with Q (directly, not here in the hornets nest) they’ve answered every question I’ve asked, and I’ve asked quite a bit.
Any engineer can make the best if price is no object. A good engineer on the other hand designs a unit that can satisfy the user requirements while being affordable to the user, cost effectively manufactured, and earn some profit to keep the company afloat. So “good enough” is usually just that...good enough. TBAC and Q have different approaches to making something good enough that is affordable.
In my short experience dealing with Q (directly, not here in the hornets nest) they’ve answered every question I’ve asked, and I’ve asked quite a bit.
I guess I missed something, so they switched to green mountain barrels? I knew about going to a cast reciever didn't see this.
Yet one company here is saying this is exactly what they DON'T do.
And I didn't see the OP as a dig at Q. I guess looking back I can see how they took it that way and it's no doubt that they did. However, Q's entire marketing campaign is our suppressors are the best ever made and there's no comparison. They also trash other suppressor companies on there. Literally, look at their Instagram. So lets say this thread was started by TBAC to say "Hey, maybe your welds aren't as good as they could be." People then began questioning Q's claims and it's how they have handled that questioning since then that leaves a lot to be desired to me and several others.
If their response was "Maybe you're right, there could be a better way to weld and we will look into it since good isn't good enough" things would be different. It wasn't that way.
Yes, they did, and now you pay more if you want to upgrade. I don't think it's a real big deal as barrels are made to the specs of the company placing the order, but they certainly don't have the reputation of Bartlein, Krieger, Brux, etc that you would expect on a rifle in the price range of a Fix. Nevertheless, they seem to shoot great. I'd like to handle one.
Meh, I’ve got no skin in this game other than I thought it was silly to compare a one off 6.5 can against a production 7.62 can. Of course, if Kevin wants to do a one off 6.5 can to compare against the CGS can, that would be interesting, but prolly not a paradigm shift in suppression either way, suppressors are really kinda at the limits of the technology right now.
Let me be clear, the most impressive can we tested that day was the Energetix Vox.
This thread has gone pretty far astray, but I wanted to clarify one point.
In our manufacturing process, machining the bores is not a "compromise" in any material sense compared to EDM'ing the bores because we don't build cans in a way that requires an EDM bore cut to make them accurate and concentric.
Historically, EDM'ing bores was the fast/cheap way to make sure the suppressor bore was in-line with the threads, when the manufacturing process could not guarantee that the tube and/or core was actually in-line. If you've ever rolled a suppressor across a countertop and watched the exit hole walk around, indicating that the exit hole is not even centered in the exit endcap, that's a tell-tale sign of a manufacturing short-cut like that. In this situation, the body of the can will have a high degree of runout, while the exit aperture is (at least hopefully) lined up. The EDM just cuts through the baffles and end-cap where-ever the thread end pointed it.
That is not an indictment of EDM as a manufacturing process itself, because it's just another way to cut metal. You could use EDM to cut every machined surface on a suppressor if you wanted to. In theory EDM can be a more precise cut but we are talking a smaller fraction of a thousandth than another fraction of a thousandth.
In our manufacturing process, machining the bores is not a "compromise" in any material sense compared to EDM'ing the bores because we don't build cans in a way that requires an EDM bore cut to make them accurate and concentric.
Historically, EDM'ing bores was the fast/cheap way to make sure the suppressor bore was in-line with the threads, when the manufacturing process could not guarantee that the tube and/or core was actually in-line. If you've ever rolled a suppressor across a countertop and watched the exit hole walk around, indicating that the exit hole is not even centered in the exit endcap, that's a tell-tale sign of a manufacturing short-cut like that. In this situation, the body of the can will have a high degree of runout, while the exit aperture is (at least hopefully) lined up. The EDM just cuts through the baffles and end-cap where-ever the thread end pointed it.
That is not an indictment of EDM as a manufacturing process itself, because it's just another way to cut metal. You could use EDM to cut every machined surface on a suppressor if you wanted to. In theory EDM can be a more precise cut but we are talking a smaller fraction of a thousandth than another fraction of a thousandth.
Also, if you think this thread was aimed at one particular manufacturer, the next time you're at SHOT or gun shop or any place there are a bunch of brand-new Ti cans from a multitude of manufacturers, look inside and see if you can see any welds that aren't coated. There are a lot of bad Ti welds out there.
Unfortunately that is common in more than just titanium and in every industry out there. I could show pics of mild steel welds for 30k hitches on service trucks that would make you not follow then on the road lol. It's getting extremely difficult to find qualified help and a lot of companies are all about quantity rather than quality.
Does anyone have a link to the Titanium welding thread?
Zak's no nonsense posts are a breath of fresh air in this now ridiculous thread. Compare and contrast the substance vs hyperbole of Zak's posts and Kevin's/LRI's posts. Pretty striking. TBAC only for me, thanks. That is how you run a company.
The point is some people on this forum blindly follow TBAC, despite facts or improvements or evolutions by other companies. It's just silly.
More hyperbole. Your true colors have been exposed (as have those of your cans' welds).
Blindly?! Definitely not blindly. Ray and Zak are the kind of people, running the kind of company, producing the kind of products, that a guy just wants to follow!!
To quote an old Hide legend..."Hint"
People value reputation and the people behind a company. Right or wrong, they do. To overcome those values in those people, you really have to blow the competition away to have them break their loyaly. Not make similar suppressors that are a bit heavier, a bit larger (which yours are compared to their TBAC counterparts) and with negligible sound differences that nothing but a sound meter can potentially distinguish.
This is probably a bad example, but it's the first that comes to mind...
Chic-Fil-A... super Christian and they're not ashamed. Some people really hate that. A lot of those people still eat there because it's so damn good compared to everything else in it's category, despite their beliefs. That's what your up against. Especially since you've alienated several people based on how you respond to others in the suppressor industry and potential customers.
But this is all, like, just my opinion, man.
And speaking of being hypocritical, I really want one of your The Fix rifles. There, in my opinion, you've destroyed everything else in the lightweight, hunting/precision crossover category.
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Hansohn Brothers and Suppressed Nation on Instagram did the testing. I was there. There were no real surprises with the Q and CGS cans, the CGS can did great as expected given its bore and size, the fact that the Q and Energetix cans had comparable results on 6.5 is a clue that bore diameter matters. Hansohn just metered the Q on .308 and it did fantastic, like amazingly well. I think that it and the CGS are very nice, however the Energetix Vox is what has most thinking people’s attention. I’m not sure on the target audience for the CGS Hyperion, unless it’s to take the PRS world by storm and directly compete with TBAC? Not aware of any upcoming military contract bids that specify a direct thread 6.5 can either, but I’ve been out of the mil for a long time. Maybe it’s going to be released in 7.62? That would make much more sense. The CGS Hydra is a really cool little can, do want.
YES! That's the only personality this thread is missing... can we locate, un-ban and or release him from the dungeon that the SH gods hid him in?
Separate note: 229 posts in and still spiraling downward... Impressive!
Nice tactical term. Show a failed weld, I dare you.
That makes more sense.
Thanks for the kind words. Our silencers are just as much as an improvement as our rifles are...
There was nothing nefarious about the testing, but it’s interesting how both of the excellent 7.62 cans (Q Full Nelson and Energetix Vox) had such a shift on 6.5. Might be something with the meter? Maybe you could contact Hansohn and check the setup?
The same Full Nelson is in the mid 130s with full power .308 ammo and sub 120 with .300blk subs, so there’s nothing wrong with that can.
We have 6 actual degreed engineers. I bet none of the silencer companies that started this thread or are mentioned in it even have a single engineer.
Enough with all the reports to Mods from this thread. You all can start acting like adults and argue your points like adults or we will just ban everyone who has been complaining and lock this thread up. Your choice. @LRI @jeep94 @Kevin Brittingham
I know for a fact that this is wrong , may want to do a little research on this one .
I have worked all of my life with degreed engineers and am one myself. Because of that, I am not impressed. I know a lot of worthless degreed engineers. I know some good ones too and even a couple very good ones, but that degree means nothing about your abilities beyond your ability to pass tests in an environment designed to pass as many people as possible.
If you tell me that you are an engineer, there are a few things that I want to know. Do you have any common sense? Can you approach a problem with an open mind and garner a clue as to what you are actually doing? Can you see things for what they should be and then be able to follow that vision through to completion using your tools at hand? Can you look at a drawing and know whether or not it is actually possible to build that item? Will it work? Can you actually visualize a concept and translate that to paper (or CADD)? If so, maybe you are an engineer.
Ok. Who?
TBAC has 2 mechanical engineers and 1 electrical engineer on staff .
I don't see why a degree has anything to do with it. Either something works or it doesn't. I'm in a PhD program and I can't write shit code then hold up my degree and that suddenly makes it work. Also I'm a bit skeptical that none of these other companies have a single engineer.
Wait, people are reporting posts in this thread to the mods? That's like telling on kids in the playground for not playing your game right. 
Kevin was not the one reporting you and I was the one who told you knock it off
You and I value integrity, therefore Griffin is not something I’d ever consider
Come on now, who did Griffin knock off on their Recce series? Sure as shit wasn’t KAC this time! I swear you people try to find things to hate, just for the friggen fun of it...
Show me the patent infringement, and I’ll shut up on this. All I read is whining over similarity with you and KB. The whole damn suppressor industry is pretty similar overall. Get over it already. If there was direct copying, there would be lawsuits. WHERE ARE THE LAWSUITS!?!
KAC didn't patent their stuff, but if you say these are just coincidences, I don't know what to tell you. Griffin threatened the guy that posted this on Instagram.
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