What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

[AzNooB]

I can't group consistently at all with my Noveske N4. With cheap Russian ammo, I'll get 5-shot groups sub-MOA once every blue moon. However, being cheap, steel cased ammo, it's inconsistent and I'll also get 3+ MOA groups and everything in between as well. I figured with match grade stuff, I could reach sub-MOA consistently. Well, I bought some Ultramax 68gr HP which is supposed to be match grade ammo, albeit low end. I fired two 5-round groups today and both grouped right over 2 MOA.

I realize my carbine isn't set up for super precision shooting, but I'm confident that I'm skilled enough to shoot sub-MOA groups. I'm doing what I think is the right thing. I'm loading the bipod, using a rear bag, have a consistent cheek weld, am holding the pistol grip so that my finger moves parallel to the trigger, squeeze during my natural respiratory pause, and I'm following through. The scope is only a 4x, but you don't need much magnification to shoot sub-MOA at 100 yards.

The carbine in question is shown below:

Here are two 5-group groups I've fired in the past:

My friend recently bought a Remington 700 5R .308 that I fired a 0.654 MOA 5-shot group with FGMM out of it my very first time behind the trigger on it.

Even today in freezing temperatures and while snowing, I clovered 3 rounds that my friend reloaded (his first reloads) on a target I could barely see.

Using the same techniques, I can't even come close to achieving the same results, even when shooting both weapon systems back to back. What else do I need to do? Do I need to change my gas gun shooting technique? Am I missing something?

ETA: Before you blame the Chinese optics, both guns have Millet scopes. A DMS-1 and TRS-1, respectively.

 

[chaser_2332]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

Probley that pokèmon lookin hat u have on.....

In all honesty try some different ammo some real match ammo. Driving a gasser takes a little more time to learn find the ammo it like and keep puttin rounds down range

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

Short AR's simply don't shoot SUB MOA. It's not you, it's the rifle. Noveske makes one of the best AR's out there but you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

I'd try more than one kind of ammunition before I called it a day. Get some Hornady 75 gr match, BH mk 262 clone, and some Federal GMM. If none of those break 2 MOA consistently, then it's likely that's as accurate as your carbine is....which is more than enough for the type of rig it is.

 

[AzNooB]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Short AR's simply don't shoot SUB MOA. It's not you, it's the rifle. Noveske makes one of the best AR's out there but you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. </div></div>

What? Everyone on ARFCOM says they can shoot sub-MOA groups all day long using their [insert any AR brand] using M193 while blindfolded shooting offhand.

But seriously though, Molon (a member there) has been able to achieve some extraordinary 10-shot groups with non-precision barrels such as chrome lined light weight barrels.

 

[AzNooB]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd try more than one kind of ammunition before I called it a day. Get some Hornady 75 gr match, BH mk 262 clone, and some Federal GMM. <span style="color: #FF0000">If none of those break 2 MOA consistently, then it's likely that's as accurate as your carbine is</span>....which is more than enough for the type of rig it is. </div></div>

That's disappointing because I bought my Noveske thinking it would be capable of shooting the wings off of a gnat and that the only limiting factor would be me.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

the all things AR braintrust is over at ar15dotcom

 

[fdkay]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

Follow through.
Very important on a bolt gun, even more so on a gas gun.

I have an SPS tactical that does not care for 68 grain bullets, but loves the 69 SMK and Nosler CC.

 

[ddavis]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

Seriously, try some different ammo. Most of the great looking groups you see are with handloads, and may be the best of 5 groups shot that day. If you find a load that shoots consistently under 1.5", I'd be happy and call it good. Good for what it is anyways. If you handload you could bring that size down quite a bit.

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

That gun will probably hold an inch with ammo it likes. Keep trying or load for it.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

Its your gun, not you. I'll give you a grand....

Keep trying different ammo in it. So far, your gun is telling you it doesn't like what your feeding it.

I have an Noveske N4 and its sub minute easy, although I don't shoot it a lot and when I do I'm not shooting groups at 100.

You may not need more magnification to shoot sub minute at 100, true. On the other hand, when shooting groups at 100 (again not what I usually do with actual precision rifles), I find a bit more magnification is helpful (lets say 10x or so.) This probably has to do with my age and vision.

I'm sure you'll find the right ammunition for the gun if you keep looking. Good luck!

 

[BigBlue&Goldie]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

That is simply the wrong gun for precision shooting............I'm not sure what you would use that gun for to be honest?

If you have an 8lb milspec trigger, you are going to have to be a hell of a shooter to shoot tight groups.

That stock isn't going to provide optimal cheek weld.

Your scope's reticle is also likely not doing you any favors. I have a DMS1 on my .22lr upper I shoot steel with, but I don't think I would be questioning the accuracy of my gun if this was the only optic I had tried on it.

If you have a .556 chamber, it might take some effort to find a load that works in your gun. Noveske uses PacNor barrels, so your barrel should be able to hold a group.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBlue&Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is simply the wrong gun for precision shooting............I'm not sure what you would use that gun for to be honest?
</div></div>

Well, that gun is for....at least for me....when I only get to have one rifle right the fuck now and it isn't the one in my sig line.

However, getting an N4 to shoot subminute really shouldn't take too much effort and is possible despite its limitations compared to a precision long range rifle.

 

[johnson]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

Where did you get the Domo beanie?

Try lots of different ammo before giving up. The Fiocchi 77 gr SMK load shoots great from a few different rifles I've had. At the very least you should be hovering around 1 MOA with good ammo.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Short AR's simply don't shoot SUB MOA</div></div>

False.

 

[Grand]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

My 14.5 Noveske Afghan is sub-MOA capable. YOu did not mention the trigger, but a good trigger pull is critical. I would not load the bipod for accuracy work. Try resting the forend on a bag just forward of the mag well and like others said try different ammo.

 

[remaction]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

UltraMax did not shoot well in my RRA, nor did a few others. I then tried the Black Hills 55 gr SP and they shot around .5 MOA (I didn't go the the loading bench to look up the exact size). It also shoots Fiocchi 55 gr SP very well too, abut the same. It doesn't shoot the 69 gr BH as well. 50 gr Fiocchi with V-Max is ok but not as good as the 55 gr. Moral of the story, try different cartridges and then watch for a sale and stock up on what it likes. Also, like Grand said "Try resting the forend on a bag...". I use a rear bag also when testing loads. You need a good stable platform to take some of the possible shooter error out of the equation. You need to know if it's you or the load.

 

[Slinky001]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

you can get great accuracy out of a gas gun, but it has to be built to do it.

A space gun built for match shooting can do what you are after, but the rig that you are trying to do this with is not at all (in my little opinion)going to do what you are after. Nor is it designed to.

You can't really have the best of both worlds! You have a rifle that is set up for looking tacticool and is built for house to house close quarters combat fighting, not driving 80 grain Sierras into small holes on a consistent basis.

Your rifle is very nice, but I think that you are trying to make orange juice with apples!

Brian

 

[tylerw02]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

Noveske was designed to be as durable and reliable as possible, not as accurate as possible. If you're not score shooting with it (which wouldn't seem like something anybody in their right mind would choose to use a Noveske carbine on), its likely 2 MOA is going to do everything you need it to do. Remember, the thing is a big ole NATO chamber with heavy chrome-lining made to work no matter what.

2 MOA is 12" at 600 yards. Are you shooting targets smaller than 12" at 600?

Also consider that just because you can shoot the 5R so well, doesn't mean you can shoot the heavy 8lb AR trigger a well with a collapsible stock, etc. What's your AR scope? 4x? What's the 5R's magnification? Even that makes a difference.


ETA:

I own several ARs. The most accurate AR I've had was a non-chromed .223 Rem chamber 1:9" twist that would shoot 1/2 MOA with 69 gr Black Hills or my handloads. It was a great shooter, but it wouldn't be my first choice for a gun to grab if my life depended on it.

My next most accurate AR is an SPR with a WOA bbl, SSA trigger, and a Zeiss on top. It shoots about .75 MOA consistently with quality ammunition.

Most of my carbines are somewhere around 1-2 MOA and that's perfectly acceptable for their intended purpose.

 

[X-fan]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Noveske was designed to be as durable and reliable as possible, not as accurate as possible. If you're not score shooting with it (which wouldn't seem like something anybody in their right mind would choose to use a Noveske carbine on), its likely 2 MOA is going to do everything you need it to do. Remember, the thing is a big ole NATO chamber with heavy chrome-lining made to work no matter what.

2 MOA is 12" at 600 yards. Are you shooting targets smaller than 12" at 600?

Also consider that just because you can shoot the 5R so well, doesn't mean you can shoot the heavy 8lb AR trigger a well with a collapsible stock, etc. What's your AR scope? 4x? What's the 5R's magnification? Even that makes a difference.


ETA:

I own several ARs. The most accurate AR I've had was a non-chromed .223 Rem chamber 1:9" twist that would shoot 1/2 MOA with 69 gr Black Hills or my handloads. It was a great shooter, but it wouldn't be my first choice for a gun to grab if my life depended on it.

My next most accurate AR is an SPR with a WOA bbl, SSA trigger, and a Zeiss on top. It shoots about .75 MOA consistently with quality ammunition.

Most of my carbines are somewhere around 1-2 MOA and that's perfectly acceptable for their intended purpose.
</div></div>
Roger that!

The AR is not a precision rifle, but it is precise enough.
Every attempt to make a (ultra) precision AR seems to have the side effect of second rate function.

Groups are over-rated. How is the cold bore?
Awesome rifle BTW!

 

[battlestick]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

You mention that your buddy reloads, have him help you find what your gasser likes.

I am betiting with hand loads it will be a solid MOA rifle.

 

[leroyZjenkins]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

my AR prefers factory rounds to my hand loads. im about .25 MOA more accurate shooting hornady factory ammo than i am with my handloads that i had been using for over a year. didnt discover this till i ran out on the road and had to buy a box at the store.

even when i try to duplicate the store bought rounds i still cant get better accuracy

the laws of physics and common sense dont apply with my ar or my wife i just keep doin what i need to do to keem em both happy

 

[johnson]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

Here is a Centurion Arms 12.5" with a "big ole NATO chamber with heavy chrome-lining" and heavy 8lb trigger. Ammo was Hornady Steel Match at 4x. It was a borrowed scope so I only got to shoot it for one session, it normally wears an Aimpoint.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

Ummm, I didn't realize Centurion had extra thick chrome lining like a Noveske. I was under the impression they used spec lining while Noveske uses the same lining as found in a SAW.

You posted a single approximate MOA group. Are you proud of yourself or something?

 

[johnson]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

IIRC they use the same source for barrels (FN).

http://centurionarms.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=136

No, not proud. I was just posting that they "can" be accurate despite being short with thick chrome lining and a 5.56 chamber.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IIRC they use the same source for barrels (FN).

http://centurionarms.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=136

No, not proud. I was just posting that they "can" be accurate despite being short with thick chrome lining and a 5.56 chamber. </div></div>

What does that have to do with a Noveske barrel? What does that tell us about HIS gun? Not much.

 

[Beef82]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

I don't have a Noveske, I have a chrome lined ER Shaw 16" M4 profile 1-9 with 4500 or so rounds thru it, not free floated, mil-spec trigger, M4 stock. With two handloads, so far, i can shoot 5 shot groups into .6" at 100yds, .7" at 200yds. With factory ammo best I got was about MOA with 60gr TAP, most, including a few "match" loadings grouped somewhere around 2MOA some worse, some slightly better.
Point being, there should be something it will shoot at least reasonably well, but an average of 2-2.5MOA with factory or surplus ammunition from a milspec carbine is pretty common, I think it might even be the milspec. And as stated for what they're designed for its good enough.
That said try a different scope, something with more power and a fine crosshair reticle, and try a good benchrest, or bag instead of the bipod for your accuracy evaluations.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

Ammo quality is rule one, all else follows.

It always makes me laugh when guys spend 4+ digits on a rifle/scope combo and bitch about ammo cost. Feed it the good stuff and the rewards will become obvious. Don’t drive it like a bolt gun either, failure to follow through is more than enough to open your groups.

 

[VKC]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

Try some different ammo.

Plus a stable and aligned rifle position and trigger follow-through is much more important in semi-autos than bolt guns. For an AR15 with a bipod shooting from prone or bench, you should be able to fire a shot and stay on target throughout the recoil. If you are off target after firing then it is likely your follow-through and stock postitioning that is the problem.

I don't think the barrel length matters much for groups at 100 yards. You should be able to group well even with a short barrel AR15 at those distances.

 

[crebrosseau]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

Cheap ammo is like Walmart gas in a Formula 1. A run-and-gun weapon is generally not going to be a sub-MOA weapon, oh well. That's why the good lord gave us bolt guns and some precision gas guns.

 

[MD2Colo]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grand</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My 14.5 Noveske Afghan is sub-MOA capable. YOu did not mention the trigger, but a good trigger pull is critical. </div></div>
This is my 14.5 Noveske with standard greentip. Daniel Defense lower, nothing fancy. Target measures 22"x 14". That 5-shot group was the best of the day for me, but I was also shooting off of a bipod with no rear bag.

Ran out of Mk 262 ammo, but when I had some it would group sub MOA at 100 but it took a group or two before I got my head straight. How long is your barrel? looks like 12" or so
Your Noveske can shoot, bro.

This one is at 700. I prolly could have got these a little tighter, but the rounds were subsonic (based off of Shooter app). That shouldn't have mattered too much, tho.

 

[okiefired]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ammo quality is rule one, all else follows.

It always makes me laugh when guys spend 4+ digits on a rifle/scope combo and bitch about ammo cost. Feed it the good stuff and the rewards will become obvious. Don’t drive it like a bolt gun either, failure to follow through is more than enough to open your groups.
</div></div>

What he said. Put some FGMM through it, bet you'll see a significant difference.

okie

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

I didn't read all the above, but my opnion is this...

Getting sub-moa out of our bolt guns requires load development. Granted, we don't even shoot much factory ammo- usually going straight to handloads.

Point being, most of our bolt actions had bullet types, and weights, that they like, and don't like. I don't see why autoloaders would be any different.

My son has a Rem. 700 in .223 that shoots 63 grain Sierra SMP's lights out- better than boattail MatchKings. Granted the flat base won't really matter at the shorter ranges (200M) we usually shoot, but who would've thought the rifle would like the soft points- with their lousy BC- better than the match-grade boattails?

Try as large a variety of bullet weights, and types, of match-grade ammo as you can.

 

[fastford]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

Short ar's can't shoot is just plain bs. I have a 12.5 Noveske barreled upper that will shoot 1/2-5/8 moa at100 all day IF i do my part. Also got an 8" Noveske upper in 6.8 that I use for hogs and it is easily a sub moa as well. Use better ammo and go shoot it. As the others have all said an ar is not gonna shoot like a bolt gun, ever.

 

[stockdoc]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

you're feeding shit ammo to a great gun and you're surprised you dont get sub-moa. Really??

Get either quality ammo or start reloading quality ammo and that thing will shoot lights out. cheap ammo=NOT even close to moa, much less sub-moa.

 

[c4xplsv]

Re: What am I doing wrong? Gas gun vs bolt gun.

+1 on ammo selection. Cheap ammo can make a top notch rifle (bolt/AR) perform poorly. Just cause it has a match bullet (ultramax) doesn't mean that it's good ammo. Try some Federal Gold Medal or Hornady Match and see how things go.