I have a Remington 700 sps in 308 and it tends to group horizontal. I know the wind will do it but what about something static. Can the cheap factory stock flex horizontal? You change loads with different velocity and you get groups 7/8" wide and 1/4" vertical. Do you think barrel material could do this? I have a 24X leupold, have you heard of a scope getting loose and how would I tell. Thanks for your input.
- Thread starter 200 20x
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Re: What causes horizontal groups?
Several things could be going on here Sir. If you like give me a call and I would be happy to help you...
310-275-8797
I will be on Coms until 1:00 am PST and all day tomorrow...
<span style="font-weight: bold">Mike
Tac Ops</span>
Several things could be going on here Sir. If you like give me a call and I would be happy to help you...
310-275-8797
I will be on Coms until 1:00 am PST and all day tomorrow...
<span style="font-weight: bold">Mike
Tac Ops</span>
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
Have you had a friend shoot it with same results? Do you consistently shoot other rifles without this horizontal stringing?
Without any other information, my initial suspect is inconsistent trigger control: not having a 90-degree squared pull, using too much tip, using the knuckle, etc. The 2 times I had loose scope issues, it wasn't so much stringing per se, but more of a noticable & consistent shift like slightly upward-and-left after every shot.
Thing is: you're still talking sub-MOA performance assuming 100 yard measurements which is what I would expect from that rifle.
Have you had a friend shoot it with same results? Do you consistently shoot other rifles without this horizontal stringing?
Without any other information, my initial suspect is inconsistent trigger control: not having a 90-degree squared pull, using too much tip, using the knuckle, etc. The 2 times I had loose scope issues, it wasn't so much stringing per se, but more of a noticable & consistent shift like slightly upward-and-left after every shot.
Thing is: you're still talking sub-MOA performance assuming 100 yard measurements which is what I would expect from that rifle.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Black Ops</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Several things could be going on here Sir. If you like give me a call and I would be happy to help you...
310-275-8797
I will be on Coms until 1:00 am PST and all day tomorrow...
<span style="font-weight: bold">Mike
Tac Ops</span> </div></div>
If anyone can help you out it's this guy ^^^ Give him a call.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Black Ops</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Several things could be going on here Sir. If you like give me a call and I would be happy to help you...
310-275-8797
I will be on Coms until 1:00 am PST and all day tomorrow...
<span style="font-weight: bold">Mike
Tac Ops</span> </div></div>
If anyone can help you out it's this guy ^^^ Give him a call.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
Trigger control.
Phone Mike.
Trigger control.
Phone Mike.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
Well there are human factors (trigger control, breathing,flinch) and mechanical. For horizonal stringing I would say they are most common in this order.
1. trigger control has it been adjusted.
2. heat ( allow barrel to completely coot retween shots.
3. Ammunition ( if the rifle doesn't vibrate well with that charge .
4. Your rifle just aint a shooter.
Well there are human factors (trigger control, breathing,flinch) and mechanical. For horizonal stringing I would say they are most common in this order.
1. trigger control has it been adjusted.
2. heat ( allow barrel to completely coot retween shots.
3. Ammunition ( if the rifle doesn't vibrate well with that charge .
4. Your rifle just aint a shooter.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
Action screws not properly torqued allowing the action to move in both a bedded and non bedded stock - unfortunately my duty rifle was doing this from McMillan even when torqued down excessively. I bedded it and it stopped.
Action screws not properly torqued allowing the action to move in both a bedded and non bedded stock - unfortunately my duty rifle was doing this from McMillan even when torqued down excessively. I bedded it and it stopped.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
Make sure you are pulling straight back on the trigger. If you are already doing that, are you using handloads? I know if you jam your bullets too hard into the lands, you can cause horizontal strings.
Make sure you are pulling straight back on the trigger. If you are already doing that, are you using handloads? I know if you jam your bullets too hard into the lands, you can cause horizontal strings.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Black Ops</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Several things could be going on here Sir. If you like give me a call and I would be happy to help you...
310-275-8797
I will be on Coms until 1:00 am PST and all day tomorrow...
<span style="font-weight: bold">Mike
Tac Ops</span></div></div>
Awesome gesture here by Mike!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Black Ops</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Several things could be going on here Sir. If you like give me a call and I would be happy to help you...
310-275-8797
I will be on Coms until 1:00 am PST and all day tomorrow...
<span style="font-weight: bold">Mike
Tac Ops</span></div></div>
Awesome gesture here by Mike!
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
Working with the OAL of the cartridge didn't affect group shape. I didn't mention before that the rifle has a jewel trigger set at 1 1/4 lbs, and the factory stock is bedded with the forearm filled with bedding compound and the channel opened up to free float barrel. I've also decided the scope is fine even though it is older. When I worked up the loads I used the ladder method mentioned on this site and noticed at the top of the pressure limit consistency fell off it fell off horizontally (not sure what that means if anything). Screws are tight. All shots are from a Harris bipod and a sand bag under butt.
Whats left- trigger pull, check pressure, stock, call Mike
Thanks for all the input.
Working with the OAL of the cartridge didn't affect group shape. I didn't mention before that the rifle has a jewel trigger set at 1 1/4 lbs, and the factory stock is bedded with the forearm filled with bedding compound and the channel opened up to free float barrel. I've also decided the scope is fine even though it is older. When I worked up the loads I used the ladder method mentioned on this site and noticed at the top of the pressure limit consistency fell off it fell off horizontally (not sure what that means if anything). Screws are tight. All shots are from a Harris bipod and a sand bag under butt.
Whats left- trigger pull, check pressure, stock, call Mike
Thanks for all the input.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawkerpilot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trigger pull or inconsistant cheek pressure on the on the stock. </div></div>
This is what I was going to say. Having a different cheek weld every shot. You can't just not think about the cheek weld when learning. You have to consciously think about getting it the same every time until one day it will be habit. Same with trigger pull.
I believe when people go with out shooting for a long period of time their groups open up because of little things like this. You have to constantly train to stay good.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawkerpilot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trigger pull or inconsistant cheek pressure on the on the stock. </div></div>
This is what I was going to say. Having a different cheek weld every shot. You can't just not think about the cheek weld when learning. You have to consciously think about getting it the same every time until one day it will be habit. Same with trigger pull.
I believe when people go with out shooting for a long period of time their groups open up because of little things like this. You have to constantly train to stay good.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
Shooting technique aside, I had a certain reload string distinctly horizontal for me in a 223 Rem. All other loads (about 10) were normal. Thinking it was me, I went and tried the same charge, bullet, etc. Same thing repeated. Must have been a combination of the primer and powder not agreeing. Wasn't sure what it was, still not sure.
Shooting technique aside, I had a certain reload string distinctly horizontal for me in a 223 Rem. All other loads (about 10) were normal. Thinking it was me, I went and tried the same charge, bullet, etc. Same thing repeated. Must have been a combination of the primer and powder not agreeing. Wasn't sure what it was, still not sure.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
If it's strictly horizontal stringing I would wager it's 95% shooter.
If it's strictly horizontal stringing I would wager it's 95% shooter.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it's strictly horizontal stringing I would wager it's 95% shooter. </div></div>
+1
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it's strictly horizontal stringing I would wager it's 95% shooter. </div></div>
+1
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
I would agree with those before me. I think it is the guy pulling the trigger. I do it all the time too. Watch your breathing, trigger pull and follow-through.
I would agree with those before me. I think it is the guy pulling the trigger. I do it all the time too. Watch your breathing, trigger pull and follow-through.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 200 20x</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....I used the ladder method ......and noticed at the top of the pressure limit consistency fell off it fell off horizontally...</div></div>
This doesn't read like shooter error. Sounds like similar to what I described.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 200 20x</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....I used the ladder method ......and noticed at the top of the pressure limit consistency fell off it fell off horizontally...</div></div>
This doesn't read like shooter error. Sounds like similar to what I described.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
Try backing your load off a few tenths.
Try backing your load off a few tenths.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
How is this for a horizontal group? Except for those two I pulled low, I think this would qualify.
Shot with M1 Garand open sights at 100, 8 shot group. It was the first time I have been behind this weapon, give me a break... its all about getting used to and well acquainted with the trigger.
How is this for a horizontal group? Except for those two I pulled low, I think this would qualify.
Shot with M1 Garand open sights at 100, 8 shot group. It was the first time I have been behind this weapon, give me a break... its all about getting used to and well acquainted with the trigger.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
So I tried another test, I tried one of those rubber vibration dampeners on the barrel. Was curious if barrel, stock, or me was the weak link so I tried the dampener to find out how much whip there is in a 700 sps barrel. Here's what happened, I can't tell if the dampener dampens anything but it can change the point of impact. I started with the rubber doughnut close to the stock and worked out to the muzzle. The closest to the muzzle affected the point of impact the most, 1" to the right horizontal, and it was consistent from the stock to the muzzle, the more you move out dampener the more the point of impact changes. The group size did not shrink or grow that I could tell.
So I tried another test, I tried one of those rubber vibration dampeners on the barrel. Was curious if barrel, stock, or me was the weak link so I tried the dampener to find out how much whip there is in a 700 sps barrel. Here's what happened, I can't tell if the dampener dampens anything but it can change the point of impact. I started with the rubber doughnut close to the stock and worked out to the muzzle. The closest to the muzzle affected the point of impact the most, 1" to the right horizontal, and it was consistent from the stock to the muzzle, the more you move out dampener the more the point of impact changes. The group size did not shrink or grow that I could tell.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
Have you bedded the stock and try to tighten the action screws?
Have you bedded the stock and try to tighten the action screws?
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
If you're confident in your trigger squeeze, all your torque specs and that your load isn't the issue, I'd say re-crown it, or take an inch off the barrel with a target crown. Are you consistently walking the rounds one way or the other? Or is it just back and forth all over?
If you're confident in your trigger squeeze, all your torque specs and that your load isn't the issue, I'd say re-crown it, or take an inch off the barrel with a target crown. Are you consistently walking the rounds one way or the other? Or is it just back and forth all over?
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
I have had several Remington VSs that would not shoot any better than yours. One got sold and the other got rebarreled
I have had several Remington VSs that would not shoot any better than yours. One got sold and the other got rebarreled
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spanky84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trigger control and your possibly allowing your rifle to fee your heartbeat through your shoulder. </div></div>
Good point.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spanky84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trigger control and your possibly allowing your rifle to fee your heartbeat through your shoulder. </div></div>
Good point.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
I'm shooting off the bench with no heart beat to time. The stock is bedded and screws are tight. I ordered a new stock B+C, I'm pretty sure this will limit some whip. The Remington stock doesn't have pillars and even after bedding is flexable. Maybe this is as good as it gets? Under 1 moa isn't bad or great. What bugs me is the 1/4" to 3/8" vertical and 7/8" horizontal.
I'm shooting off the bench with no heart beat to time. The stock is bedded and screws are tight. I ordered a new stock B+C, I'm pretty sure this will limit some whip. The Remington stock doesn't have pillars and even after bedding is flexable. Maybe this is as good as it gets? Under 1 moa isn't bad or great. What bugs me is the 1/4" to 3/8" vertical and 7/8" horizontal.
Re: What causes horizontal groups?
Dig out all the bedding and rework! First...check the face of the recoil lug because if it's NOT SQUARE....it will cause the problem you're seeing!!
Dig out all the bedding and rework! First...check the face of the recoil lug because if it's NOT SQUARE....it will cause the problem you're seeing!!
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