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What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

C

Cfl Mike

Private
Minuteman
May 26, 2011
69
0
37
The Land of Nod
As I analyse guns for this stuff (meaning urban/suburban situations), I come to point where I am not sure what I would want, due to lack of experience. To cut right to the chase here, I am basically looking at bullpup designs (me personally am looking at the AUG, and F2000) and newer AR type designs (such as the SCAR, ACR, and etc.). I came to a point where I wasnt sure what type of design you would rather have; on one hand you have the AR designs which are probably going to be more accurate at farther distances, have less recoil, in some cases be lighter and better balanced, and maybe some other things too but I am not certain because I havent really shot more than one bullpup yet. On the other hand you have the bullpup design which allows for better close quarter handing, and still maintains good characteristics across the board.

So anyways, in your opinions (not looking for a right/wrong answer here, really dont want to make this a dumb VS thread, where I just try to extract you for information I would be too lazy to look up and make my own decisions, if thats what I wanted to do.) what would you prefer for this type of environment?

Thanks.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

i would get the FS2000 or the SCAR17 I would lean more to the SCAR17 for more stoping power. either one would be good. IMO.

thank you
joe
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

6.8 spc DI ar15 probably 14" barrel, brand doesn't matter (LMt, Noveske, Daniel defense)


But what do I know
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">9-10" AR15 in 300blk w/ a can </div></div>

+1
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

+1 +1 for SBR 300blk with can.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

300 blk is a awesome sbr round if you are doing PSD or going directly from a vehicle to a building I would rather have 6.8 a bit more punch. But you wouldn't look as sexy as having a small subgun for what that is worth to ya, I could care less.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

Well basically what im asking is would you rather have a bullpup or an AR design? I mean they are both going to have the same stopping power, they both use the 5.56 round (I know they make other variants with different rounds, but just pertaining to this round).
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cfl Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well basically what im asking is would you rather have a bullpup or an AR design? I mean they are both going to have the same stopping power, they both use the 5.56 round (I know they make other variants with different rounds, but just pertaining to this round). </div></div>

Ignoring the variant of the week stuff, I would go with an AR as parts are easy to come by and it can be reconfigured/repaired pretty easily.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

AR by a LONG LONG LONG shot
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

I wouldn't consider the AUG unless it's the newer A3. The rail mount on it is much better than previous AUGs as you can mount whatever you want as far as optics. The platform in general is battle proven. The trigger kind of sucks but in my opinion that can be overcome with training. It's also a piston operated gun and has the same advantages of a piston operated AR (which in my opinion don't matter unless you are military seeing high round counts between cleanings). Aside from being short the ergos ate worse on the AUG than the AR (for example mag changes).

I have ARs and an AUG A3 and would certainly lean toward the AR. However, if you live in a place that won't allow SBRs, there is something to be said about the AUGs compactness.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

Rapid mag changes suck on bullpups, most bullpups are not immediately, if at all, ambidextrous. Bullpup's short sight radiuses are not condusive to accuracy, many position an optic even higher over the bore than an AR which presents issues particularly at extremely short distances.

I think bullpups are neat looking and an interesting way of building a rifle, but they bring many compromises.

You have to be in tighter quarters than most residences for a 16" barreled carbine to be a hinderence, and that's what they make handguns for.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Beef</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rapid mag changes suck on bullpups, most bullpups are not immediately, if at all, ambidextrous. Bullpup's short sight radiuses are not condusive to accuracy, many position an optic even higher over the bore than an AR which presents issues particularly at extremely short distances.

I think bullpups are neat looking and an interesting way of building a rifle, but they bring many compromises.

You have to be in tighter quarters than most residences for a 16" barreled carbine to be a hinderence, and that's what they make handguns for. </div></div>

Wow, those are very good arguments, and things I really wouldnt have thought of until after I got it, thanks!

Now, even though its a more compact and at short distances its easier to handle; so you would still take an AR style platform over this for short range possibly even indoor combat though?
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

20ga with #4 buck = 20+ .22 caliber lead pellets flying in formation. Similar to emptying a 20rd AR mag instantaneously.

At indoor/CQB distances, there isn't all that much advantage to using a rifle, in fact, dispersion works in your favor. I have tried buck through a rifled choke and the dispersion is actually quite good for use indoors, pretty much blankets the entire volume of a hallway.

The same choke also sends plain old Rem 20ga Slugger rifled slugs very accurately out to 60-70yd, fist sized groups out there with a dot scope.

If I could get a Saiga 20 with the Paradox rifled choke and some additional mags, I'd be pretty much set.

Folks may cringe at the Saiga .410, but if memory serves, it was originally developed for the Spetznaz. I believe it was only later that the 12 and the 20 followed.

The Russians are also building Saigas for the military with 9x63 chambering, very similar to the .35 Whelen. The Russians may sometimes appear offbeat; but me, I think they be crazy like the fox.

Somebody needs to make a domestic S/G with a D/M; pump/auto, I'd take either.

Greg
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

I just recently went from an AUG to a PWS MK116 so I might be able to answer some questions on this one. The AUG was amazing in CQB. It shouldered was actually closer to my body that having a handgun extended. Recoil is extremely controllable due to the mass being behind your hands and in close to the body. Trigger...they make some drop in kits that use AR parts (also make bolt heads that use AR parts now too) and are a huge improvement. Mag changes are not as fast, but if you retain all your empty mags it can be trained to the point of almost no difference. Sight radius is short in stock form, but can be remedied with aftermarket or just use optics. I agree with Beef on the height, but train with your setup and know your weapon. Best of all, you have full length velocities with tiny package. All of that being said, I went back to the AR world. I have more hours and rounds through the AR platform than I will ever have with any other weapon system (Uncle Sam doesn't foot the ammo bill anymore) plus there was a big beef with my AUG....MOST bullpups lack a forward assist and that sucks. They can be very sensitive to how you release the CH and not having an assist makes for a huge time delay. The AR has a lot more options out there for conversions and tinkering. Plus, parts availability is a night and day comparison. If your weapon is going to be devoted to under 300m you may want to look at some other calibers as well. The 5.56 is an excellent round (underrated in my opinion) but there are some rounds that are absolute badasses in the 0-300m envelope. 6.8, .300, hell even the 7.62x39 has some new offerings that are very nice. In the end, it's up to you and what you will be most comfortable with though. Every weapon/caliber has it's pros and cons. That's why there are so many for us to drool over.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: db_17_85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just recently went from an AUG to a PWS MK116 so I might be able to answer some questions on this one. The AUG was amazing in CQB. It shouldered was actually closer to my body that having a handgun extended. Recoil is extremely controllable due to the mass being behind your hands and in close to the body. Trigger...they make some drop in kits that use AR parts (also make bolt heads that use AR parts now too) and are a huge improvement. Mag changes are not as fast, but if you retain all your empty mags it can be trained to the point of almost no difference. Sight radius is short in stock form, but can be remedied with aftermarket or just use optics. I agree with Beef on the height, but train with your setup and know your weapon. Best of all, you have full length velocities with tiny package. All of that being said, I went back to the AR world. I have more hours and rounds through the AR platform than I will ever have with any other weapon system (Uncle Sam doesn't foot the ammo bill anymore) plus there was a big beef with my AUG....MOST bullpups lack a forward assist and that sucks. They can be very sensitive to how you release the CH and not having an assist makes for a huge time delay. The AR has a lot more options out there for conversions and tinkering. Plus, parts availability is a night and day comparison. If your weapon is going to be devoted to under 300m you may want to look at some other calibers as well. The 5.56 is an excellent round (underrated in my opinion) but there are some rounds that are absolute badasses in the 0-300m envelope. 6.8, .300, hell even the 7.62x39 has some new offerings that are very nice. In the end, it's up to you and what you will be most comfortable with though. Every weapon/caliber has it's pros and cons. That's why there are so many for us to drool over. </div></div>

Yea if they made the guns I was looking at in 6.8 spc, I would be all over it, even though ammo costs would be out the ass, I reload so I might save myself some. See though I was looking for something that could suffice indoors in spur of the moment situations while at the same time being able to take out targets down far streets or even rooftops. So for the farther ranges I know the 7.62x39 isnt the best, but for close range it would be great. So I was also looking at the Scar 17s but I think .308 Winchester (7.62x51) might be a little too much. Thanks for the info I thought they had some kind of forward assist system or method or equivalent in place or something, even then it didnt seem like a big deal.

Im not sure but it looks like the FS2000 might have something like that though.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

I can't for the life of.. Wait I googled it. If you can get your hands on a semi-auto mp5 in 10mm That will take care of pretty much any threat out to 50yds(no hard targets) and I would bet out to a hundred would still have some knock down in it:)
It's only money!
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

This...
DSC_00101.jpg
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

Yea thats what I figured was going to be suggested, to be honest though I was trying to see if I could give me self a reason to buy a bullpup lol, because they are cool looking guns.

Anyways thanks for the advice, ill probably be picking up a Scar 16s (wish they had it in like a 6.8), if any of you guys know where to get them cheap or have a used one you would like to get rid of by all means let me know, I will be looking around. Thanks.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

id like a 7.62x39, or a 7.62x51 a ar-10 short barrel you have the ballistics and the knock down and if needed it will peal through most houses (sheet rock and siding ) like butter. although it bay be over kill you can engage point blank or out 5-600 yrds. shoot in, out or through a house. a 16" carbine model put a mk4-ar on her set of back up flips and your ready for trouble.

the 223 under powered for allot of urban area inguagements, as well as a SAW or something too heavy or cumber-sum for encounters less than 100 yrds
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

personally in urban, i.e. if say you are a leo and dont want to make it known you have a long gun in your bag i'd look at an acr sbr or scar sbr both in 10.5"

my reasoning is, with the folding stock you can fit it in a bag and not have to assemble it in order to use it, plus they both are easier to reload vs a bullpup

i run my sbr acr pretty hard with good luck, with the 10.5" noveske barrel i get around 1 moa at 100 meters, the downside is the weight, it uses lightly modified ar15 barrels which makes it a plus imo.

hopefully bm gets some caliber conversions out soon
pix
2011-08-14_12-16-15_108.jpg

 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

8.5 0r 10.5" 6.8 SBR. My 10.5's are crazy accurate to 700 yards where my NF scopes run out of uptravel. They fit nicely in Wilson tennis racquet cases, and hotel bellhops never question what's inside.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: corsair2pilot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What Greg said.</div></div>

Yep...Hard to compete with a tank sometimes.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

This with a nice Schmidt & Bender on top.......

hipoint4095.jpg
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

Im partial to AR type rifles from experience and if i was hard pressed I would go with what i know. 14.5 DI sounds about right w/ a no batt reflex sight like the mepro 21. Now if i wasnt partial I would be all about the FNAR 16 w/ a short dot.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

In all honesty I would go with this. It wont kill a lick but you can see your neighbor throwing off some knuckle children in his living room and black-mail photos to boot!

PhotoGun.jpg
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

I use this one for CQC and my neighbor didn't even see it coming... it works about 50% of the time...every time.

gun-camera.jpg


vq7cc9.jpg
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

Everybody needs an ACR in a back pack
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

I've got an AUG A3 with Aimpoint Micro and 42-round mag next to my bed. Amazing rifle as everybody who owns one has commented.

If you handle one, do not judge it by it's repugnant 10-lb with 12-inches of creep abomination of a trigger. For under $100, get both the Neu-Trigger and Trigger Lite mods -- the lightest setting is too scary light so I use the 2nd lightest (~3.5 lbs). Now, it easily rivals my Ed Brown.

Also, the AUG is designed to fire waterlogged.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: defcon1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use this one for CQC and my neighbor didn't even see it coming... it works about 50% of the time...every time.

gun-camera.jpg


vq7cc9.jpg


</div></div>

LOLZ SOLD!
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

For indoor or short range...

My #1 pic is an MP5

But between bullpup and AR, definitely a SBR AR
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cfl Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: defcon1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use this one for CQC and my neighbor didn't even see it coming... it works about 50% of the time...every time.

gun-camera.jpg


vq7cc9.jpg


</div></div>



LOLZ SOLD! </div></div>

EPIC!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: defcon1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This with a nice Schmidt & Bender on top.......

hipoint4095.jpg
</div></div>

I dont understand why anyone would buy a highpoint, i know people have them and im not knocking the people but...... their through away guns are they not?? you can buy a 45 for $125 last time i checked
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

Personally, I would want a SBR 308. I don't know what the intended use for this gun is, but in light of the question it sounds like some serious stuff is going to happen with that rifle in your hands. 223 is a great round, but I would rather swing around a short rifle and 223 is going to be a little limited as an SBR. 6.8 or 308 SBR should be a great choice in my humble opinion. If over-penetration is a problem, look into some of the lighter weight 308 rounds, they should zip right out of a shorter barrel and fragment fairly well.

That being said ACR is going to provide quick change between SBR 6.8 and full size 223 in one gun. I might go that route, but an SBR 308 would put my mind a little more at ease.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

[/quote]Ignoring the variant of the week stuff, I would go with an AR as parts are easy to come by and it can be reconfigured/repaired pretty easily. [/quote]

Ditto; I have found the LWRCI offerings to be fairly extensive and high end.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That "FAIL" pic is just horrible enough to get this thread locked .... LOL </div></div>

Whats wrong with that "FAIL" pic? he is just chillen out maxin relaxin all cool, shootin the shit outside of his school when a couple of guys they were up to no good, startin makin trouble in his neighborhood..

pyzamcoolguybu1.jpg
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

For an urban environment, I think a Keltec Sub2K with 31 round Glock mags would be ideal. How many shots are going to be over 50 yards? Plus it folds up and fits into a backpack.

Jim
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

It's unfortunate the MSAR STG-556 is no loner made, I enjoy shooting mine! It balances very well (better then any AR I own) and after installing one of the trigger kits, has a really nice trigger pull. I would highly recommend them if bullpup is the way you are looking!
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

Yea those are iight, but I kind of like those FS2000s man, those things are cool they feel so nice in the hands ooooooooweeee.
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

Select fire Famas with a S&B 5-25 and tactical laser/light combo. Really just full auto cause who's gonna shoot semi anyway?
 
Re: What type of rifle would you want for urban/sub?

does this count? I can shoot out to a 100 easily and precisely..

DSC01504.jpg
 
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