What upper build for new USMC recruit?

[reeljob]

My son has enlisted in the Corps and I desire he qualify expert, so..... What spec upper should he begin practice with? I will buy or build just want to be sure he is using the same rig or comparable to the Corps rifle. Any info on current Qual course is also appreciated.
Thanks in advance!
Barry

 

[srt-4_uk]

Get him a 64 pack of crayons so he can get used to the food before he gets there.

 

[reeljob]

Already started him on a crayola diet, it is my personal opinion that he has achieved enough colorful carbs to begin a serious training regimen!

 

[Deleted member 10043]

AR15A2

 

[srt-4_uk]

Seriously though, teach him how to shoot iron sights and he will be fine with whatever they give him.

 

[hlee]

I am not now, nor have I ever been part of any military force, so take this for what its worth. Are you a current or former USMC marksmanship instructor? If not, I'd let them do their jobs when the time comes. It will be easier for him and the instructors both if he doesn't have bad habits to unlearn.

 

[Luke]

I am not now, nor have I ever been part of any military force, so take this for what its worth. Are you a current or former USMC marksmanship instructor? If not, I'd let them do their jobs when the time comes. It will be easier for him and the instructors both if he doesn't have bad habits to unlearn.

Disagree....being familiar with the AR platform and being able to shoot it accurately is definitely an advantage in boot camp. When I went through Army infantry training it was significantly less stressful because I knew how to make all my own sight adjustments, was able to zero in half the time, and had confidence taking longer shots during qualification. But in my opinion qualifying expert in boot camp doesn't carry a lot of weight anymore. In the Army anyway, once you get to your permanent unit, rifle qualifications were conducted frequently, and your boot camp qualification score had little to no bearing on what opportunities you had available to you. It's not like Vietnam where the top 3 shooters get hand selected to go to sniper school or whatever... i would get him a National Match style rifle for him to get familiar with and train with. Doesn't have to be an expensive match grade rifle, but something with that A2 form factor.

A little pro tip here - When it comes time to clean your weapon and have it inspected, clean it completely, and then degrease everything with isopropyl alcohol. It will easily pass the "finger into the chamber" cleaning inspection. If you oil it up first the oil will continue to wick carbon out of the pores of the metal and it will never pass the white glove inspection. Obviously as soon as the drill sergeant gives you the thumbs up to turn the weapon in, go oil it up so it doesn't rust while sitting in the arms room. Saved me many hours of pointless scrubbing...

PSA PA-15 20” Nitride A2 Rifle-Length 5.56 NATO Classic AR-15 Rifle, Black

Classic 20" Classic A2-style Rifle with carry handle rear sight. Barrel: 4150 Chrome Moly steel. Chambered in 5.56 NATO, with a 1/7 twist, M4 barrel extension, and a rifle-length gas sy

palmettostatearmory.com

 

[diggler1833]

I have been shooting since age 3, and entered the Marines at 18 after high school.

I had poor fundamentals, and no experience with the AR/M16 platform. I thought I was an awesome shot however...we all do.

I applied what I was taught by our PMI (Primary Marksmanship Instructor), forgot what I learned from just blasting away during my formative years, and tied for company high shooter.

I became a PMI myself (8531 then) at my four year mark and started working at the Division Marksmanship Training unit until I executed orders to recruiting duty. I came back, went to war a few times and shot a handful or two of Service Rifle matches at a decent level.

The rifle you get him now will best suit for familiarity only unless you or someone you know will teach your son the same fundamentals and positional shooting as he will encounter in recruit training. Otherwise I fear he might develop overconfidence and bad habits.

...In other words...just get the cheapest, most milspec blaster you can find that runs reliably...the rifles issued to recruits are horribly abused anyway. I don't think I had a square inch of bluing left on my six inch barrel when I got it.

Or, get something nice that he can use when he's back home and daydream about when he's lugging his issued beater around.

Good luck to him.

 

[ChitownCopper]

M16A4

 

[digitalshooter]

Aren't the Marines using M-16A4s with ACOGs for rifle qualifications now?

 

[SuperBoot]

New recruits are all training on M16A4's with TA31's on top, and shitty milspec triggers.
Honestly, it's not hard at all to qual expert with any sort of basic shooting fundamentals.
The smallest target he'd be shooting at is well over the size of a dinner plate, and that's at the 200 yard line. You have to think that the average M16 on the line is a 3-4 minute gun (max allowable is 7moa iirc), so the targets aptly reflect that. They're hard to miss, even in the wind at 500.

To answer your question, if he can ping 3-4 moa steel with a milspec AR out to 500 with a magnified optic, he's going to qual expert.

 

[diablodawg]

Don't waste time on irons. Expert is super easy. If anything, eye relief on the RCO and proper holds on un-freefloated barrel are most difficult.

Also flexibility for table 1 positions.

If you want a cool present, get an identical lower with his boot camp serial made.

 

[TheBigCountry]

let the PMIs at PI do their job. They’ve been chosen to instruct recruits for a reason, and they are damn good at it. Going there with bad fundamentals already in place will only make it harder on him and the PMI’s.

 

[The DFC]

let the PMIs at PI do their job. They’ve been chosen to instruct recruits for a reason, and they are damn good at it. Going there with bad fundamentals already in place will only make it harder on him and the PMI’s.

Exactly.

 

[reeljob]

Thanks guys! I really appreciate all the input thus far and all has been very informative. I realize I do not want to develop bad habits and as a business owner I understand.
Now, about my son. He has enrolled DEP and has asked me to work with him on his shooting. He is a very skilled and devloped shooter on a bolt rifle. As a matter of fact he has almost out done ole dad on a few matches. He long before considering the Corps has gotten up before the rooster to go to the gym and still make school and a after school job. His grades are high and he never cracks a book.
I want to be a asset in his development and the Father/son time between now and Sept 8 is good for us both. I am a very efficient shooter and know the weapon platform in and out. Maybe just time spent together is good enough but as a Father I want to help him in his pursuit of life goals. I respect those who will soon assume the roll of training my son and by no means want to make their life more difficult but I know my son and he ask and I do all I can to comply!.
Proud of my son and his choice to serve!.
Once again Hiders, Thank you!

 

[siscoe308]

I bought a RRA nation match A2 style gun before boot....and honestly it didn’t really help much at all.
My rifle in boot had the most gosh awful trigger that I have ever encountered. So I had to completely relearn to shoot that gun

I also was trained as a PMI....way back in ‘08 so my advice maybe dated.

Big themes he will hear are the basic fundamentals. Sight alignment, sight picture & trigger control.
The rifle qual is fairly easy (given halfway decent winds on qual day) but it’s all positional shooting. Standing/kneeling/sitting/unsupported prone....tell him to not get stuck carrying chain in the pits!

They will cover everything he needs to qual. But having a base of knowledge about basic gun function/ simple ballistics/ how to sight in a weapon will be helpful, if not completely necessary.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Thanks guys! I really appreciate all the input thus far and all has been very informative. I realize I do not want to develop bad habits and as a business owner I understand.
Now, about my son. He has enrolled DEP and has asked me to work with him on his shooting. He is a very skilled and devloped shooter on a bolt rifle. As a matter of fact he has almost out done ole dad on a few matches. He long before considering the Corps has gotten up before the rooster to go to the gym and still make school and a after school job. His grades are high and he never cracks a book.
I want to be a asset in his development and the Father/son time between now and Sept 8 is good for us both. I am a very efficient shooter and know the weapon platform in and out. Maybe just time spent together is good enough but as a Father I want to help him in his pursuit of life goals. I respect those who will soon assume the roll of training my son and by no means want to make their life more difficult but I know my son and he ask and I do all I can to comply!.
Proud of my son and his choice to serve!.
Once again Hiders, Thank you!

Honestly any mil-spec upper will do. Scoring expert on the Qual isn’t hard, as long as he applies what he is being told. The good thing is that you can snag a basic 16” or 20” upper with a quad rail, carry handle, and fixed front sight for cheap. M855 ball is cheap as well. Throw up a BZO target at 36yds and boom, you’re ready to get some familiarization going. Getting used to loading magazines and loading/unloading an AR won't hurt, just as shooting with one isn’t going to hurt him. It probably won’t benefit him either but you’ll get more time with him before he goes so it’s a win win.

As for the people mentioning the possibility of instilling bad habits and making the PMI’s job harder, that is an individual’s personality issue. Nothing wrong with a father taking/showing his kid how to shoot or operate a system before going to boot. The only time that is an issue is if the individual (recruit) goes into it with the “I know this already” attitude and doesn’t apply what they are told.

Best thing you can do is spend time with your son now, before he goes off into the world. If he wants to get some time in with an AR, then more power to y’all. Just make sure he understands that he needs to arrive with an open mind, willingness to learn, and a solid foundation of ethics and morals. The rest is a walk in the park.

Best of luck to your son and congrats to you for being a supportive father.

 

[Supersubes]

I wouldn’t worry about this too much. They’re going to want him to do things a certain way, and that may not be the way you do things, which will just set him back. Just make sure he’s got a basic foundation. Controlled trigger, cheek weld, etc. if you’re able, maybe get him tired in the process. I was a varmint shooter prior to USMC boot camp and had near zero experience with AR’s. I was platoon high shooter(238) and missed Company by two points. This was in the 200-500 KD days. I don’t know what the new course is like, but if it went the way of the PFT, he’s probably gonna be running around and shooting tired.

Maybe a young Devil around here can fill us in on the new course.

 

[Strykervet]

Honestly? Save the money and buy him a nice graduation present, maybe something he can use.

I could explain in great detail why not to buy a rifle and practice shooting, but it boils down to "it ain't worth it". Run and do more PT.

An exception I feel would be if he has the time to take up NM shooting and practice that. Weapon won't matter because the aim is to shoot within the limits of the weapon. A 3MOA rifle shooting 3MOA groups means you're doing your best and if you can learn to do that with one rifle you can do it with any.

And he can always do NM AFTER basic when he gets to his unit if he just wants to be a better shooter.

 

[The DFC]

When he gets his first leave he'll teach you

 

[TheBigCountry]

Another thing to consider is, will he be able to take it with him when he gets to his first duty station?

 

[BigPineyTradingPost]

let the PMIs at PI do their job. They’ve been chosen to instruct recruits for a reason, and they are damn good at it. Going there with bad fundamentals already in place will only make it harder on him and the PMI’s.

I would follow this advice. Let the PMI's do their work. He’ll just learn bad habits in the civilian world.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Another thing to consider is, will he be able to take it with him when he gets to his first duty station?

Did your unit let new arrival boots store their weapons in the armory (or even let them know it was a commander’s discretion thing)? A buddy and I used to keep ours at Flatwoods Range in NC for like $20 a week or whatever it was. That being said, that’s probably pretty far down the list of boot concerns. ...especially if he gets anywhere other than Lejeune. The biggest concerns facing boots are HIV-positive strippers at Toby’s and 59.8% APR Mustangs or F250’s. ??

 

[TheBigCountry]

Did your unit let new arrival boots store their weapons in the armory (or even let them know it was a commander’s discretion thing)? A buddy and I used to keep ours at Flatwoods Range in NC for like $20 a week or whatever it was. That being said, that’s probably pretty far down the list of boot concerns. ...especially if he gets anywhere other than Lejeune. The biggest concerns facing boots are HIV-positive strippers at Toby’s and 59.8% APR Mustangs or F250’s. ??

Nope. Spent all my damn money on La Mirage, Fast Freddie’s, and other stupid shit and didn’t know enough at that point.

 

[diggler1833]

Did your unit let new arrival boots store their weapons in the armory (or even let them know it was a commander’s discretion thing)? A buddy and I used to keep ours at Flatwoods Range in NC for like $20 a week or whatever it was. That being said, that’s probably pretty far down the list of boot concerns. ...especially if he gets anywhere other than Lejeune. The biggest concerns facing boots are HIV-positive strippers at Toby’s and 59.8% APR Mustangs or F250’s. ??

After retiring from the Corps...of which 14 years was spent at Lejeune...I can attest that Toby's has really cleaned up their act. I wouldn't expect much more than Hep C from that place now.

In all honesty though, I did go there once on Jan 1, 1999. There were two girls there that day, and that was it. One was old enough to be our mom. The other, while pretty, was so flat-chested thst she could have run face first into a brick wall and stubbed her pussy.

 

[TheBigCountry]

Did your unit let new arrival boots store their weapons in the armory (or even let them know it was a commander’s discretion thing)? A buddy and I used to keep ours at Flatwoods Range in NC for like $20 a week or whatever it was. That being said, that’s probably pretty far down the list of boot concerns. ...especially if he gets anywhere other than Lejeune. The biggest concerns facing boots are HIV-positive strippers at Toby’s and 59.8% APR Mustangs or F250’s. ??

And don’t forget the damn tattoo shops. Had a Wook I knew go to one to get a tat; it was supposed to be a dandelion. It looked like a bird shit on her damn arm. Facepalm to the damn extreme

 

[z7.jled]

The qual is all with acogs and IiRC wind corrections are holds now instead of dialing irons
Long range (200yd) 22 long rifle might help, but if he has shot a little growing up, he’ll be ok, if he hunted growing up, he will have an advantage

 

[M8541Reaper]

And don’t forget the damn tattoo shops. Had a Wook I knew go to one to get a tat; it was supposed to be a dandelion. It looked like a bird shit on her damn arm. Facepalm to the damn extreme

Ummm I have a name, it isn’t Wook, and it was supposed to be a low back dragon tat. ?

Dude my “welcome to the fleet” moment was day one in formation where they made the announcement about the HIV-positive stripper biting people and how they should go to medical if they’ve been to Toby’s. Turns out it was my fiancé from the night before biting people so I never had the chance to save up the cash for quality dandelion tats. ?

All I had left after the break up was a forged meal card and three MRE spoons, so I opened a tactical porn trailer right off the highway to Jacksonville Regional Airport. Butt Plugs and chest rigs all in one convenient place.

OP: These are the real world scenarios to prep for rather than the high shooter award lol. Well, to be honest, they are all great goals. ?

 

[TheBigCountry]

Ummm I have a name, it isn’t Wook, and it was supposed to be a low back dragon tat. ?

Dude my “welcome to the fleet” moment was day one in formation where they made the announcement about the HIV-positive stripper biting people and how they should go to medical if they’ve been to Toby’s. Turns out it was my fiancé from the night before biting people so I never had the chance to save up the cash for quality dandelion tats. ?

All I had left after the break up was a forged meal card and three MRE spoons, so I opened a tactical porn trailer right off the highway to Jacksonville Regional Airport. Butt Plugs and chest rigs all in one convenient place.

OP: These are the real world scenarios to prep for rather than the high shooter award lol. Well, to be honest, they are all great goals. ?

LMFAO. The adventures around Lejeune made it the best. Jacksonville Ninja, guys falling for the local “dancers” etc

OP, sorry to derail the thread. Best advice to send over is when he out of Boot, and ends up ether at MCT or SOI East, don’t fall for the traps that are waiting for him around Base/Schoolhouse

 

[Luke]

I'm sure PMI's know their stuff, but this idea that learning how to shoot outside of Marine boot camp will somehow ruin you with bad habits is totally ridiculous...

 

[M8541Reaper]

I'm sure PMI's know their stuff, but this idea that learning how to shoot outside of Marine boot camp will somehow ruin you with bad habits is totally ridiculous...

Exactly.
Also, if attending boot camp was the end all be all of instruction, everyone would qual expert. Based on some of the advice given in this thread, everyone who has ever shot before boot wouldn’t get expert and all new shooters would get expert. Everyone seems to ignore that performance in boot camp is based on the individuals willingness to learn, apply the fundamentals, and do as they are told. ...and not on any other factors.

Boot camp has always been and will always be literally nothing more than an extended summer camp with matching clothes. It is a baseline to step off of and, for some, a lifetime of stories as they never progressed from it.

 

[loveha]

Not sure how far behind the depots are to what is in the fleet. I carried one of these in Iraq in 08'.
Assuming you can find one, these must have been limited. Was hoping to buy one in the future.

Semi-Auto | Rifles at Brownells

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All you would need is the appropriate ACOG.

 

[Vio515]

I was in the Corps from 04 to 09. Hands down the biggest stressor in boot for people was PT. Make sure he can run 3 miles in 20 min before he goes, be as good at pull ups as possible and do the 100 crunches/planks till the cows come home.

Not getting flagged as a fat body or a pt bitch will make his life easier and allow him to focus on the knowledge they are trying to convey vs getting smoked on the quarter deck all the time to get him in shape.

As for the marksmanship side of things. It sounds as if he already knows the basics of it. Let the PMIs do their job. He knows which end goes bang, where the safety is and how to load magazines. Let them do the rest. They will correct anything they dont like so to try and teach something new now, unless you can get it from a current PMI at one of the recruit depots, will likely be to his disadvantage.

If you really need to scratch an itch, go find the current USMC rifle data book and the M16A4 technical manual. Both can be easily found and downloaded. Be familiar with how to record data in a log book.

I still suggest be on top on the PT and let the PMIs do their job.

 

[Buckshot0351]

As an 0351 (2004-2008), the best advise i can give is just get familiar with dis n ass of the rifle. Especially getting the handgurads back on and not freaking out when hot brass goes in his shirt on the firing line. Theres other shit he can do before hand like learn general orders now so its one less thing to do when he gets there. Depending on his MOS, boot camp is just a drop in the bucket compared to the next 4 years. In light of that, the single most helpful thing he can do until the time he goes in is get a shitload of mat time in at a bjj gym. Both gi and no-gi, not just for boot camp but this skill will be crucial once he hits the fleet. I would recommend a BARE MINIMUM OF 1 YEAR of bjj or 6 months plus a season of high school wrestling. Being half way proficient at ground fighting will make life alot easier for him. It pays to be a winner as he will find out.
Remember to keep high spirits and to remain cheerful no matter how shitty the situation gets.

 

[slothlacrosse]

Already started him on a crayola diet, it is my personal opinion that he has achieved enough colorful carbs to begin a serious training regimen!

Marines don’t have the budget for Crayola. Hell, we get only get Skillcraft in the Army. Gotta join Space Force to get Crayola!

 

[socalmarine]

Don't waste your money on an AR for him. It is a nice thought, but I doubt he'll have time for it once he's in. Weekends will be better spent chasing tail and hanging with his buddies. Plus the Corps sucks the fun out of things like going to the range or 'camping' - a good chance, especially depending on his MOS, he won't want to go shooting the AR or doing shooting drills on his libo time.

As far as preparing for bootcamp, shooting should be way down the list - probably... not on the list. He needs to run and work on his pull ups. Then go run more. Then use that gun money to eat good now and be in good health before he goes to boot and gets skinny, gets pneumonia, gets leishmaniasis, ages a few years in a few months.... he needs to get his body in tip top shape so he can graduate on time and get on with more important things.

Another thing - some folks mentioned it - is storing a personally owned gun while in. I was in years ago now, but in my experience the battalion retards got sent to armory duty. Out of sight, out of mind. Those idiots would just finger all the junk in the armory while hiding out from working parties and field ops. I would not want anything nice kept in those racks with the goof troop. I had one (cheapo) shotgun I kept at a buddies place out in town, well later in my enlistment for shooting trap and skeet.

 

[GBMaryland]

Just get him a lightly worn Corps M-16, you know, like he’ll have in basic...

 

[reeljob]

Based upon advice you all have given, I'm not making any new purchases. He can familiarize himself with we already have and spend time understanding the mechanics of the system rather than marksmanship. As far as his health, he is a lean working out machine. He has hit the gym hard for three years because of sports and his personal desire to be fit. He is 5'11" and 150 lbs. Trim and lean and tough as nails. He runs cross country and does very well. How is his mental toughness? I'm sure he will find out soon enough. His ship date is September 8th, I support his decision completely. Once again, thanks for the words of wisdom.

 

[Strykervet]

Hey man, really the best advice on here is the ones telling him to stay away from the drinkie girls and all the shit right outside post. It's there to take your money and these are NOT girls you wanna fuck anyway...

THEN when he gets to his duty station, STILL stay away from whatever is right outside the gates (unless he needs gas or some cheap TA50 item from a surplus store). Don't buy a car right off post either.

 

[Luke]

Reeljob: I don't know if it's the same for the Marines as it was for the Army (in 2004 anyway), but in boot camp we had to memorize all sorts of things - Infantryman's Creed, General Orders, Army Song, Chain of Command from Platoon Sergeant all the way up to the president, etc. Most of these things I could have memorized beforehand and it would have made things a bit easier if I would have known them already. Between the sleep deprivation, physical exertion, etc, simple memorization become more of a chore...,

In short:
- Encourage him to PT even harder. This includes push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups, flutter kicks, burpees, rucking with weight (start around 20lbs and work up to 40-60lbs), ropes climbs, etc If possible, do as much as possible with a weighted vest on. Most recruits will be wearing body armor for the majority of training. It's not only the main muscle groups you're working on, but strengthening all the ancillary tendons, ligaments, and stabilizing muscles you don't even realize you had. It's not so much about being strong, but being tough. There are few people who don't pass because they're not strong enough, but many who fail because their feet are soft and they get major blisters, or pull a hamstring, or get shin splints, or dislocate a shoulder, etc.
- Have him start memorizing as much as possible - Rifleman's Creed, Marine Song, General Orders, Marine Chain of Command, etc (memorize all the rank insignias - you don't want to be calling a Captain a Sergeant...)
- Become familiar with the rifle: cleaning, assembly/disassembly, sight adjustment/zeroing, etc. The Marine Rifle Training Manual is freely available on the internet - use it.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Something like this, but all I had was some rimfire proficiency. I did as "explained'" to me by my DI's and PMI, and did fine. I'd leave it completely up to them.

He needs to be able to run, do sit-ups and pushups, and he'll be doing lots of them in Boot.

Maybe attitude is most important. Not I/me, but "This Recruit", and thinking in terms of we/unit rather than as an individual. There are no individuals in Boot.

Say "Sir". Yes, Sir, No, Sir, We'll find out, Sir.

Maintain a positive attitude and understand that a lot of youngsters went to, and made it through, Parris Island. It can be done, and finding out who's willing to quit is one of the key things the DI's are up to. Don't be "that guy".

Best to him from an Old Jarhead, class of '66. Not that much has changed...

Semper Fi!

Greg

 

[Ledzep]

Going to be an M16A4 most likely. 20" Chrome lined 1:7 govt. profile barrel, Flat top upper with a TA31RCO Trijicon (they don't qual with iron sights anymore). Will either be the round A2 handguards or the KAC RAS rail (non-Free floating). Standard gravel trigger, A2 grip, A2 stock. It wouldn't hurt to practice A2 style with iron sights. Everything you learn with irons will carry over to the Acog, and follow-on training with heavier weapons that don't have optics (M2, M249, M240, Mk19, etc..)

I'm sure you can find youtube videos of USMC instruction, but it largely follows NRA/Highpower in format for Table 1, the known distance range.

200yd:
Sitting slow fire 5 rounds 5 minutes on a 12" black circle
Kneeling slow fire 5 rounds 5 minutes on a 12" black circle
Standing slow fire 5 rounds in 5 minutes on a 12" black circle
Sitting rapid fire 10 rounds 1 minute on a "dog" target, simulates an upper torso

300yd:
Sitting slow fire 5 rounds 5 minutes on the 12" circle
Kneeling slow fire 5 rounds 5 minutes on a 12" circle <-- Maybe not? I can't remember if this is one or not
Prone rapid fire 10 rounds 1 minute on the "dog" target

500yd:
10 rounds slow fire on an "E-mod" sillhouette target

Wind is a real thing at 300 and especially 500yd on certain ranges, mostly west coast bases. I've had to hold on the targets to my left/right to hit mine. All things you'll be taught by the PMI's.

The TA31RCO is set up in meters and the yard lines are set up in yards. Windage is entirely holds, the elevation on the BDC doesn't usually match up. You'll be close enough at 200, maybe a touch high at 300, and the 500yd line will be about half way between the "4" and "5".

Then there's Table 2 which is not worth worrying about. The lowest I ever scored was 98/100. It's a couple of SLOW moving targets at 100yd and some up-close drills at 25yd. Remember sight over bore for the close ones for the T-box head shots.

I would focus on proper standing and kneeling positions. Sitting and prone are easy-- if you can hit black most of the time standing, you can hit it every time sitting or laying down.

 

[Reverie Ranges]

Likely he will do fine with a little training on an AR 5.56 platform. Just remember to teach: Breathe, Relax, Aim, Gently Squeeze the trigger. Lastly have him inspect the rifle well for any issues. I got to my first unit, smartly issued a company rifle and sent to the range. After a day of chasing rounds all over the 25m target, it turned out that the rifle barrel nut was loose. Screwed me up for years as I knew I could shoot, but had such a bad day...