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What would you like to see in a match?

H

huntinggamo

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 14, 2010
183
5
35
Northern Colorado, United States
Im currently in the process of putting together a local match, nothing is written in stone and everything is only in the planning stages. What i'm wanting to know is what would you like to see in a match. What have you done in past matches that stood out and you liked? what have you seen or done that you did not like?

one idea we are currently working on is the possibility of recreating real world engagements that have taken place in the past. does this sound like an intriguing idea? considerations to keep in mind are not having to reset or maintain long distance targets during the match, also being able to move shooters through stages in a timely manner.

I would appreciate input from everyone.
Match directors or anyone with experience, any tips/do's/Dont's?
 
square box range or wild blue yonder,,,,,do stuff that gets 'em out of the comfort zone,those that are astute, learn.

those long distance paper targets are best retrieved to the shooter, also knowledge gained.

movers are always a challenge, have one that lasts the whole match.

generally, mostly, and almost always, these matches are won 300yd and in so make the score collation snappy and accurate.
 
During movement... Let the semi auto guys put their safety's on vs having to lock back the bolt every friggen time.

Make the longer round count stages less complicated because too much problem solving is frustrating to most shooters. I want to be challenged to a degree but not have to be a super genius to figure out the best way to shoot a stage. I've literally had RO's yelling at me and kicking at my feet because they were out of the box a few inches when I was shooting prone. This was while shooting in a mock up house with a bunch of ports we had to shoot through - in all kinds of contorted positions and with many other stressor's included. One guy on our squad even had a AD on that stage which I attribute to being a nervous wreck by the time he got that far.
 
I'd like to see a "Spotter/Sniper" team match where not only they work together as in a real life sniper team, but also where the spotter engages short (er) range targets.
 
Have you shot the Raton or TriggerTime matches? In my opinion these are the funniest matches around here. Both are "Shoot-n-Scoot" matches, in that you squad up, move to the firing position shoot your string, packup and walk to the next firing position. The TTGC match also has a mover which is awesome! The Competition Dynamics matches (Steel Safari) are also fun and challenging and very well run. Their matches you're always on your own and have to find, range and engage you target on the clock without any assistance. TriggerTime's match has a stage from 1130y to 1340y, which I think is a little for most 6-6.5mm rifles, they also charge $100 which is a lot. Raton's mach is run like clockwork and always draws a good crowd, but usually requires a hotel stay.

I think some positional shooting is good, shooting off sticks keeps people honest, but too much funky positional stuff and it slows down the match and is more gimmick than anything else.

I am not sure where you are going to have your match, and what is possible or available at the location. PM me if you want some addition assistance or advice. They is a great group of local shooters that could help you out.

huntinggamo said:
the possibility of recreating real world engagements that have taken place in the past.
Click to expand...
This sounds kinda gimmicky to me.
 
Paper targets past 800-real results, not just a "ding" but scores/group size in the event of a tie.
 
You would first need to decide on the format for the match. The match could be for any of the following:

1. Precision rifles (aka "sniper" rifles)
2. Large caliber battle rifles scoped or not
3. Designated marksman rifles (more volume of fire, and less precision than true precision rifles)
4. individual rifleman (aka assault rifle) of any caliber
5. Extreme long range rifles (800-2000 yards)
6. Hunters rifle matches (light weight barreled hunting type rifles) usually from 50-700 yards

Some shooters complain because there aren't enough rounds fired, while others complain that there were too many rounds and the heat damages their barrel. I realize you can't please everyone, but without knowing the format you wish to use for your matches, it is difficult to give really helpful suggestions. If suggestions were made for individual rifleman type matches and you are planning on precision rifle matches, no matter how well intentioned the suggestions are, they would likely be fairly useless.
 
BOLTRIPPER said:
square box range or wild blue yonder,,,,,do stuff that gets 'em out of the comfort zone,those that are astute, learn.

those long distance paper targets are best retrieved to the shooter, also knowledge gained.

movers are always a challenge, have one that lasts the whole match.

generally, mostly, and almost always, these matches are won 300yd and in so make the score collation snappy and accurate.
Click to expand...

"wild blue yonder" is the plan, but we will most likely have a 100yd firing line for zero conformation, it could be worked into a stage. i would like to do paper at an extended range but how would you retrieve them and get all shooters through in a timely manner?

I would love to do a mover, ill have to start racking my brain as to how we could accomplish this.

Im not sure what your recommending as far as making the match snappy and accurate, can you elaborate?
 
steve123 said:
During movement... Let the semi auto guys put their safety's on vs having to lock back the bolt every friggen time.

Make the longer round count stages less complicated because too much problem solving is frustrating to most shooters. I want to be challenged to a degree but not have to be a super genius to figure out the best way to shoot a stage. I've literally had RO's yelling at me and kicking at my feet because they were out of the box a few inches when I was shooting prone. This was while shooting in a mock up house with a bunch of ports we had to shoot through - in all kinds of contorted positions and with many other stressor's included. One guy on our squad even had a AD on that stage which I attribute to being a nervous wreck by the time he got that far.
Click to expand...

I personally have no opposition to running a hot range, i prefer my ranges that way in fact. during the course of fire if movement is required i see no problem with engaging your safety and moving, but between stages and when not actively engaging targets i think it is a bad idea, to many retards out there... lol. if it was a more controlled environment maby. hopefully i understood that correctly.

we are trying to balance complicated with fun, some things are good to keep people on their toes, but to much can be overwhelming. we'll see what we can work out.
 
delfuego said:
Have you shot the Raton or TriggerTime matches? In my opinion these are the funniest matches around here. Both are "Shoot-n-Scoot" matches, in that you squad up, move to the firing position shoot your string, packup and walk to the next firing position. The TTGC match also has a mover which is awesome! The Competition Dynamics matches (Steel Safari) are also fun and challenging and very well run. Their matches you're always on your own and have to find, range and engage you target on the clock without any assistance. TriggerTime's match has a stage from 1130y to 1340y, which I think is a little for most 6-6.5mm rifles, they also charge $100 which is a lot. Raton's mach is run like clockwork and always draws a good crowd, but usually requires a hotel stay.

I think some positional shooting is good, shooting off sticks keeps people honest, but too much funky positional stuff and it slows down the match and is more gimmick than anything else.

I am not sure where you are going to have your match, and what is possible or available at the location. PM me if you want some addition assistance or advice. They is a great group of local shooters that could help you out.

This sounds kinda gimmicky to me.
Click to expand...

I have shot the SRM in raton, that was part of the inspiration for this match. but i dont want to copy their format. kind of thinking it would be nice to do something a little more complicated than raton, but not so physically exerting that everyone cant do it.

I think we will try to keep our max range right about 1K.

Part of the reason im wanting to get this match running up here is so that people don't have to do the hotel thing, i know alot of the shooters that go to raton are from the denver area so this would allow a 1 day format. and for the people coming from further away Fort collins has much better lodging, supply, and food options.

I understand $100 is alot, we were thinking right about $50 per entry, how does that sound?

as far as location we are evaluating several ranches in the foothills just north of fort collins along the 287 corridor.
 
Unknown said:
You would first need to decide on the format for the match. The match could be for any of the following:

1. Precision rifles (aka "sniper" rifles)
2. Large caliber battle rifles scoped or not
3. Designated marksman rifles (more volume of fire, and less precision than true precision rifles)
4. individual rifleman (aka assault rifle) of any caliber
5. Extreme long range rifles (800-2000 yards)
6. Hunters rifle matches (light weight barreled hunting type rifles) usually from 50-700 yards

Some shooters complain because there aren't enough rounds fired, while others complain that there were too many rounds and the heat damages their barrel. I realize you can't please everyone, but without knowing the format you wish to use for your matches, it is difficult to give really helpful suggestions. If suggestions were made for individual rifleman type matches and you are planning on precision rifle matches, no matter how well intentioned the suggestions are, they would likely be fairly useless.
Click to expand...

the plan at this time is precision rifle, we might be interested in doing a team match / spotter sniper, or adding in some other form of secondary weapon at a later date but to start with i think precision is where it is at.

just pulling this out of thin air but probably no more than 100rds for the match if we are running a precision only style.
 
I would start small for the first match or two (20 or less shooters). It will be hard to manage all those people and if there is an issue, you will have a clusterf***. This will let you work the bugs out and gauge if there is even room for 40-80 shooters. I would even dry-run the match with say 5 shooters to determine how long it will take and if there is a problem with a specific stage. One thing Mike's match does well if starting on time and finishing early. We always have to plan for weather in Colorado and you will want people to finish as early as possible to avoid a mess.

I personally do not think the Raton match is very physically challenging, there are 70 year old guys doing it! It's not F-Class after all. Some effort should be required :)

$50 seems reasonable depend on the value and quality of the match and if there is prize money. I would rather have no prize money and a lower entrance fee.

Unless you have a square High-Power range paper would be a nightmare. You could have a timed stage, a mover stage or stick stage that could be a Tie-Breaker stage. Were not shooting Benchrest either.

Go shoot Paul & Zach's (TriggerTime) match. It is a lot of fun and very challenging! Winner's high score usually has around a 50% hit rate.
 
huntinggamo said:
i would love to do this, do you have any recommendations as to how to move 40-80 shooters through this type of stage?
Click to expand...
An old fashion pit, pulling targets is part of the deal, using your two way radio, announce shooters number, target has number written on it prior to fire. X amount of shots later target is pulled, stacked, and new target installed, having two or three guys in pit would be best (along with video camera for the sore heads-you know the type-"Man I was cheated, my rifle always shoots 1/4MOA" ETC. ETC.). A natural gully or wash bed can be utilized, thus very little dirt has to be moved-nothing says it must be exactly at a given range!
 
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delfuego said:
I would start small for the first match or two (20 or less shooters). It will be hard to manage all those people and if there is an issue, you will have a clusterf***. This will let you work the bugs out and gauge if there is even room for 40-80 shooters. I would even dry-run the match with say 5 shooters to determine how long it will take and if there is a problem with a specific stage. One thing Mike's match does well if starting on time and finishing early. We always have to plan for weather in Colorado and you will want people to finish as early as possible to avoid a mess.

I personally do not think the Raton match is very physically challenging, there are 70 year old guys doing it! It's not F-Class after all. Some effort should be required :)

$50 seems reasonable depend on the value and quality of the match and if there is prize money. I would rather have no prize money and a lower entrance fee.

Unless you have a square High-Power range paper would be a nightmare. You could have a timed stage, a mover stage or stick stage that could be a Tie-Breaker stage. Were not shooting Benchrest either.

Go shoot Paul & Zach's (TriggerTime) match. It is a lot of fun and very challenging! Winner's high score usually has around a 50% hit rate.
Click to expand...

i would agree, and we are planning on running a few beta squads well before the first match. i was not saying that raton was physically challenging, i was saying i wanted it to be slightly more physically challenging than raton.
 
I really enjoyed shooting through woods at targets in and around old car , finding a target hidden in wood patch holding a weapon. All at steel city challenge/ Brock's gap
 
I have been doing a lot of thinking about how to build a mover, have several very workable solutions ranging from permanent install to portable.

How would you like to see a mover employed? small target up close, larger target out far? speed? single pass or circulating so you can shoot it whenever you want?

this might work out good for everyone, some of the ideas i have would be fairly cheap and easy to employ. look forward to some posts in the DIY section.
 
I would like to see a time frame for finding a target and then ranging and shooting a target. Putting the skills together that make it all happen.
 
steve123 said:
During movement... Let the semi auto guys put their safety's on vs having to lock back the bolt every friggen time.
Click to expand...

Is this really still mandated in some long range precision matches? If so, the MD's must not be aware of the hundreds of multi gun matches that are held each year where thousands of shooters move with rifles with the safeties off and, more importantly, their fingers OFF the trigger and muzzle pointed down range.
 
Last edited:
huntinggamo said:
i would love to do this, do you have any recommendations as to how to move 40-80 shooters through this type of stage?
Click to expand...

Don't worry about digging pits or using radios or cameras to incorporate 800yd paper targets into your match. The reason long range paper targets aren't used in these type matches is that they're not practical to score w/o a lot of down time. Steel for long range targets is the way to go to keep the match moving and help assure the shooters are having fun.

Please don't take offense to this question, but what is your level of experience in shooting long range precision matches? If minimal, it might be helpful to attend a few to get ideas for stage design and, more importantly, safety considerations.

Good luck with your matches!
 
David (DT1) is right on both of his last comments and puts on some fantastic matches which all have great feedback. As far as the mover make sure its not goign to be down or out of service. Nothing sucks more than for a person to get to a stage, clean it and then the stage points have to go away because the rest of the group couldnt shoot it because a mover is down. Ive seen issues with high dollar movers so make sure to test it very well before the match.
 
Very nearly O/T, I don't shoot the kinds of matches you're contemplating, but would if there could be some sort of accommodation for us older guys with heart conditions.

It could be as simple as simply taking and scoring the shot, skipping the physical challenge, taking zero points for the physical part, and then separating such scores into their own scoring group. I'd call it an Exempt scoring group.

My point is that folks like myself could endanger others if we got physically ragged, and/or endanger ourselves if our heart rate rises above a certain number and our implanted defibrillators go Ka-Whomp. Taking the physical part out lets such folks compete more safely.

Of course if we get kicked to the curb, that's just some more old news...

Greg
 
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Greg, I don't think there's any worry about you endangering anyone! To the contrary, we (ahem...) younger shooters could benefit from you more experienced guys presence at the matches. Good suggestion for a modified, less physical division, one that we'll consider for our future matches.
 
DT1 said:
Is this really still mandated in some long range precision matches? If so, the MD's must not be aware of the hundreds of multi gun matches that are held each year where thousands of shooters move with rifles with the safeties off and, more importantly, their fingers OFF the trigger and muzzle pointed down range.
Click to expand...

This was a couple years ago and it was in two different tactical matches. I haven't been to any other matches back east so I don't know what the rules are anywhere else or if the closer ones to me have changed their rules.
 
DT1 said:
Greg, I don't think there's any worry about you endangering anyone! To the contrary, we (ahem...) younger shooters could benefit from you more experienced guys presence at the matches. Good suggestion for a modified, less physical division, one that we'll consider for our future matches.
Click to expand...

I greatly appreciate your positive approach to the question.

I can't travel as much these days as once I did, but I hold significant hope that similar responses could develop within a shorter radius of my home.

Thank you for your kind response.

Best fortune to you, your match programs and your participants.

Greg
 
Try and keep the score for the various stages even. That way, if someone tubes one stage, or does great in another stage, it won't matter all that much. It will be the overall score that gets the highest end result. If you have large point differences, (10 on one and 20 on another), then someone with a bad or really good score on the 20 round stage would come out really well, when their other stage results weren't that great.

Another thought is using the very simple paladin system where everything comes back to time to complete the stage.

Movers are lots of fun, but usually expensive to set up.

100 rounds of precision rifle ammo will likely price many shooters out of the game, even if they reload. You are looking at $60 for ammo, plus gas, and entry fee, so a match could easily run $100 total. Many guys just can't afford to practice, AND shoot a $100 match every month. I would suggest shorter courses of fire, where your total round count is 40-70 rounds. Plus, you would get more variety in a number of shorter stages...more diversity to the courses of fire.
 
DT1 said:
Don't worry about digging pits or using radios or cameras to incorporate 800yd paper targets into your match. The reason long range paper targets aren't used in these type matches is that they're not practical to score w/o a lot of down time. Steel for long range targets is the way to go to keep the match moving and help assure the shooters are having fun.

Please don't take offense to this question, but what is your level of experience in shooting long range precision matches? If minimal, it might be helpful to attend a few to get ideas for stage design and, more importantly, safety considerations.

Good luck with your matches!
Click to expand...

I've been to exactly 1 tactical match that had a lot of (in fact mostly) paper targets.

BORING!!!

Not only that, but the format was you'd fire your entire stage at the target, and then it'd be pulled/scored (You didn't even get to see it scored until the end of the day). So you've got no feedback whatsoever on where your rounds are going. All you can do is SWAG the conditions and let it rip, hoping your bullets are going somewhere good.

LOUSY!!!

Now, I don't mind when a match has a little paper included. A "test your limits" or "know your limits" or "dot drill" is a good stage for paper. In fact, having one stage as described above (no feedback) would make a fine addition to a tactical match, but lots of paper at a tactical match leaves a lot to be desired in my opinion. Don't forget you get to spend half your time in the pits pulling for other shooters. No thanks.
 
^^^^Agree 100%! There are other shooting events that involve shooting long range paper if you're interested in that type of thing. F-Class and Hi Power to name a couple.

The best advice I could give a new match director for long range precision matches would be:
1) Attend a few as a shooter and/or RO to gain experience
2) Assure that the most important consideration is safety
3) Keep things fairly simple at first. This includes stage design and scoring
4) Get some good people to help you. Otherwise you'll burn out from doing all the work
5) After safety, the main focus should be on making the match FUN. People want to shoot fun matches!
 
Don't have stupid rules, common sense and safety are all that's needed. Use and shoot what you can carry. Only limit bullet speed as that's what destroyed targets.

Don't have ridiculous shooting positions and scenarios... no stupid human tricks, no special Olympic events, no shoot houses that are the size of a kids playhouse, no 2-minute time limits to engage 14 targets, run 100-yards, and then engage another 14 targets.

Entry fee should be no more than $50, unless it's a premier event with a generous prize table.

Start the match early and on time.

Have some targets out to 1200 or 1400-yards, and space the distances out equally with number of targets, so as not one caliber has a distinct advantage over another.

Make the targets small enough to make the course challenging. Throw some 1-MOA size targets out there.

Make the decision early whether you want it to be a tactical precision rifle match, or a high volume fast paced, high round count carbine event. I think most people here want an event where accuracy, skill, and precision are required vs. speed and and high round count.

Don't bother wasting time with paper targets, put some "know your limits" targets out there.
 
I agree on the entry fees for some of the matches that don't have larger prize tables even though in a lot of the cases the match fee is the cheapest part of the equation. Honestly I just want to shoot some more smaller one day matches more often :)

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
As stated earlier, a team match would be great, there aren't enough of those around. The Wyoming Tactical Rifle Championship (WTRC) is a great team event, realistic scenario's in true field conditions. You could have a match similar to that. Spotter/carbine shooter and precision rifle shooter. Limit the carbine to 18" barrel length and a military caliber. Throw in some pistol targets that have to be engaged, (and hit) to proceed to the next shooting position.

Also, forgot to add earlier, schedule the event well in advance, and not on the same weekend as SRM/Raton, Snipers Hide Cub, T3 Ranch match, WTRC, or the Cross-C Ranch match.
 
Oh and allow electronic sights for all pistol portions in matches :) sorry had to throw that in there :)

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
Some general thoughts:

If you want to keep shooters with precision 5.56mm AR-15's in your match consider keeping all your targets inside 700-800 yds max.... And you don't need long range to necessarily challenge shooters. Make them use their reticles, instead of dialing for example under time constraints.

Consider NOT having a sight-in/warm up range. Then present as your first evolution a 500 to 600 yd single cold bore shot on a 8" plate. It's much harder than you think.....

An other evolution that most shooters find challenging is the multiple target shot from a single prone position. What I mean is, place say 5 targets in a 140 degree arc in front of the shooter, all at different ranges. The shooter is prone, and the RO stands behind the shooter, and tells him which of the 5 targets to engage in under 5 seconds.

Another eye opener is an 8.5x11 paper hostage style target set at 7-10 yds (yes, 21 to 30 feet), offhand. Shooters will be challenged by the mechanical offset necessary to hit it in the precise spot....
 
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