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What's important to you. Quality or Price?

What's important to you. Quality or Price?

  • 12" Square Plasma Cut Target @ $50

    Votes: 20 37.0%
  • 12" Square Waterjet Target @ $75

    Votes: 34 63.0%

  • Total voters
    54

Big Dog Steel

Premium AR500 Targets
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 30, 2008
1,148
29
Lima, OH
www.bigdogsteel.com
Big Dog Steel has been fortunate enough to purchase a larger facility that will better serve us now, and for the foreseeable future. With the new space comes new challenges as well as some new opportunities. One of the opportunities that we have now with more space is to fill it with some better equipment.

If you've ever talked to me about targets you know I'm obsessed with offering the highest quality target we can come up with. For me that solution has always been waterjet cutting hand selected grades of AR500 from top US sources. This sort of quality does not come cheap. There are a lot of companies out there that claim air to air plasma is just as good and that you won't notice a difference. If you are a casual shooter and you shoot steel every once in a blue moon, that may be true. However, at a recent match in TN there were two major target failures. Both of these targets were ATA plasma cut and both of them had the corners of the target completely broke off. The manufacturer is a hide vendor so I won't call him out, but the targets were not that old. The problem was that the small area between the bolt holes and the edge of the plate had become brittle, cracked and then failed. While a waterjet target may fail over time they do not have the same sort of problems that an air to air plasma cut target will in regards to a heat affected zones. However, CNC Air to Air plasma is the cheapest machine you could purchase as far as initial investment, operating cost, consumables, etc. especially when compared to HD plasma, laser or waterjet. Oxy-fuel is another option for cutting steel but not a very good solution for cutting quenched and tempered material.

With all that said... What would you rather have; Quality or a Cheaper price?

Honestly, I would not consider a straight air to air, cnc plasma with a down draft table a very good solution for cutting quenched and tempered material like AR500. However, there are compromises that can be made. One of the machines we are considering purchasing is a new high definition plasma cutter with a watertable. High definition plasma has been around since the 90's, but has really taken some significant steps forward in the last few years. The high density plasma cutters have much higher energy per square inch than air to air and typically use oxygen and compressed air or another gas to help shield the cut, depending on material. The hd cuts as a whole are much straighter, have less taper, and have less dross on the back of material. HD systems also typically cut holes better than air to air. The hd plasma has a smaller kerf which also results in a less heat being transferred to the material. The addition of the watertable helps keep the heat from spreading after the cut. As nice as these newer machines are, they don't come without a price and typically cost twice as much in initial cost compared to standard air to air plasma. However, this machine would allow us to expand and improve on our existing econoline of targets. It would also give us the ability to cut a few small parts that we typically waterjet or laser cut and would save a little more money.

Even the HD plasma with a watertable will still transfer heat into the edges of the material though. Nothing that cuts with heat can cut through a material without making it hot enough to melt. A waterjet is still the best way to accomplish a no heat cutting solution, but typically cost more than twice as much in initial investment, and even more to operate when it comes to consumables and garnet used to make the actual cut. The other option for us is to purchase a new waterjet which would expand our current cutting capabilities. Purchasing this new machine would be a huge investment. In the last few years I have managed to not raise the price on our standard product line of targets. With a new machine in the shop we would have to look at raising the price on a few of the targets. However, the increase in cost seen by you the consumer would not be huge, more than likely in the 5% or lower range.

So I ask you again, Quality or cheaper price? If I give you an example target such as a 12" Circle or Square would you rather have the plasma cut target @ $50 or the waterjet cut target @ $75?
 
IMO quality is everything when it comes to steel targets. There is nothing more annoying than targets going down during a shoot.
 
I vote for quality EVERY time. While it is great to save some coin now and then, especially on costly items that have a somewhat limited service life, when it comes to having to sacrifice quality, durability and longevity for that cheaper price point...then the savings just don't add up for me.

If I've typed in once here, I have typed is 1k times...BUY ONCE, CRY ONCE!!! ;)
 
Some people are going to want quality if they're shooting fast, high caliber bullets. Others may just want a cheap plate to shoot pistol and 22lr at. It would probably be a better business decision to produce both.

Sent from GS3 Synergy
 
Surgikill...We currently do produce both. Our standard line is waterjet cut premium AR500. Our econoline is unpainted, plasma or laser cut AR500. The decision is to expand the econoline with lower cost targets and offer more options or spend the coin on a new waterjet. Buying a new jet would expand our capabilities and virtually eliminate lead times for custom targets. The trade off is a slight increase in price to our standard product line.
 
We had shit loads of steels made up for the SDM school. What we did was have what I think was .75" AR500 (it may have been thicker/tougher or a different steel --a silhouette was about 300lbs., peppers about 100) cut and made to order. I forget what they cut 'em out with, but pretty sure it was plasma and they touched the edges up with a grinder so they weren't rough. But I forget. We had about 30-40 steels.

I do recall the legs were thick angle iron simply welded to the back. When they wore or broke, they got cut off and re-welded. Fence pickets didn't last as long as the tough angle iron did. There were no holes on the front of the target. I think studs may have been welded to the back at one point for repair, but I think the vibrations snap 'em loose over time.

These targets got used more than any single individual will ever use them.

The only target ever penetrated was from a Raufoss .50BMG round --it went through two of them.

I was gonna have some made this year by an armor company in Oregon but they went under. They had this mil something armor (long number, stronger than AR500) that they use on custom armored vehicles. That's the stuff to find if you can.

These targets can be a total pain in the ass, or they can last a lifetime. It's up to you. I tend to have 'em made as opposed to purchasing already made ones.
 
They were more than likely made of Mil-Std A46100e which is a homogeneous armor plate with a brinell hardness range similar to AR500, although chemically different. We made a bunch of stuff out of 3/4" A46100e earlier this year. Tough stuff, however it is hard to weld on and extremely expensive when compared to AR500. Typically we would make a bracket to hold the material or bolt onto and not weld on the steel, although 3/4" true armor plate is in a league of its own when compared 3/8" or 1/2" thick AR500. The material is not hard to find, there are several US suppliers. It is really the cost that is prohibitive. For the record AR500 is not armor plate, it is actually wear plate that is used in forestry and mining equipment. It just happens to have very good high impact resistant qualities. Anyone who call AR500 "armor plate" usually doesn't know jack, so take that for what it is worth.
 
I vote for quality. Also as a businessman the old adage, "buy once cry once", applies just like if I was buying a laser range finder, buy a less expensive one and be disappointed and end up buying the right one the second time is not good economics. I have always bought the best tools and or equipment to get the job done. It makes the job easier, produces a better product, and last longer than the cheaper stuff. I say go for it. I also think it's good business to have both top of the line product as well as a more affordable product. Sell to the masses and dine with the classes.
 
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Good idea to have a premium and economy product
Id spend my money once on the premium product
 
I would wonder what your sales are like of the econoline vs the premium? The issue you may have is an educational one. When people are surfing around the web looking for steel targets - they may not be aware of any difference - just thinking "Steel is steel" as long as its AR500. Those people are likely only going to look at the price of the same size targets across the board.

If your finding the majority of your sales are premium steel, and its difficult to keep up with orders - I would say go that direction. If your getting a lot more orders in the econoline then I would say expand that direction for now.

Personally - based on the explanation you gave here on the differences, my purchasing decision would be for the more expensive premium target - especially in that price point - as the difference isn't that great between the two. If the prices were higher where the % difference was the same but the $$ were more significant, it would become a more difficult decision.
 
if a texas star target system than quality on the paddle arms and econo on the base/center, if something like a plate rack or dueling tree economy on the rack and quality on the plates, if straight plates quality all the way, thats my input on AR500 armor plates
 
Honestly, I'd love to see some science put to this. Same steel cut both ways and torture tested. That would put any questions to sleep about if it's worth it. In this case, it's $25, so that seems like an easy call for a consumer. But when you start getting to the more expensive targets or if you're looking to buy a fair amount of steel, it adds up. I've bought good steel and seen it eaten up just the same as any other on an edge hit. Lower cost might make it easier to swallow the idea that these are less of an investment that you will pass down through 17 generations and more like a rifle barrel that you know one day needs to go.
 
I voted for quality, and here's why-
We each buy any product from certain vendors or manufacturers at our desired (or perceived) point along the scale of price vs quality, and from experience I purchase from you what I believe to be high quality, but not the cheapest possible price on the internet.
In my use I honestly don't beat on my steel plates that hard. However a couple years ago I bought a couple plates from another known steel vendor here, and they turned out to be crap. Soft, cratered, and in short order split and broke between the holes and edge. Just junk, both of them (and yes they were advertised to be AR500).
Of the 6 pieces I've bought from you, only that skull from the group buy a couple years ago eventually succumbed, and that was from ridiculous amounts of abuse at group shoots. So when I want a quality piece I don't want to try to figure out what's "bargain line" or not, or who has the best price by $5, I'm just going to buy from experience and ring you up for the good stuff. That's why I would buy from you. Sometimes cheap junk is fine for it's intended purpose, but for that leave that to the other guys. Don't dilute.
 
I would wonder what your sales are like of the econoline vs the premium? The issue you may have is an educational one. When people are surfing around the web looking for steel targets - they may not be aware of any difference - just thinking "Steel is steel" as long as its AR500. Those people are likely only going to look at the price of the same size targets across the board.

If your finding the majority of your sales are premium steel, and its difficult to keep up with orders - I would say go that direction. If your getting a lot more orders in the econoline then I would say expand that direction ....
I have to agree with this. While there's little doubt that most will speak for quality and may very well mean it, i have to believe that there are many people who just want their own steel and do not have the expectation that it will be hammered by thousands of rounds a week. These are more likely to be shopping the interweb for price.

Of course, as mentioned, your own market experience may be the most valuable piece of data you have at your disposal. What are your actual customers buying the most of?

Personally, I'll always tell you I prefer quality over price, but when it comes to my personal shooting needs, where the steel will likely only ever see a thousand hits a year, I'd probably buy the plasma. Truth.
 
I don't choose BETWEEN quality and price... I look for the best balance of quality AND price (AKA value), it's not an either/or. For the specifics you mention in your original post I would go for the higher quality higher price target. The extra $25 is marginal IMHO.
 
I voted before having read your initial post. Having read it now I think I would change my vote to quality. I had no idea those issues even existed.
 
I am a value shopper like mentioned above. I will shop for the best compromise between value and price. I love to shoot steel targets but do not get the chance to shoot as much as I would like to me I would rather buy the $50 plate knowing I am not going to shoot it as much and spend the extra $25 on more bullets. My guess is if you are trying to sell these to people beside the guys on the hide you will have greater sales of the economy line vs. the premium line. Not everyone that will be buying them will be the hard-core shooters that a lot of the guys on here are. Joe-bob who wants a steel plate to hang out on the back 40 and shoot it every-once and a while is going to buy the $50 plate and be happy with it. That being said you have two different types of consumers to cater too.

If I were buying steel for matches I go quality all the way. Because target failure at matches is not a good thing.
 
I have prolly 8 of your plates and stands and have been beating the tar out of them for several years now, even loaning them out for matches. Never a failure except a chain on a swinger (wasn't your chain). Cheaper would have been nice but the performance was there so I'm not complaining. I can see the argument for a cheaper alternative if you don't shoot much though.

Shouldn't be hard to make both a match grade and standard set-up... Problem is that the standard (cheaper) versions will experience more failures and therefore more complaints.
 
Having purchased and shot several steel targets in the last 6+ years including MGMs, DC welding, LEtargets, I feel confident in stating this:

Quality product which is up to 25% more than the next lower quality steel combined with low shipping wins every time.

Purchased some "AR550" steel targets from ebay, only to center punch a hole in the first one i shot with a .556 at 150+ yards..
 
Surgikill...We currently do produce both. Our standard line is waterjet cut premium AR500. Our econoline is unpainted, plasma or laser cut AR500. The decision is to expand the econoline with lower cost targets and offer more options or spend the coin on a new waterjet. Buying a new jet would expand our capabilities and virtually eliminate lead times for custom targets. The trade off is a slight increase in price to our standard product line.

The next obvious question would be what grade of plate sells more. I'm sure you went through this. Opinions on a forum aren't the same as money In the pocket.

Sent from GS3 Synergy
 
Quality

If i just want something that goes "clang" then i have a local shop cut up whatever scrap they have. Costs next to nothing and i can still scrap it out when i finally break it or hole it.

If I am buying from a Steel Target Company it has to be quality.

Also, by quality, I don't mean it has to look pretty. It's going to look ugly after the first use. However the welds need to look better than something a drunk monkey with a stick welder is capable of. Otherwise I might as well weld the supports myself.

Conversely though, you can't go too expensive otherwise it is cheaper to have a local shop buy a sheet of AR500 and cut a mess of targets at one time.