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Rifle Scopes What's the difference Mil vs. MOA

Re: What's the difference Mil vs. MOA

Hey Salmonaxe - we know what LINEAR system of measurement they taught you in grade school - what ANGULAR system of measurement did they teach you in grade school?
 
Re: What's the difference Mil vs. MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Doug Kelley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You get finer tuning with MOA adjustments than mil turrets. Esspecially if you have a 1/8 MOA turret.</div></div>

What .11 of a inch ... thats the difference between .25 MOA and 1/10th a Mil

1/8 Minute adjustments have no business on a tactical scope what so ever. </div></div>

Actually, .1 mil is REAL close to 1/3 MOA. It is a nice place to be if you think 1/2 is to rough and 1/4 is to fine.

+1 on the 1/8 knobs, no business in a tactical aplication.
 
Re: What's the difference Mil vs. MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Salmonaxe - we know what LINEAR system of measurement they taught you in grade school - what ANGULAR system of measurement did they teach you in grade school?
</div></div>

Degrees broken down into minutes. Practical geometry. I was never good at trig, so radians were only just touched on. Never once used gradians.
 
Re: What's the difference Mil vs. MOA

musta been an advanced grade school then. I didn't get geometry until 10th grade, and even then we did not do measurement with it other than applying algebraic formulas which then could be applied to any linear measurement system.

My point being, you never really learned an angular measurement system tied to a specific linear system, so why claim that you are skilled at something (IPHY) based on your education when in fact you are not?

I've got hears of practice with the MOA system from shooting highpower on KD ranges, but when it came to the tactical discipline I went ahead and picked up mil-radian because it is the de facto standard. Yes I learned about inches all the way through school - but it is not an angular system, so learning THE de facto standard for the discipline was not difficult or a decision I even pondered.

Notice not once in this explanation has the term metric come up. Much like geometry, the mil-radian angular measurement system can be applied to ANY linear system. It just so happens, purely by coincidence (research the origins of both systems for yourself - I have) that mil-radian and the metric system line up so close that the two don't deviate until the 8th digit to the right of the decimal point.

My only cheat in the whole process is to understand that for wind calls a tenth mil click scope works out to about 3 clicks per MOA, a convenient fact.
 
Re: What's the difference Mil vs. MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">mil-radian and the metric system line up so close that the two don't deviate until the 8th digit to the right of the decimal point..</div></div>

...it's not really that metric units especially "line up".

*DANGER. MATH NERDERY AHEAD*

Imagine you cut a piece out of a perfectly round pie -- and are very careful so that the cuts you make go exactly to the center of the pie and therefore the cut edges of the piece of pie are exactly the same length.

If the angle between your two cut edges are the pie is exactly 1 radian, then the curved part of your piece of pie, if you were to take a bendy measuring tape and measure it, would have the exact same length has each of the sides that you cut.

A milliradian (mil) is 1/1000th of a mil -- this would be a VERY skinny piece of pie where the length of your cut edges is exactly 1000 times the length of the "curved" part of your piece of pie (again, if measured with a bendy measuring tape).

When we are ranging a target or whatnot using MILs, we are basically "cutting off" the round outer "crust" portion of our pie, making a straight line between the original two cut edges of our piece of pie -- and then pretending that the distance of the line created by our new cut is the same distance as the curved edge of the original piece of pie. It's a very close approximation for the very small (milliradian scale) angles that we are dealing with (like NineHotel said, out to the 8th decimal point or something)...

But the point I want to make is that this isn't really that it "almost lining up" with metric distances -- it's that we are using a straight line distance to approximate a curved distance. We do this because it is a) A very very close approximation for the angles involved in shooting, so close that for our purposes, the error involved is completely insignificant; and b) it allows us to use simple ratios to estimate distance.

For shooting purposes it's best to think about the ratio aspect of it:

When your target appears exactly one mil high in your scope, then the distance TO the target is VERY close to 1000 times the height of the target. It doesn't matter what unit of distance you use: feet, meters, yards, inches... the ratio is the same.

If the target appears 1 mil tall, then:

A 1-inch tall target ~= 1000 inches away
A 1-foot tall target ~= 1000 feet away
A 1-yard tall target ~= 1000 yards away
A 1-meter tall target ~= 1000 meters away
etc.

Those are all 'extremely' close approximations. There's nothing innately special about metric measurements that make them "work" with MILs. Metric measurements are NICE sometimes because they are base-10 and you don't have to worry about dividing or multiplying by some arbitrary number to convert between units (feet, yards, inches..), and instead can just shift the decimal points.

Anyway, the moral of the story is that the association between MILs and metric measurements is purely in our heads (possibly encouraged by some scopes marking their .1 MIL clicks as "1cm @ 100 meters"... but really they could just as easily mark it ".01 yards @ 100 yards" -- it's just that it happens we aren't very good at thinking about ".01 yards"
smile.gif
)

-Matt
 
Re: What's the difference Mil vs. MOA

The approximation <span style="font-style: italic">"1 MOA is 1 inch @ 100 yards"</span> has <span style="font-weight: bold">more error</span> than the approximation <span style="font-style: italic">"1 MOA is 3 cm @ 100m"</span>.
 
Re: What's the difference Mil vs. MOA

Matt,

Thanks for dumbing that down to my 3rd grade level of math comprehension.

*removes shoes to count above 10*

-Pat
 
Re: What's the difference Mil vs. MOA

Hi guys, it's always hard to tell if the way you are trying to explain something will make sense to anybody else, so I'm glad you found it helpful. Just remember, no matter what anybody tells you, Pi does not taste like pie
smile.gif


-Matt
 
Re: What's the difference Mil vs. MOA

I am in the market for a long distance scope. 600+yards and did not understand the diff between MOA and Mil. Your comment has made me feel less stupid.

I guess what I need is one with the finest adjustments. At 100yards not a big deal but out to 600+ every adjustment counts. I guess the MOA has finer adjustments than the Mil to fine tune the long distance placement if I understood what everyone was saying.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated,

4 Legged
 
Re: What's the difference Mil vs. MOA

1/4 MOA clicks would be approx 2.5 inches at 1000 yards per click.
0.1 mil clicks would be 3.6 inches at 1000 yards per click.
0.1 mil clicks are fine enough for anything other than benchrest.
 
Re: What's the difference Mil vs. MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1/4 MOA clicks would be approx 2.5 inches at 1000 yards per click.
0.1 mil clicks would be 3.6 inches at 1000 yards per click.
0.1 mil clicks are fine enough for anything other than benchrest. </div></div>

+1