Whats your SD (PRS/ELR)

[kthomas]

This is my approach as well (though I dont claim to be anymore than an a novice load developer). Its very interesting when you lay a single line down vs several on the graph. Suffice it to say, it seems the true Saterlee is a 50/50 crapshoot at best.

I'm also not going to claim to be some sort of a reloading expert. It's a continual evolution of knowledge, some of which I've typed up here for the sake of this conversation.

When I first got started in reloading, I would always see people post up their ~3-5 round chronograph readings on social media, thinking those were consistent results these people were getting. It was frustrating, as I wouldn't get these consistently sub ~5-10 fps ES spreads that people were posting online.

Come to find out through my own testing and experience, as well as reflecting back on my rusty knowledge on statistics from college years ago, I came to realize that those ~3-5 round chronograph readings weren't painting the whole picture and that those were cherry picked chronograph readings that were posted for the sake of vanity. You rarely if ever see people post 10+ shot chronograph readings on social media - it doesn't paint as pretty of a picture. But I guess that's the whole crux of social media, creating an illusion that something is better then it really is.

Reloading is time consuming, and it's easy to "chase ghosts" that really aren't there, especially if you are operating under expectations set out by social media. I keep it pretty simple, and draw the line when it's "good enough" for me and my purposes. The time trying to squeeze out that last ~1% of performance from your reloads is much better spent on the range.

 

[clcustom1911]

On a similar statistical sample size note, the Nosler RDF bullets taught me that you can't trust 3 shot groups for shit .

I used to test bullet seating depth with just 3 rounds per, which worked good enough for me at the time with more consistent bullets such as Berger Hybrids, but I was pulling my hair with RDF's.

I would shoot some of the smallest 3 round groups with the RDF's when doing load development, thinking I had an amazing one hole load worked up for my gun. Load up a bunch of rounds with the "winning" depth from the bullet seating depth, and I would be frustrated to find out that I actually had ammo that would be lucky to break 1 moa for 5 round groups

I could never crack the RDF nut. Happily went back to Berger's after that short failed experiment. It certainly taught me something though.

130 RDF = grape shot. They shoot good enough for some of my uses, but I am a 142 SMK guy now.

 

[Ksracer]

See here for more detail:

How Much Does Group Size Matter?

As long-range shooters, we tend to obsess over every little detail. We think everything is important...

precisionrifleblog.com

[/QUOTE]

According to that chart, going from a .3moa rifle to a .5moa could easily be the difference between winning a competitive 100rnd match and not making the top 3. And that's before you toss in a few sub-moa tyl's and troop lines @ 800yds or farther.

Wind reading and marksmanship is and always will be king, but the difference between winning and fifth place usually comes down to who consistently hit the small targets. Not who hit the most big ones because you can't afford to miss any of those anymore if you want a trophy.

P.S. for those that are going to point out that my rifle may not be a true .3moa gun because I don't shoot 50rnd groups with it, (you'd probably be right) just look at the difference between a .5moa rifle and a 1moa one.

 

[clcustom1911]

I'm also not going to claim to be some sort of a reloading expert. It's a continual evolution of knowledge, some of which I've typed up here for the sake of this conversation.

When I first got started in reloading, I would always see people post up their ~3-5 round chronograph readings on social media, thinking those were consistent results these people were getting. It was frustrating, as I wouldn't get these consistently sub ~5-10 fps ES spreads that people were posting online.

Come to find out through my own testing and experience, as well as reflecting back on my rusty knowledge on statistics from college years ago, I came to realize that those ~3-5 round chronograph readings weren't painting the whole picture and that those were cherry picked chronograph readings that were posted for the sake of vanity. You rarely if ever see people post 10+ shot chronograph readings on social media - it doesn't paint as pretty of a picture. But I guess that's the whole crux of social media, creating an illusion that something is better then it really is.

Reloading is time consuming, and it's easy to "chase ghosts" that really aren't there, especially if you are operating under expectations set out by social media. I keep it pretty simple, and draw the line when it's "good enough" for me and my purposes. The time trying to squeeze out that last ~1% of performance from your reloads is much better spent on the range.

Going along with you, whenever I have a 5 round SD of 5, I know it's likely going to be a SD of 10 or so over 20 rounds with my reloading practices and equipment.

I did a 20 shot test with my 130 6.5 CR load, and 5 rounds was a SD of 8 and velocityof 2892, the next 15 brought the SD up to 14 and velocity down to 2887.

With a different primer, the 5 shot SD was 8, the 20 shot SD event up to 10.

That was the first and probably only time I will measure a large strings like that because both loads were hammering at 600. Beautiful day.

 

[kthomas]

On top of that, there's a psychological component as well to a good shooting rifle & ammo combination. If you have ammo that you are confident in, and any shooter will be more confident with a 0.30 MOA load then a 1 MOA load, there's going to be positive psychological benefits to that. Perhaps there won't be much of a downrange difference on a ~2-3 MOA plate, but certainly on stages where the plates are smaller.

On the flip side, there's also more then a few top PRS shooters that have admitted to winning PRS/NRL matches with barrels that were shot out and past their prime. Jake Vibbert and Jon Pynch were some that have stated that, that was brought up in a conversation in on of their podcasts.

But I will agree that a better shooting rifle + ammo combo will be nothing but a benefit to the shooter. It's up to the individual shooter to decide what that looks like for them. For me, I like to have my loads shooting consistently between ~0.30-0.50 MOA (and they definitely have produced groups even better then that).

 

[kthomas]

Going along with you, whenever I have a 5 round SD of 5, I know it's likely going to be a SD of 10 or so over 20 rounds with my reloading practices and equipment.

I did a 20 shot test with my 130 6.5 CR load, and 5 rounds was a SD of 8 and velocityof 2892, the next 15 brought the SD up to 14 and velocity down to 2887.

With a different primer, the 5 shot SD was 8, the 20 shot SD event up to 10.

That was the first and probably only time I will measure a large strings like that because both loads were hammering at 600. Beautiful day.

In all honesty I was probably being generous on the SD of 5 over large strings of fire, I don't have my books in front of me (they are not even in the same country as me right now), but the SD trends between ~5-10 SD over large strings of fire. Probably closer to and SD of 8 on large strings, with 10 shot strings hovering around the ~4-6 SD most commonly.

And yeah, if it shoots great at the distances you are shooting, that's really all that matters. Sometimes we get too wrapped up in the numbers and forget what really matters.

 

[clcustom1911]

In all honesty I was probably being generous on the SD of 5 over large strings of fire, I don't have my books in front of me (they are not even in the same country as me right now), but the SD trends between ~5-10 SD over large strings of fire. Probably closer to and SD of 8 on large strings, with 10 shot strings hovering around the ~4-6 SD most commonly.

And yeah, if it shoots great at the distances you are shooting, that's really all that matters. Sometimes we get too wrapped up in the numbers and forget what really matters.

I was caught in the numbers for a 5-6 year span. Said fuck it, I'm done experimenting. I have a 130 load with RL16 and H4350 and a 142-147 load with RL16, H4350, and RL26.

Load and shoot. Tweak charge or seating depth if need be.

 

[Ksracer]

On top of that, there's a psychological component as well to a good shooting rifle & ammo combination. If you have ammo that you are confident in, and any shooter will be more confident with a 0.30 MOA load then a 1 MOA load, there's going to be positive psychological benefits to that. Perhaps there won't be much of a downrange difference on a ~2-3 MOA plate, but certainly on stages where the plates are smaller.

On the flip side, there's also more then a few top PRS shooters that have admitted to winning PRS/NRL matches with barrels that were shot out and past their prime. Jake Vibbert and Jon Pynch were some that have stated that, that was brought up in a conversation in on of their podcasts.

But I will agree that a better shooting rifle + ammo combo will be nothing but a benefit to the shooter. It's up to the individual shooter to decide what that looks like for them. For me, I like to have my loads shooting consistently between ~0.30-0.50 MOA (and they definitely have produced groups even better then that).

Even the individual match will weigh in how important accuracy is. Go to a historically windy range where the targets tend to be bigger, and wind reading will heavily outweigh rifle accuracy. Go to a sheltered BR range with shooting lanes cut out through trees with smaller targets and the edge may go to the more accurate rifle.