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Which Group Is Better .., why do you think so??

#101
Re: Which Group Is Better .., why do you think so??

OK,

I'll play. I'm going to load up 3 rounds at 40.0 and 3 rounds at 43.5 ..... I'm going to shoot using my current set up, then I'll shoot using a differnt scope. We'll see if the results are the same. If both test groups are similar, the scope is fine and we can stop any further discussion on the matter. If they are different, then the scope is bad and I'll admit it.
 
#102
Re: Which Group Is Better .., why do you think so??

Right now we are getting somwhere. I hope your scope is fine but you will never be 100% sure until you suspect it and prove one way or the other. Then move on to something else that may be an issue.
The scope is always a good place to start as it can be easily changed by the shooter . Another way is to take your scope and fit it too another rifle that is know for it's consistant accuracy and if that rifle suddenly changes it's accuracy level then that is a good indication because it also takes your rifle out of the equasion.
 
#103
Re: Which Group Is Better .., why do you think so??

Ok,

So here's how todays events unfolded.

I got online and read the recents post. I looked outside and saw the sun was out and alot of the snow is now gone. I figured today was a good day to go back to the range. I loaded up 6 at 40.2 and 6 at 43.5 and packed up my stuff and headed off to the range. I'm happy to get out to shoot again and chomping at the bit to show these guys once and for all (this part was written jokingly).

I get to the range and get my stuff set up. I throw a paper target up (on the empty line next to mine) and zero my scope to the 40.2 grain load. Eventually, I'm dead center in the bull and grouping nicely. I tell myself ..... now lets go show these fuckers (this part is also written jokingly .... please don't take offense) that I can shoot and my stuff aint broke. My scope is sighted nicely and I'm ready to shoot some groups ..... for all to see. In the meantime, someone takes the lane next to me and I let my sight in target go since he want to shoot too. So, I don't have the zero'd target to show. But, that doesn't really matter anyway.

I get onto my new targets with a bunch of black dots on it. I put 5 rounds (of 40.2 grains) into my rifle. I'm smokin hot today, the weather is perfect. It's warmed up nicely. The sun is out and I'm ready to start assassinating these dirty little black dots. I get myself comfortable, ease down behind the rifle. Find my target and start to breath slowly and evenly. I relax myself and check for good parrallax. I steady myself and steady the grip on my rifle. I slowly ease my finger onto the trigger and very evenly press the trigger getting a really nice even pull and my first round hits the target (after zeroing to this particular load). I continue to look through the scope and cycle the action pushing in a fresh round. And, as I am settling down for a followup shot, I notice the first shot was NOT in the black dot. So, I fire two more. They all group into a very nice little bughole overlapping each other. Unfortunately ....... they fucking landing about 5 inches low in the 6 oclock position. So, I fire the next two just to get them out of my rifle, not really caring where they land. I push the rifle away from me. Clear the line and make sure it's cold and went down range to get my target and here is what I saw ...........


2012-01-21_16-13-19_271.jpg



At this point, I'm astonished and horrified. I'm astonished that the scope zero'd in for a fourth time when I was firing the first string on the first target. And, horrified that the rounds hit five inches low on the second target. Now I gotta get back online and eat fucking CROW and admit the scope is bad and admit that I was wrong. So, I pack up all my shit. Not very happy and get to think about 1. what I'm gonna write in the nasty email to Vortex and 2. What I'm gonna write when I get back online and have to admit that I was Sooooo Fucking wrong .... LOL.

So, I decided I would appologize to everyone that said it was my scope ..... but not appologize to everyone that said it was my shooting ...... LOL. So, to those who said it was my scope, I appologize. I was wrong and my scope was indeed bad. You were right and I thank you for sticking with the thread. I just can't understand how a bad scope goes back to zero for the first shots of every range trip. That's what mad me think the scope was fine to begin with.

So,

Here are the lessons learned so far.

1. Just cause Vortex makes great scopes, that doesn't mean they all are worth a shit.

2. I just wasted a bunch of ammo and now get to start over.

3. Bad scopes can still shoot good groups .... LOL. I must be a decent shot if I can shoot good groups with a broken scope .... LOL.

4. I need to start over with my testing.

5. And, lastly and most important. Eating Crow in front of everyone (on the internet) doesn't taste as good as eating BBQ chicken ....... LOL.


Look at it this way. At least I wasn't a troll and didn't slink away and never post again on the subject. At least I was honest enough to admit I was wrong.

I'll post up another string of tests once I get a new scope on there. That's gonna be a while.
 
#104
Re: Which Group Is Better .., why do you think so??

Drama Queen, at a minimum.....

Did I read it right that you shot with the same scope again?

Put another scope on it, and PROVE it isn't you, or a combination of both.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">now lets go show these fuckers...... </div></div>

Might be a while before you get any more help around here.......
 
#105
Re: Which Group Is Better .., why do you think so??

Damn .... I was kinding. It was humor. Obsiously, not good humer ..... but humor after all. It's called Irony .... I was wrong after all .... that's the funny part. Did you read the whole post? It was pretty obvious in that post that I was admitting I was wrong. I even appologized to the people that said my scope had issues all along. I was poking a little fun ... mostly at myself. It wasn't written to piss anyone off. It was written to show I was wrong and that I was being a good sport about being wrong.


I didn't even bother shooting another scope on it (I would have had to zero the other scope to the 20 MOA base and use a bunch of ammo to do so) since it's zero for a different rifle. There was no point. The one I have been using was obviously broken. I also didn't even bother running the higher loads through it. I just ended the tests and packed up. No sense wasting ammo.

Since I zero'd with the 40.2 gr rounds on the first target and then moved to a new target and shot five more rounds with the same 40.2 gr rounds and it they were off 5 inches on the second target. That is proof enough that the scope was jacked up ...... since they were all shot with the same charge weight. The group in the picture should have printed dead center of the black dot. It also appears that the scope is moving out of zero with less shots at this point.

I wasted my time. I wasted my ammo. I bought a scope that wasn't worth shit. I thought it was the loads and not the scope .... but I was wrong. I proved I was wrong and admitted it to everyone. I thought that was enough for one day.
 
#106
Re: Which Group Is Better .., why do you think so??

I'm normally a hard hearted prick. In the case of this soap opera, it's mainly been exasperation while trying to get somebody to recognize the problem, and it has never been a suggestion that this blockhead can't shoot. It is that there is a problem with the shifting of the impact versus the point of aim. The response I got was that he's only concerned with "groups" not the fact that the location was extremely odd. If you will note; in the middle of page #2, I suggested there could be a problem with the scope and was ignored. Well, boys and girls, I am not clueless and all I have said several times over several days is.....something ain't right.

When a man logs on and asks for help, it is better to act like you don't know, instead of assuming, incorrectly, that we are questioning your ability to shoot. Well, you, (obviously) are not an accomplished shooter, but that is not a sin. It would be better if you didn't have a quarrelsome attitude but I do give you credit for admitting that you have been a little stubborn for the last ten miles of text.

I'm just glad we accomplished something in dragging this guy, kicking and screaming, from the brink, back to reality. I'll tell you something. $99 scopes can be reliable, and I have also seen Swarovski's fail, right next to me, on the bench, while I watched a guy with a 30/378 beat the hell out of a $2500 precision instrument. So, be glad that's all you had invested, it could have been worse. BB
 
#109
Re: Which Group Is Better ..... why do you think so???

I've been using AA2520 for years. I found that 42.2gr with a 168gr Sierra runs 2630 fps out of my M1A and out of my Remington it runs .3-.5

I still run AA2520 for my 168's although I run RL-15 over my 175's
 
#110
Re: Which Group Is Better ..... why do you think so???

" I'm just glad we accomplished something in dragging this guy, kicking and screaming, from the brink, back to reality. "
That is funny BuzzBoss915 !
Mutt , Appology accepted .
I got to say one thing about Mutt and that is he stayed with the thread and the job and gave feedback and an outcome. That is way better than the guy that comes in and asks a real technical question you spend a few days working out an answer and doing research and checking your own gear and records to confirm then you never hear from him again or even get a thankyou .
 
#111
Re: Which Group Is Better ..... why do you think so???

Well, I'm going to feed this fire a little bit more.

I'm not convinced it's the scope. I had a similar issue my rifle firing tight groups, but in different places on different days, or even on the same day. It was like some gremlin was changing my dope back and forth when I wasn't looking. It turns out that it was the scope base. It was NightForce 20MOA R700 SA base that I had installed in a rush (at a training camp). The NF base comes with at least 2 different length screws and if you put a long one in the hole closest to the muzzle, it will bottom out against the barrel before it tightens against the base. What's more, the screw stuck up just enough to bind against the stud in the scope ring. It was several weeks later when I took the scope off that I noticed the screw protruding up into the Picatinny slot (and a corresponding marred spot on the scope ring stud) that I knew what was wrong. I replaced the screws with new ones of the correct lengths for the holes in the receiver and I've not had a problem since.
 
#112
Re: Which Group Is Better ..... why do you think so???

Gene pool,
I had a similar problem mounting a Larue QD mount on a POF upper.
No matter how tight I got the tension the rifle would not shoot sub 1 moa and the POI would shift around. Once I put the badger one piece on, the rifle would stack bullets on top of each other, but $3500 gun and a USO sn/3 scope and a known accurate round. Had to be the base
 
#113
Re: Which Group Is Better ..... why do you think so???

I for one am not buying the scope is broken either.

I have NEVER seen a scope go from zero to 5 MOA down and 1 1/2 MOA right and group a bug hole. Wandering zero, yep. Strung out group, yep. No group, yep. Group in 2 spots, yep. THAT kind of shift, Nope. I also find it difficult to believe that you could have dropped 5 MOA consistently by shifting positions from one target to another.

FWIW being a "scope guy" I get asked to check out a lot of scopes and rifles that "aren't acting right".

Loose scope base? Mebby, but it would have the same problems as a broke scope UN-repeatability.

We have determined that you can shoot (nice group BTW) but something else is afoot here. A 5 MOA drop sounds an awful lot like a 10gr drop in powder.

You said you zero'd the scope to 40.2 so you must have either loaded more than 6 or had a bunch left over from a previous load session. You should have 1 round left from your "special 6 rounds" take it apart and weigh what's inside.

Food for thought.

Cheers,

Doc
 
#114
Re: Which Group Is Better ..... why do you think so???

Where were you guys when I was banging my head against the wall? All I have ever said; and I'm the one that mentioned the phenomena, in the first place, on page #1, is that there is something wrong! And I couldn't get Mr Mutt to pay attention. Look, none of us are there, and he said, "tell me what's wrong". How the hell can we do that without examining the gun?

What HAS been accomplished is he finally accepts the fact that THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG. A small victory, and now the suggestions spring out of the woodwork; which are welcome, by the way. I have had exactly the same problem with mounting screws bottoming against the threads of the barrel. I think that's rather common?

It has also been suggested that he mount the scope on another rifle. Okay, why not? And, while he is at it, check those base mounting screws. But, now, instead of trying to prove that his RIFLE AIN'T BROKE, he knows he has a problem besides how much powder is inside his cartridges.

It has been a hard fight. I also appreciate what Country said. A guy will get a huge quarrel going and you never hear back from him. Guys like that should be taken out and shot! BB
 
#115
Re: Which Group Is Better ..... why do you think so???

Doc,

I had two whole boxes that was already loaded with 40.2 that I was previously planning to shoot 5 shot groups with. I went ahead and loaded 6 more with 40.2 and 6 with 43.5. I wanted 6 of each so if I choked or if I needed to run the test again I could. I saw no purpose in wasting more ammo with a scope that won't hold zero.

I'm pretty positive of the charge weight. When I load my powder, I use my powder throw to dump 39.5 grains into my pan. Then I use a trickler to bring the charge up to the weight I want. This has proven to make my charge weights much more consistant. Even if I somehow forgot to trickle the charge up (which I didn't), I'd still have 39.5 grains in it. It wouldn't be that far off. But, I'm going to pull most of the 40.2gr rounds since I'm going to be starting over with my load work up. I don't need all those rounds with 40.2 in them. I'll check a couple as I eventually pull them.

I'm with you. I couldn't believe a scope would actaully shoot lower and lower on a set or targets. Then on another range day, return to zero for the first shots. Then, after shooting a couple targets start moving lower and lower. Then, come back on a different day, return to zero (zero being about an inch low and a tiny bit right. Then, after zeroing the scope, shoot five inches low. I find it really hard to believe. And ..... that's why I argued initially with BB and Country that there is no way this happens. A scope can't do this. But, that's exactly what happened. I can't explain it. I don't even want to believe it. But I'm forced to believe it. The only thing I did different yesterday than on the other days was that I dialed the turrets to zero it. After I stopped dailing and relaxed, I readjusted to shoot on a different target.


Gene,

The scope base has been checked multiple times. Screws are in the proper holes and the torque hasn't loosened. It's a one piece EGW 20 MOA base and the front screws are so much shorter than the rear screws, I don't even think they would hit the threads if I put a short screw in the rear holes.


BB,

I still think there is nothing wrong with the rifle or I wouldn't be shooting groups. If the gun were the problem, it would probably be sending them off every which way. Yet, even with the worst group on the lowest targets ... it still groups.

As for shooting with another scope. The other scope I have available, doesn't have enough adjustment to zero on the 20 MOA base.

Why not put the scope on another rifle?? Because then I'd be wasting even more ammo. The reason i bought the cheaper scope is because I couldn't afford a better one. I don't have unlimited funds or I'd already have a NF or something. I got what I could afford at the time. Yeah, I regret it. I also regret wasting all the ammo I have so far. I don't want to go out and continue to waste more ammo on a broken scope. I don't have unlimited funds for ammo either. Give me a little time and I will get/borrow a known good scope that can adjust to the 20 MOA base and shoot for groups with this rifle. For now, I think I've made myself look bad enough. The continual jabs aren't going to accomplish anything BB. I've been man enough to appologize. Please accept it and we can both move on with something more productive. That cool with you??
 
#116
Re: Which Group Is Better ..... why do you think so???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm pretty positive of the charge weight. When I load my powder, I use my powder throw to dump 39.5 grains into my pan. Then I use a trickler to bring the charge up to the weight I want. This has proven to make my charge weights much more consistant. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Even if I somehow forgot to trickle the charge up (which I didn't), I'd still have 39.5 grains in it. It wouldn't be that far off. But, I'm going to pull most of the 40.2gr rounds since I'm going to be starting over with my load work up.</span> I don't need all those rounds with 40.2 in them. I'll check a couple as I eventually pull them.
</div></div>
I don't know anyone who reloads for precision shooting that would accept 39.5 grains as close enough to 40.2 grains.
 
#117
Re: Which Group Is Better ..... why do you think so???

Mutt, you get points for manning up, and I accept your apology. You should look at it from my side; I happen to know a little bit about these things and I was damned near ready to bail, (and you know it) and someone even said; "BYE", but there was a nagging sense that somehow, this guy needs to reevaluate the situation because this will probably continue.

No more zingers; just understand that these people are actually trying to be helpful. I spend considerable time on these boards doing that, every day, and it's not for personal edification. I retired seven years ago, widowed, and have nothing better to do. Just trying to give back, in a small way. BB
 
#118
Re: Which Group Is Better ..... why do you think so???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gvanhyning</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm pretty positive of the charge weight. When I load my powder, I use my powder throw to dump 39.5 grains into my pan. Then I use a trickler to bring the charge up to the weight I want. This has proven to make my charge weights much more consistant. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Even if I somehow forgot to trickle the charge up (which I didn't), I'd still have 39.5 grains in it. It wouldn't be that far off. But, I'm going to pull most of the 40.2gr rounds since I'm going to be starting over with my load work up.</span> I don't need all those rounds with 40.2 in them. I'll check a couple as I eventually pull them.
</div></div>
I don't know anyone who reloads for precision shooting that would accept 39.5 grains as close enough to 40.2 grains. </div></div>



You know damn good and well that's not what I was saying. I didn't say that 39.5 was "CLOSE ENOUGH" .... try re-reading what you quoted.




Jesus christ people ..... it's crap like this ^^^^^^^ that makes me deffensive.

I think I'm pretty much done with this thread. For those that suggested it was my scope ....... well, I thank you for keeping at it and finally convincing me. I finally accepted that it is in fact the scope that is bad. I would have messed around for a while before eventually coming to the same conclusion. But, would have wasted even more ammo in the process. thanks for saving me a few bucks in ammo.
 
#119
Re: Which Group Is Better ..... why do you think so???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gvanhyning</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm pretty positive of the charge weight. When I load my powder, I use my powder throw to dump 39.5 grains into my pan. Then I use a trickler to bring the charge up to the weight I want. This has proven to make my charge weights much more consistant. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Even if I somehow forgot to trickle the charge up (which I didn't), I'd still have 39.5 grains in it. It wouldn't be that far off. But, I'm going to pull most of the 40.2gr rounds since I'm going to be starting over with my load work up.</span> I don't need all those rounds with 40.2 in them. I'll check a couple as I eventually pull them.
</div></div>
I don't know anyone who reloads for precision shooting that would accept 39.5 grains as close enough to 40.2 grains. </div></div>



You know damn good and well that's not what I was saying. I didn't say that 39.5 was "CLOSE ENOUGH" .... try re-reading what you quoted.




Jesus christ people ..... it's crap like this ^^^^^^^ that makes me deffensive.

I think I'm pretty much done with this thread. For those that suggested it was my scope ....... well, I thank you for keeping at it and finally convincing me. I finally accepted that it is in fact the scope that is bad. I would have messed around for a while before eventually coming to the same conclusion. But, would have wasted even more ammo in the process. thanks for saving me a few bucks in ammo. </div></div>
Apologies for the misquote. I should have said "it wouldn't be that far off".
 
#120
Re: Which Group Is Better ..... why do you think so???

There you go, dude. I think his observation was somewhat relevant, and you became defensive, again. You don't have to fire back at every statement you perceive as critical of your actions. FWIW
 
#121
Re: Which Group Is Better ..... why do you think so???

I'm gonna say in open what I told this guy when he started firing PMs at me last night....he comes to a place like this asking questions of people who really don't need to ask questions themselves anymore.

Then, doesn't like the answers he's getting and sounds off like a third grade drama queen......

This COULD be the scope, and actually may be part of the problem, but it's way easy to PROVE it's the scope, and only the scope.

This isn't rocket science........
 
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