I have a 16” middy WOA 223W barrel. Last time I shot it I was pulling 3/8-3/4” groups at 100 and ringing C-zone IPSC steel at 700 yards. One of my favorite AR’s I’ve ever owned.
- Thread starter Pilotscrappy
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Have you ever thought of using the M110 option for long range? How many folks decide to use a .308 instead of .223 for long range service rifle? Im pretty sure the AMU does, no?
Thank you sir
Very briefly, then decided maybe I’d just rather not. Ya got people shooting for X-count, where we just try for tens, and a driver can get tired of always being in an IROC.
Anybody with a brain is leaving their -15 at the 600 yardline.
Anybody that wants to lose brings an AR15 to the 1,000 yardline to shoot against the Army shooters with M110s.
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Do the AMU use actual KAC rifles? Or are they Armalites and other assorted builds?
Freeman, and everybody else I saw with fatigues on were shooting what appeared to be identical issued rifles. I can’t say if they were Knights, or NM Armalite, or...
I imagine all of the above could be made to work well with a little trickery from Keystone and Wisconsin. Holliger doesn’t do -10.
No doubt. The Armalite NM's use Wilson barrels, no? Seems like most every mid-high'ish tier AR15 and AR-.308 that DON'T use a custom barrel ([EG:Krieger/Bartlein/Douglas/Criterion SS, Rainier UM's used to be Shilen IDK now tho, Seekins uses Rock Creek button barrels.. andd I believe Radian Weapons uses Lilja or used to?, etc, etc...]), use a Wilson(EG: JP rifles AFAIK) or Green Mountain, or Criterion(Eg: ADM rifles)..?? It'd be nice if more companies went this route, eg: I'd have to think Savage could use Green Mountain for their AR's without raising cost much if any while likely getting better performance at same time, certainly not worse performance.
Also I'd consider KAC's SR15 LPR and SR25 PC/PR barrels as fully equal to custom barrels since, even tho they make their barrels in-house, they are single point cut rifled barrels made in-house by @__JR__ w/ 100% the meticulousness and quality control as the likes of Krieger/Brux/Bartlein/Rock Creek, etc..
How yall think ER Shaw compares to Wilson, Green Mountain, Criterion, ..?? Ive always seen em as bottom of the barrel, at least their Adams & Bennett 4140 CM Mauser pre-fit type stuff. But they make SS
I bought a cheap gas block (maybe $15 or so) for a rifle I was building from spare parts I had laying around my bench. It fit crazy loose on the barrel and leaked gas like a MoFo. I chunked that thing in the trash and replaced with a BCM. Figured I could save a few dollars...lesson learned.
Compass Lakes lead time is only about 10 days right now if that figures into your planning. Just picked up an upper from Frank with a 18” fluted Bartlein ?
Isn’t CLE doing WOA’s barrels?
Be perfect for 69tmk and probably close to perfect for 77smk. My 69tmk are seated to maglength and have .035-.040 more jump than 69smk.
Thanks. Did their quality go up down or remain the same
Scroll up and read.
Kac match is Krieger
I’ve seen them use issued rifles to basically whatever they’ve got. I don’t think it’s ever anything certain,correct me if I’m wrong,but the guys I know personally have showed me their rifles and it’s either an issued rifle or basically a build
You come in mid-stream and ask a question that’s already received an answer... and you expect to be received without a little chiding?
Not sorry.
Want more fight? PM.
I believe the LPR used to be, yes. But KAC moved their barrel production in-house... the man who works for KAC rifling their barrels is a member here, his handle is @__JR__
I just got my 20” varmint upper in the mail today. 10day turn around on an upper that was back ordered and quoted at a month out! So far I’m in love, now to mount some glass and see what it can do!
Nice let us know how it shoots. Are you going to be using factory ammo or handloads ?
Probably a bit of both, and I will! I still need a few odds and ends before she makes her debut (arca plate, muzzle brake, etc.) Admittedly I settled on glass because what I wanted was back ordered ?. Monday I should have glass and a mount waiting for me at the post office ?.
WOA is a couple of hours from my house. Little shop in a small town that you would never know is there when you drove by. But the owner John is a great guy and a very accomplished shooter himself. If you have been to the high powered nation matches then you know the guys winning are using Johns barrels. They use Krieger blanks and John chambers every barrel himself. I have owned a few and I have never got one that wasn’t capable of 1/4moa.
1) Some of them do. And then there’s this group of shooters called the AMU... well, they don’t buy barrels from Holliger.
2) I would bet better than 75% of the barrels that come out of Holliger’s shop are Wilson blanks. Most guys just buy a “WOA” barrel, and call it a day. Only SOME call and specifically request a premium level Krieger-, Shilen-, etc.-blanked WOA barrel.
The only problem with the regular Wilson barrels is that they do what they do for 1/2 the time a premium cut tube does.
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@natdscott In your experience how many rounds will the Wilson blank last vs. a cut rifled ? I’ve read conflicting info regarding cut vs. buttoned barrel life.
Most of the Highpower guys using Wilsons are getting nervous at about 2,000 rounds that the rifle will start opening up at 600. They might shoot until 3,000 at short ranges 300 and under, but when X-count starts dropping inexplicably at 600, or it starts throwing shots out....you better have a tube ready. Now. Those soft stainless barrels can die a horrible death in as little as a magazine of rapid fire.
The bad thing about a 2,500 round barrel is that, for a normal touring Highpower guy, that round count will come right AT, or just before, the Nationals in July.
Meanwhile, without abuse, it is rare to see a Krieger or similar cut tube die under 4,000 rounds.
I’ve stuck to broached and cut tubes, and I replace somewhere before 4,000, such that I don’t worry about it, and I can still get a LITTLE for it in resale..or a Jr. team can get a few thousand of good life out of it at short range.
Short version: 2,500 / 5,000.
The bad thing about a 2,500 round barrel is that, for a normal touring Highpower guy, that round count will come right AT, or just before, the Nationals in July.
Meanwhile, without abuse, it is rare to see a Krieger or similar cut tube die under 4,000 rounds.
I’ve stuck to broached and cut tubes, and I replace somewhere before 4,000, such that I don’t worry about it, and I can still get a LITTLE for it in resale..or a Jr. team can get a few thousand of good life out of it at short range.
Short version: 2,500 / 5,000.
@natdscott Thank you very much for taking the time to share that knowledge. A couple more questions if you have time:
1. What is causing the rounds to deviate more at 600 compared to short range (is it erratic velocity due to throat erosion) ? We know that a load that doesn’t do well at 100 does not “go to sleep” and do better at longer ranges. But the opposite does not appear to be true.
2. Is a Kreiger/Bartlein still experiencing some velocity loss over the course of those 4000+ rounds, as in is one’s elevation dope increasing during that time?
The reason I ask is because I had a Bartlein .224V barrel stop grouping consistently between 3000 -3600 rounds. It lost only 30 FPS at the end and velocity SD’s weren’t any higher than before.
1. What is causing the rounds to deviate more at 600 compared to short range (is it erratic velocity due to throat erosion) ? We know that a load that doesn’t do well at 100 does not “go to sleep” and do better at longer ranges. But the opposite does not appear to be true.
2. Is a Kreiger/Bartlein still experiencing some velocity loss over the course of those 4000+ rounds, as in is one’s elevation dope increasing during that time?
The reason I ask is because I had a Bartlein .224V barrel stop grouping consistently between 3000 -3600 rounds. It lost only 30 FPS at the end and velocity SD’s weren’t any higher than before.
So. WOA or JP?
1) Well, that's a huge debate. I'm not an authority, but my opinion is that it can vary in causation. It is a well known fact that lands that wash out unevenly do pretty terrible things to accuracy. Some of that may be why Tubb used to mark the "high side" of concentricity, and always chamber his rounds with that aligned UP in the rifle. Harder to do with an AR.
If you have velocities that begin erring widely, the barrel will be in and out of tune from shot to shot. You can't really tune one into tight groups that is +/- 50 fps, regardless of the cause of that range of speed.
It is also 100% accepted that firecracking does nothing good for jackets, but that is inconclusive how much effect it has early on. The SIDES of the bullet get torn all to hell anyway. **But it is equally true, especially with stainless, that if you push it to the breaking point..the barrel will literally begin shredding jackets, spitting out pieces of barrel steel, and losing elevation 1/2 minute at a time. They can also cause bullets to poof, if you're near that point anyway.
2) I can't speak directly for the Valkyrie, not owning one, but I would pretty strongly suggest that you got everything you could get from that barrel. That's a lot, for the type of round it is... WELL within the range of death, I'd guess.
The issues with Stainless vs Chromemoly are directly opposed.
--Stainless is softer, may not last as long at "acceptable" accuracy, but is easier to make into extremely precise barrels. It can also see issues with stress at cold temperatures, particularly in very light contours. It firecracks like a sonnavabitch, and when it dies, it dies a horrible, agonizing death, very acutely.
--4140 and 4150 CM, or especially the Vandadium versions, are relativity very hard steel. They are a little tougher to machine, but can be made into excellent barrels that resist wear and temperature better than stainless. Due to tensile strength and metallurgical difference, they can be machined to minimum "featherweight" contours, for weights SS cannot safely reach. CM will hold accuracy longer, and doesn't firecrack much (it just washes away)...but the trouble for target shooting is that it will go 0.7.. .8... .9... 1.0 MOA... gradually. The astute shooter with good round count records, multiple rifles, and the confidence to know his/her hold and scores...well that's no problem to recognize-and-replace. But the new kid on the block may not have confidence to diagnose it until it's washed out to 1.5 MOA POTENTIAL at 600 yards.
Pay your money, take your chance. Being that I know very closely how a tuned rifle should shoot with me behind it, I prefer CM barrels.
Whichever suits you. The confidence matters more than the brand.
This is some of the most informative reading I’ve done all month.
Thanks,
Lug Nut.
.
Have you ever tried moly bullets with a CM barrel? Boots Obermeyer has said moly coated bullets will significantly extend barrel life for chrome moly..
I've owned and tested 4 barrels from WOA
#1. Purchased a 26" left handed Stag upper with Wilson 1:8 barrel and this was my first experience with a precision AR-15. I'm an OCD afflicted engineer and go a bit overboard with testing and documenting data. After the barrel was broken in, I developed an acceptable load 77 grain SMK's, (RL15 powder, Rem 7.5 primer, Lapua brass) and shot 20- 5 shot groups at 100 yards to establish base line accuracy. Average group sizes was .243" I had never shot a precision AR-15 and had no idea they could be so accurate! I used this rifle in high power XC and mid-range prone matches around the Midwest for several years and achieved a Masters classification in XC. Occasionally I would shoot from the bench at 100yd. to confirm accuracy and 1/4 minute accuracy was maintained until I reached about 3200 rounds. At this point I was noticing a few flyers in Prone that didn't match my calls. On the bench with over 3200 rounds most shots would hold a tight group however about 2 in 10 were clearly outside the group. Time for a re-barrel? see #4 below)
#2. I purchased a service rifle upper with 20" Krieger 1:7.5 barrel right handed Rock river upper. I had gained enough experience to realize the 200+ yard groups are more meaningful in evaluating the accuracy for XC and Prone Mid range matches so all testing with this uppers was at 200 yards. After brake-in 20 shot groups at 200 yard averaged .937" This rifle is still in service with 1200 rounds and till maintains the same level of accuracy.
#3. I purchased another service rifle upper with 20" Shilen 5R ratchet barrel 1:7.5, Rock river left handed upper. 200 yard 20 shot groups averaged .895" after brake-in. I have abut 600 round through this rifle and i recently confirmed it's performing to the same level of accuracy.
#4. I just picked up the upper from #1 that was re barreled by WOA with a 26" heavy 1.7 Krieger barrel. Yesterday I shot the 77 grain SMK load and tried the 80.5 Berger Hybirds. At 200 yards average group size using 77 SMK's for 8 groups was .895". I shot the Bergers for the first time at 300 yards (coal at 2.400") single loaded. 3- 5 shot group average 1.081"! Basically 1/3 MOA at 300 yards. I don't believe I can hold better than this. I'm blown away!
Equally important is I see John H. (owner of WOA) at matches throughout the Midwest and he has proven to be one of the best marksman in the country. John has always been approachable and helpful. In the Midwest his uppers are by far the most popular among HP competitors. Being "former military" and a strong supporter of 2A combined with the performance level described above and great customer service, WOA would be my first recommendation for AR15 match grade products.
John Adams
#1. Purchased a 26" left handed Stag upper with Wilson 1:8 barrel and this was my first experience with a precision AR-15. I'm an OCD afflicted engineer and go a bit overboard with testing and documenting data. After the barrel was broken in, I developed an acceptable load 77 grain SMK's, (RL15 powder, Rem 7.5 primer, Lapua brass) and shot 20- 5 shot groups at 100 yards to establish base line accuracy. Average group sizes was .243" I had never shot a precision AR-15 and had no idea they could be so accurate! I used this rifle in high power XC and mid-range prone matches around the Midwest for several years and achieved a Masters classification in XC. Occasionally I would shoot from the bench at 100yd. to confirm accuracy and 1/4 minute accuracy was maintained until I reached about 3200 rounds. At this point I was noticing a few flyers in Prone that didn't match my calls. On the bench with over 3200 rounds most shots would hold a tight group however about 2 in 10 were clearly outside the group. Time for a re-barrel? see #4 below)
#2. I purchased a service rifle upper with 20" Krieger 1:7.5 barrel right handed Rock river upper. I had gained enough experience to realize the 200+ yard groups are more meaningful in evaluating the accuracy for XC and Prone Mid range matches so all testing with this uppers was at 200 yards. After brake-in 20 shot groups at 200 yard averaged .937" This rifle is still in service with 1200 rounds and till maintains the same level of accuracy.
#3. I purchased another service rifle upper with 20" Shilen 5R ratchet barrel 1:7.5, Rock river left handed upper. 200 yard 20 shot groups averaged .895" after brake-in. I have abut 600 round through this rifle and i recently confirmed it's performing to the same level of accuracy.
#4. I just picked up the upper from #1 that was re barreled by WOA with a 26" heavy 1.7 Krieger barrel. Yesterday I shot the 77 grain SMK load and tried the 80.5 Berger Hybirds. At 200 yards average group size using 77 SMK's for 8 groups was .895". I shot the Bergers for the first time at 300 yards (coal at 2.400") single loaded. 3- 5 shot group average 1.081"! Basically 1/3 MOA at 300 yards. I don't believe I can hold better than this. I'm blown away!
Equally important is I see John H. (owner of WOA) at matches throughout the Midwest and he has proven to be one of the best marksman in the country. John has always been approachable and helpful. In the Midwest his uppers are by far the most popular among HP competitors. Being "former military" and a strong supporter of 2A combined with the performance level described above and great customer service, WOA would be my first recommendation for AR15 match grade products.
John Adams
Meh. I think it is a waste of life. The only lubrication match bullets need is the copper in the jacket.
@Jadams, how were those 20 round groups achieved?
Surely we must have shot against one another at some point.
Sorry that was 20 five shot groups! Using a 6x24 power Vortex scope, front rest and rear bag off of a bench rest. I shot a lot at the ISRA range in Illinois.
I found that same sale.... it was a great deal! The barrel I wound up with, after a bit of load development, is pretty consistent around 3/8 with ME behind it. Almost everything shoots 1/2-3/4.I snagged a WOA 18" 1 in 7" SPR w/rifle length gas in late 2018 from Brownell's for $200 plus NC State Sales Theft when it was on sale and used a discount code. The barrel shoots 77gr amazingly well! For the $$$ I stole that barrel.
This is what I use and don't have a problem. I think mine is Midwest Industries.
ISRA range.... one of the few things I miss from living in Illinois.
I used to live about 7 miles North of WOA. I guarantee you he wont put anything out the door substandard. I own 3 barrels from him and all 3 shoot very well.
almost any dried hard wood could be really nice I just love the cocobolo for the color and the iron wood for a fine look it can give
nice examples of some different and not so different woods and there are many many more that are just stunning to look at .
But there isn't many I don't like the look of good luck on what ever wood you go with .
nice examples of some different and not so different woods and there are many many more that are just stunning to look at .
Wood by species
We have the largest selection of rare hardwoods from around the world. We have over 250 species of woods and more than 9,000 hand-curated selections offering hobbiests, craftworkers and designers countless options to match any project or style.
www.cookwoods.com
Uh. What did I miss?almost any dried hard wood could be really nice I just love the cocobolo for the color and the iron wood for a fine look it can give
nice examples of some different and not so different woods and there are many many more that are just stunning to look at .
But there isn't many I don't like the look of good luck on what ever wood you go with .Wood by species
We have the largest selection of rare hardwoods from around the world. We have over 250 species of woods and more than 9,000 hand-curated selections offering hobbiests, craftworkers and designers countless options to match any project or style.www.cookwoods.com
Thanks @natdscott for all your information you posted here. And thanks to all the others who added in their own info that supports this.
I am searching for a barrel right now and your knowledge and explanations will help me in deciding.
Just an SPRish rig, BUT want it to be as consistent as I can make her.
good reading
ETA: I think nothing. I think there was some smartassery going on, White Oak and other hardwoods.
I personally would have made a blue pill joke about hard wood....... But I am more juvenile than most!
I am searching for a barrel right now and your knowledge and explanations will help me in deciding.
Just an SPRish rig, BUT want it to be as consistent as I can make her.
good reading
ETA: I think nothing. I think there was some smartassery going on, White Oak and other hardwoods.
I personally would have made a blue pill joke about hard wood....... But I am more juvenile than most!
I just received an unfired WOA 18" 1:7 SPR barrel from the classifieds here, and it seems to be well machined and quality. I'm slowly parting together a MOCK12 mod 0....trying to keep the upper as close to correct as possible. This barrel is not, but it seemed a good compromise between saving some dough and still getting a quality barrel that will (hopefully from what I hear) shoot well.
Are any of you guys breaking these barrels in? Or do they go right out of the gate?
Are any of you guys breaking these barrels in? Or do they go right out of the gate?
Would a WOA and a basic Aero Precision upper make a decent precision upper? I have $500-700 to spend.
I'll let you know in bout 2 weeks ,that's exactly what I'm going to be using for my white oak barrel.
awesome! Let me know! I want to do this bad!!! Update here and tag me!
also gonna give a shout out to David @ spicetac
Ordered most parts thru him , he shipped same day I ordered and I had parts in hand like 2 days later.
Also check out granite ridge outfitters they have good deals on AR parts as well.
Ordered most parts thru him , he shipped same day I ordered and I had parts in hand like 2 days later.
Also check out granite ridge outfitters they have good deals on AR parts as well.
Will do man. I have all my parts except for the barrel I'm going to order it next Friday (payday lol )
I’ve got $1000 to play. So 700 for an upper and $300 for a cheap scope.
That is what i used. I bonded the upper and barrel with green locktite. It shoots great. You should be quite pleased.
The WOA is fine, as is similar from Compass Lake, Craddock or even JP..........Craddock & Compass Lake maybe offer more choices & will do it however you want it. WOA & JP, have more or less fixed options.
My preference because of those choice options is Craddock, but I really like WOA & they are great people to deal with & the barrels I have from them shoot very well.
As to the upper, if you have no real restrictions on $$, I'd surely upgrade to a Vltor MUR or Cross Machine Tool UPR for sure, or at a minimum, a BCM which will require a thermal fit............JMHO, I like Aero lowers, not so much love for their uppers for anything more than just a banger. If the upper is not a thermal fit to the barrel extension, then by all means Loctite them to each other.
MM
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