White Oak barrels vs Faxon MATCH & Criterion

hidaro

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I've currently got a Faxon match barrel and it's not shooting as good as I'd hope it would - around 1.2-1.8 MOA with IMI 77gr OTMs. 1.9-3.0 MOA with M193. I'm going to play around with a couple more bullet weights but I'm unsure it'll improve drastically. I'm trying not to fall into my habit of constantly changing my rifle (this would be it's 4th barrel since I first bought it) - but I know exactly what I want - a lightweight, fluted barrel that can shoot consistent MOA with match ammo and 2.0 or better with M193, and while the faxon is lightweight and fairly accurate I want MORE.

I had a Criterion before. It was alright, but their backorders are LONG. So I'm leaning White Oak (Or rainer, etc).

I know it's fun to drag on Faxon, but without bias, would white oak really shoot lights out compared to Faxon's **match** barrels?
 
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Trigger Monkey

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    M193/55 gr FMJ is 3-4 MOA ammo, if you get a barrel that shoots it better than that count yourself lucky but you're chasing waterfalls thinking a barrel should do that consistently. Like MK20 mentioned, a White Oak might do better, mine are generally 1 MOA with IMI 77gr.
     

    GhostFace

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    WOA as I stated over at arfcom would be my choice. I've seen too many inconsistencies mentioned with Faxon and BA. Some guys get great shooters, others get okay and others get what you're reporting. I've yet to see anyone complain their WOA shot 2+ MOA. I'm not saying it's never happened but I've never seen anyone question a WOA. I think some barrel manufacturers have a better QC when making barrels over others. Quality and consistency costs....
     
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    JBomb

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    I have a WOA fluted SPR. It's shoots decent but it took a 100 round to come around. It took a few months to get it though.

    Here's a 3 shot group at 100 yards and a 5 shot group at 200 yards.
    20221016_110723.jpg
    20221016_095612.jpg
     

    vinniedelpino

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    Maybe I've been lucky, but my most accurate gas guns have all had criterion barrels. I've messed with criterion, rainier ultramatch (shilen I believe,) WOA, BA and a few others.

    Never had anything from CLE or spun up from a blank though.
     
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    Molon

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    I've seen too many inconsistencies mentioned with Faxon and BA. Some guys get great shooters, others get okay and others get what you're reporting.

    Occasionally cheap barrels will shoot decently. More often than not, they won’t. When you buy a barrel, you’re paying for a probability. If you want a high probability that the barrel that you are buying will shoot well, you pay for a top-tier barrel. If you buy a cheap barrel, you’re only paying for a low probability that it will shoot well.


    "There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey."




    ….
     

    Rudy Gonsior

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    Occasionally cheap barrels will shoot decently. More often than not, they won’t. When you buy a barrel, you’re paying for a probability. If you want a high probability that the barrel that you are buying will shoot well, you pay for a top-tier barrel. If you buy a cheap barrel, you’re only paying for a low probability that it will shoot well.


    "There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey."




    ….
    ^Exactly this.

    I’ve seen a lot of different AR barrels over the year teaching and I cant even begin to say how many times I’ve seen this trend play out.

    Guy’s, a good barrel takes effort and time to make, you’re going to pay. If you’re buying cheap all you are doing is playing odds.

    Also IMI isn’t my first choice for evaluating what a system can really do. It’s been “decent” but it ain’t no FGMM.
     

    Romeo458

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    I bought 3 top tier barrels and 2 of them were shit out of the Box. I've bought several Faxon barrels and they've all performed great out of the Box. I've used several 223/556, a 308 and 224 Valkyrie. Iespecially like Faxon for the 350 legend feed ramps they use.
     

    celltech

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    The Faxon barrels I have bought are all very adequate for their intended purpose. They save a lot of weight, have a beautiful and tough nitride finish, and shoot well enough. Would I get one for a 600 yard laser beam...no.

    For what it's worth my 18" heavy fluted Wylde barrel shoots Magtech 77 at ~.75" and IMI 77 ~1+". That IMI stuff is really hot...
     

    GhostFace

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    Occasionally cheap barrels will shoot decently. More often than not, they won’t. When you buy a barrel, you’re paying for a probability. If you want a high probability that the barrel that you are buying will shoot well, you pay for a top-tier barrel. If you buy a cheap barrel, you’re only paying for a low probability that it will shoot well.


    "There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey."




    ….
    I agree and it’s a reason why I don’t cheap out on barrels. It’s also the reason why I haven’t had any accuracy issues with any rifles that I own. Some get better barrels than others, it just depends on my intentions with it. The cheapest barrel I have is a SS RRA HBAR and it’s a damn good shooter. What’s that saying? Only accurate rifles are interesting….
     
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    Constructor

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    Maybe I've been lucky, but my most accurate gas guns have all had criterion barrels. I've messed with criterion, rainier ultramatch (shilen I believe,) WOA, BA and a few others.

    Never had anything from CLE or spun up from a blank though.
    In the 90s there were really only 3 places you could buy high end AR barrels. CLE, WOA(CLE made their barrels back then) and Accuracy Speaks. Those were the top 3 high power barrel makers in the country for years. Derrick sold Accuracy Speaks. WOA and CLE can use any blanks, WOA house barrels are along the same quality as Criterion but I believe Criterion uses 410 stainless instead of 416. 15-20 years ago I tried some Shilen blanks in ARs but they didn't last long, it has to be the softest stainless I have ever seen.
     
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    Ledzep

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    Faxon- I've got 1 out of 4 that shot decent (I mostly put them on uber-lightweight bullet hoses so precision isn't a big deal to me).
    Criterion- I'm 2 for 2 non-shooters. Won't be trying again.
    CLE (Bartlien & Kreiger)- Excellent every time
    Krieger- Excellent every time
    Proof Research- SS Excellent every time, had a carbon wrapped barrel or two that was kinda meh but still practically functional
     

    Scttschnd

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    These were fired with SMK77 prone slow fire at reduced 600 yd target at 300 yards sling shooter here, it s a fairly tight x ring. The barrel was a WOA Shillen 7.5R 20" service rifle with Wylde chamber, well over 4000 rounds. I was still cleaning 600 full course target also with the 80.5 Berger this summer at Perry before I pulled it. WOA is my go to for service rifle tubes. C/Lake is great too. Button barrels I pull at about 3000-3500 max but this one kept going.
     

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    just browsing

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    Had CLE/Bartlein and honestly couldn’t tell a difference between it and my WOA SPR barrel. Both were hammers but kept the White Oak just because it was like half the price of the CLE.

    Only other experience was with Proof and while it certainly wasn’t bad, it wasn’t as good as the CLE/WOA.
     
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    J-Fonz

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    The BF $199 WOA deal is a steal. I’ve also had good luck with Criterion and Proof, but cost is a bit higher.
     

    vinniedelpino

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    In the 90s there were really only 3 places you could buy high end AR barrels. CLE, WOA(CLE made their barrels back then) and Accuracy Speaks. Those were the top 3 high power barrel makers in the country for years. Derrick sold Accuracy Speaks. WOA and CLE can use any blanks, WOA house barrels are along the same quality as Criterion but I believe Criterion uses 410 stainless instead of 416. 15-20 years ago I tried some Shilen blanks in ARs but they didn't last long, it has to be the softest stainless I have ever seen.
    Ditto on the Shilen.

    WOA is great, but the selection is a little meh. Same with the proof prefits.

    I'd like to see PVA offer AR barrels at some point.
     

    fdkay

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    I've currently got a Faxon match barrel and it's not shooting as good as I'd hope it would - around 1.2-1.8 MOA with IMI 77gr OTMs. 1.9-3.0 MOA with M193. I'm going to play around with a couple more bullet weights but I'm unsure it'll improve drastically. I'm trying not to fall into my habit of constantly changing my rifle (this would be it's 4th barrel since I first bought it) - but I know exactly what I want - a lightweight, fluted barrel that can shoot consistent MOA with match ammo and 2.0 or better with M193, and while the faxon is lightweight and fairly accurate I want MORE.

    I had a Criterion before. It was alright, but their backorders are LONG. So I'm leaning White Oak (Or rainer, etc).

    I know it's fun to drag on Faxon, but without bias, would white oak really shoot lights out compared to Faxon's **match** barrels?
    Try good ammo.
    The IMI isn't noted for accuracy.
    Get some FGGM or even Hornady 75 grain, before you go dumping money into the gun that you don't need to
     

    KineticPerformance

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    Faxon- I've got 1 out of 4 that shot decent (I mostly put them on uber-lightweight bullet hoses so precision isn't a big deal to me).
    Criterion- I'm 2 for 2 non-shooters. Won't be trying again.
    CLE (Bartlien & Kreiger)- Excellent every time
    Krieger- Excellent every time
    Proof Research- SS Excellent every time, had a carbon wrapped barrel or two that was kinda meh but still practically functional
    Exactly my experience except swap Faxon for BA and CLE for WOA. Criterion are 3 for 3 junk and Proof all shoot.
     

    benson821

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    This was the last group I shot on paper with my 18" Criterion Core, I've been shootong steel since then. I can't remember if this was Fiocchi 77gr or Frontier 68gr.
     

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    JBoomhauer

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    ^Exactly this.

    I’ve seen a lot of different AR barrels over the year teaching and I cant even begin to say how many times I’ve seen this trend play out.

    Guy’s, a good barrel takes effort and time to make, you’re going to pay. If you’re buying cheap all you are doing is playing odds.

    Also IMI isn’t my first choice for evaluating what a system can really do. It’s been “decent” but it ain’t no FGMM.
    What do you consider great / decent / acceptable prone 100y groups for 0-600 with an ar?
     

    MontanaMan

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    Occasionally cheap barrels will shoot decently. More often than not, they won’t. When you buy a barrel, you’re paying for a probability. If you want a high probability that the barrel that you are buying will shoot well, you pay for a top-tier barrel. If you buy a cheap barrel, you’re only paying for a low probability that it will shoot well.


    "There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey."




    ….
    This is oh, so true with rifle barrels.

    Taken on the average, the odds that a WOA barrel will outshoot a Faxon barrel have to be near 100%.

    I have several WOA barrels & all will shoot under MOA with handloads; the IMI 77's will usually be right around MOA, sometimes better.

    But a WOA fluted SPR barrel will also be about 36 oz; I recently tried a Wilson Combat fluted 16" barrel that weighs 27 oz & shoots extremely well & better than expected at consistently under MOA with Sierra 77's, either handloaded or via IMI Razorcore.

    MM
     
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    Rudy Gonsior

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    What do you consider great / decent / acceptable prone 100y groups for 0-600 with an ar?
    Great - Sub 1.0 MOA (5x5 round group average) this level of consistency normally requires a AR that’s purpose built from the ground up with something like a Krieger barreled upper and legitimate match grade ammo (think FGMM) and don’t forget a shooter with their salt.

    Decent - 1.0 to 1.3 MOA this is what most of your higher quality but non-special purpose ARs (think like a DD URGI contract barrel, etc.) are most likely to shoot with match grade ammo OR what can be done with a match grade rifle, with mid-grade ammo (think like IMI or Hornady Black).

    Acceptable- 1.3 to 2.0 MOA is about what a special purpose/match rifle might be expected to do with “select” lots of ball ammo OR what just about most run of the mill ARs (BA, Faxon) will do with match grade ammo. 2 MOA is about the appropriate threshold for reaching 600y/m effectively at a 50/50 hit rate.


    Again it’s possible but not probable that a cheap BA barrel or some simulator type barrel might be a sub MOA shooter, but MOST simply aren’t. Lot of folks claim it and maybe it might shoot a 3 or 5 round group thats sub MOA but that doesn’t count.

    Same goes for ammo, I’ve seen XM193 shoot a 5 rounds sub MOA but I’ll bet you all the money in this pocket you can’t do 5 times in a row, the CQ just isn’t there.
     

    Rudy Gonsior

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    Great - Sub 1.0 MOA (5x5 round group average) this level of consistency normally requires a AR that’s purpose built from the ground up with something like a Krieger barreled upper and legitimate match grade ammo (think FGMM) and don’t forget a shooter worth their salt.

    Decent - 1.0 to 1.3 MOA this is what most of your higher quality but non-special purpose ARs (think like a DD URGI contract barrel, etc.) are most likely to shoot with match grade ammo OR what can be done with a match grade rifle, with mid-grade ammo (think like IMI or Hornady Black).

    Acceptable- 1.3 to 2.0 MOA is about what a special purpose/match rifle might be expected to do with “select” lots of ball ammo OR what just about most run of the mill ARs (BA, Faxon) will do with match grade ammo. 2 MOA is about the appropriate threshold for reaching 600y/m effectively at a 50/50 hit rate.


    Again it’s possible but not probable that a cheap BA barrel or some simulator type barrel might be a sub MOA shooter, but MOST simply aren’t. Lot of folks claim it and maybe it might shoot a 3 or 5 round group thats sub MOA but that doesn’t count.

    Same goes for ammo, I’ve seen XM193 shoot a 5 rounds sub MOA but I’ll bet you all the money in this pocket you can’t do 5 times in a row, the CQ just isn’t there.
     

    JBoomhauer

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    Appreciate it Rudy. Im a bolt guy but needed a sanity check on driving a semi.

    I tend to shoot around 1.25” average real world groups with a 18” WOA SPR and 77smks. According to the internet it seems that would be considered a junk barrel.
     

    hidaro

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    Great - Sub 1.0 MOA (5x5 round group average) this level of consistency normally requires a AR that’s purpose built from the ground up with something like a Krieger barreled upper and legitimate match grade ammo (think FGMM) and don’t forget a shooter with their salt.

    Decent - 1.0 to 1.3 MOA this is what most of your higher quality but non-special purpose ARs (think like a DD URGI contract barrel, etc.) are most likely to shoot with match grade ammo OR what can be done with a match grade rifle, with mid-grade ammo (think like IMI or Hornady Black).

    Acceptable- 1.3 to 2.0 MOA is about what a special purpose/match rifle might be expected to do with “select” lots of ball ammo OR what just about most run of the mill ARs (BA, Faxon) will do with match grade ammo. 2 MOA is about the appropriate threshold for reaching 600y/m effectively at a 50/50 hit rate.


    Again it’s possible but not probable that a cheap BA barrel or some simulator type barrel might be a sub MOA shooter, but MOST simply aren’t. Lot of folks claim it and maybe it might shoot a 3 or 5 round group thats sub MOA but that doesn’t count.

    Same goes for ammo, I’ve seen XM193 shoot a 5 rounds sub MOA but I’ll bet you all the money in this pocket you can’t do 5 times in a row, the CQ just isn’t there.

    I didn't realize IMI wasn't top-tier stuff. I'm really just trying to go for 1.0 MOA with DECENT ammo, like IMI, Frontier, etc. Rifle is not designed for use with match ammo because it's a fighting rifle designed to hit targets out to 700 yards. However, I was hoping I could get closer to 1.0 with IMI. I'm going to try a couple more loads and determine if I want to upgrade to a WOA or accept the performance I get.
     
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    smoothy8500

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    Rifle is not designed for use with match ammo because it's a fighting rifle designed to hit targets out to 700 yards.
    So what is the accuracy expectation from a "fighting rifle", if "fighting rifle" ammo is only expected to give 2 MOA?

    If you want < 1 MOA, it will be Match Grade or some other sort of high-quality ammo.
     
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    Ledzep

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    I didn't realize IMI wasn't top-tier stuff. I'm really just trying to go for 1.0 MOA with DECENT ammo, like IMI, Frontier, etc. Rifle is not designed for use with match ammo because it's a fighting rifle designed to hit targets out to 700 yards. However, I was hoping I could get closer to 1.0 with IMI. I'm going to try a couple more loads and determine if I want to upgrade to a WOA or accept the performance I get.

    I suggest you adjust your expectations. You don't get MOA performance, especially out to 700yd with .223/5.56 bulk FMJ ammo.
     

    hidaro

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    So what is the accuracy expectation from a "fighting rifle", if "fighting rifle" ammo is only expected to give 2 MOA?

    If you want < 1 MOA, it will be Match Grade or some other sort of high-quality ammo.
    I suggest you adjust your expectations. You don't get MOA performance, especially out to 700yd with .223/5.56 bulk FMJ ammo.

    I'm aware. But IMI Razorcores are high quality ammo that should meet or exceed 1.0 MOA. Where did I say I was looking for MOA with FMJ?
     

    GhostFace

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    I can tell you we won’t touch IMI ammunition anymore, about 6-7 years ago we couldn’t get our regular match ammunition for some reason. I was able to secure a case of IMI 175 grain match. The ammo was used in 5 different proven rifles by 5 competent shooters. All 5 experienced the accuracy go to shit at 800 yards, I mean we couldn’t hit shit! Inside 800 it was decent but we won’t touch it. So I don’t know how good the 77 grain stuff is at distance but I would expect decent results for short range stuff.

    I don’t think expecting MOA from match ammo shot through a barrel advertised as match isnt too much to ask for as long as the shooter is capable.
     
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    JS8588

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    As much as I love to hate on Faxon, it's shooting the ammo you're putting through it about as well as one would expect that ammo to shoot (IMI) or maybe a little better (m193).

    Try some better ammo first.
     
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    bfoosh006

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    I didn't realize IMI wasn't top-tier stuff. I'm really just trying to go for 1.0 MOA with DECENT ammo, like IMI, Frontier, etc. Rifle is not designed for use with match ammo because it's a fighting rifle designed to hit targets out to 700 yards. However, I was hoping I could get closer to 1.0 with IMI. I'm going to try a couple more loads and determine if I want to upgrade to a WOA or accept the performance I get.
    Lots of people shooting very well with PSA / AAC 77gr ... you might consider trying it.
    https://palmettostatearmory.com/aac-5-56-nato-77-grain-sierra-matchking-hpbt-20rd-box.html
     
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    meritman

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    Maybe I've been lucky, but my most accurate gas guns have all had criterion barrels. I've messed with criterion, rainier ultramatch (shilen I believe,) WOA, BA and a few others.

    Never had anything from CLE or spun up from a blank though.
    you defiantly have been.
     
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    BCP

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    Faxon has an accuracy guarantee of 1moa, did you call them? When my Faxon 308 barrel didn't shoot well they told me to kick rocks, maybe you will have better luck. That's the reason I put BA over FAXON, when I had a tomato stake of a BA barrel they sent me a new one without much fanfare.

    Anyways if you want "battle" or "plinking" or "coyote" accuracy you already have it, 3MOA with 55gr stuff is fine. Put an ACOG or Red Dot on it and have at it.

    If you want a very accurate rifle then I'd say get a heavy profile varmint type barrel and a big scope is the path of least resistance.
     

    Constructor

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    I don’t think expecting MOA from match ammo shot through a barrel advertised as match is too much as long as the shooter is capable.
    The bad thing is every barrel company that sells stainless barrels will say they are "match grade" and most people will believe it just because they are stainless. The truth is most stainless AR barrels are made just like most production grade 4140 or 4150 AR barrels and no more accurate. Wilson Combat barrels are advertised as match grade but are made by ER Shaw. They are not made from real match grade blanks like Douglas, Krieger, Bartlein, Hart or Lilja but they can be very accurate and better than any DD, Spikes, Faxon, BA, Seekins or Green Mountain barrel we have tested. The one main thing is the way they cut the crown. I've tried every OEM barrel maker in the country over the last 15 years including Criterion, Lothar, DD, GM, Montana barrels(use to make DPMS barrels and are now called X-Caliber) and Wilson Arms(not Wilson Combat), and can say when the barrels made by ERS have good specs they are more accurate on average than any of the above named barrels. They make a lot of barrels for many companies and some of those companies just send a PO saying they want 100 5.56 barrels, others spec every detail like the brand of reamers to use, 223 Wylde chamber, specific rifling button or custom design 5R or 3R and type of crown.
    As for WOA and their "house" barrels, at one time they used Wilson Arms (not wilson Combat)blanks and then finish the barrels in house(chamber, crown, profile) and that makes a big difference. WOA does a much better job of chambering and cutting the crowns than a barrel made 100% by Wilson Arms. IMO WOA>Criterion.
     

    Molon

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    Faxon has an accuracy guarantee of 1moa, did you call them? When my Faxon 308 barrel didn't shoot well they told me to kick rocks, maybe you will have better luck. That's the reason I put BA over FAXON, when I had a tomato stake of a BA barrel they sent me a new one without much fanfare.

    Post a link to Faxon's "accuracy guarantee of 1 moa".


    ...
     
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    nn8734

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    Appreciate it Rudy. Im a bolt guy but needed a sanity check on driving a semi.

    I tend to shoot around 1.25” average real world groups with a 18” WOA SPR and 77smks. According to the internet it seems that would be considered a junk barrel.
    1-1.25 moa is fine for an SPR type rifle though you can likely further shrink those groups with more trigger time driving a semi (in reality its the same as driving a bolt but less margin for fundamentals execution flaws). WOA makes great barrels.

    I shoot 1-1.25 moa Mk12 mod 1 / 77smks-AA2520 and take it often to 700m with good results.
     

    Ledzep

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    I'm aware. But IMI Razorcores are high quality ammo that should meet or exceed 1.0 MOA. Where did I say I was looking for MOA with FMJ?

    The post I quoted just said IMI and Frontier, and most of what those are is 55/62gr FMJ.

    Regardless, 1 MOA from a light weight "fighting rifle" is a taller order than you might expect. And this can get into semantics about what a "1 MOA rifle" really means... All I know is that I've put considerable effort into building a couple of truly sub-MOA AR-15's (20-30 shot strings), and I've tested a lot of quality medium and light weight AR's for accuracy with a truck load of match ammo and hand loads... MOA or better doesn't come easy.

    Now if you're talking "Most of the time produces 1 MOA 5-shot groups, especially when I ignore some of the fliers" that's an entirely different animal.

    If you're willing to accept 1.25-1.75 MOA from match ammo your life will get much simpler with a light(er) weight AR-15.
     
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    Trigger Monkey

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    Post a link to Faxon's "accuracy guarantee of 1 moa".
    For the record, there isn't one haha


    I kind of find the back and forth about these accuracy expectations from a "fighting rifle" a little humorous. In the modern age, the M4A1 is about as fighting rifle as you can get and the standard for zeroing is 6 shots inside a 4cm circle at 25m (for the Army). That equates to about 6 MOA with M855 if you math it out I think. I remember looking at a slide show some years back from a military study looking into the effectiveness of using M262 Mod 1 with an ACOG equipped M4A1 carbine. There was information in there about improved terminal ballistics but also some regarding the accuracy as well. The long and short of it is that accuracy was significantly improved over M855, about 2 MOA, when using Mk262/AA53, which is better quality ammo than IMI Razor Core.

    If a shooter is averaging 2-4 MOA with their "fighting rifle" that's within the accuracy expectations of any military that's actually using its rifles for fighting.
     
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    BCP

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    AZ: Land of wind, dirt and angry old people
    For the record, there isn't one haha

    That sounds like what Faxon emailed me when I asked about returning a 308 barrel that didn't shoot for shit and kicked like a 30-06. Ballistic Advantage I had one that didn't shoot well and one of the 69$ carbine barrels that had an offcenter gas hole or the barrel wasn't timed right I dunno, both times they sent me a new one. I've had a few of their SPR barrels and one was a shooter, most were 1-1.2MOA with MK262 type loads, perfectly fine for plinking or killing coyotes.
     

    Dildobaggins

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    I have 3 criterion barrels. My 6.5 grendel criterion shoots good. Have not shot the core series yet. I have a WOA 20 inch varmint that shoots lights out with many different types of ammo. I reload and surprisingly I've got the smallest groups consistently with Hornady 55 grain SP. One of which was the smallest groups I've ever shot in a gas or bolt gun at .127 MOA. It will consistently shoot 1/2 groups if I take my time and and follow through on the fundemtnals.

    I have gone to every forum and read every old post I could find on WOA, faxon, BA. I don't ever recall someone saying anything negative about WOA other than lead times. However, I have seen more often than not less than stellar results from faxon and BA. Including the BA that I own. Never got it to shoot under 1 inch and fed it every factory round available.
     

    sinister

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    Some random ramblings ...

    Frank White at Compass Lake has been training his son to take over barrel manufacture so he can retire. He may have already passed that torch to junior.

    John Holliger does indeed turn his barrels from blanks, including Douglas and Wilson. You get his human time and attention on every barrel he turns. There are hundreds of gunsmith-machinists who do the same quality work -- but most don't do it as their single, full-time job.

    A standard, chrome-lined arms room rack-grade GI M16A2 / M16A4 / M4A1 rifle can score a hundred points in the seated position with a sling, against the standard NRA / Army round bullseye target if shooting 77s -- seen it many, many times at Fort Benning and Camp Perry every year. Free-float it and add a Geissele trigger and your chances are even better.

    If you can't shoot a 90+ score with a GI M4 with an ACOG at 300 and 400 yards (resting the magazine on the deck) with M855A1 ammo, you may need remedial training.

    Chances are better with a White Oak than a Faxon.

    200 yard SR-c.jpg
    A%20scope%20shows%20a%20silhouette%20target%20100-meters%20away%20
     
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    MontanaMan

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    Some random ramblings ...

    Frank White at Compass Lake has been training his son to take over barrel manufacture so he can retire. He may have already passed that torch to junior.

    John Holliger does indeed turn his barrels from blanks, including Douglas and Wilson. You get his human time and attention on every barrel he turns. There are hundreds of gunsmith-machinists who do the same quality work -- but most don't do it as their single, full-time job.

    A standard, chrome-lined arms room rack-grade GI M16A2 / M16A4 / M4A1 rifle can score a hundred points in the seated position with a sling, against the standard NRA / Army round bullseye target if shooting 77s -- seen it many, many times at Fort Benning and Camp Perry every year. Free-float it and add a Geissele trigger and your chances are even better.

    If you can't shoot a 90+ score with a GI M4 with an ACOG at 300 and 400 yards (resting the magazine on the deck) with M855A1 ammo, you may need remedial training.

    Chances are better with a White Oak than a Faxon.

    View attachment 8017368
    A%20scope%20shows%20a%20silhouette%20target%20100-meters%20away%20
    Good Post.....................WOA also will supply Bartlien & Shilen blanks for a barrel if desired.

    MM