White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

[sausagemc]

I have searched, but I would like a second opinion please on the load and or the brass choice itself.

Problem: My groups are 2” to 3” with my loads in my new WOA SDM 1:7 16" barrel, w/AAC Break Out.

Ammo: I currently load Sierra 55gr Blitz Kings and 69gr Match Kings with 25.5gr of Bal-C2. Out of my 18" and 16" guns I get 3049 - 3058 fps average of 7, 55gr, and 2887fps average with 69gr. I get random out of nowhere shots. (2" group at 100 yards.) (Dillon XL650, 2.45” OAL, CCI Primers all the way)

When I loaded 5 factory shots of Hornady TAP which is hotter however it is also a 55gr poly tip bullet, I made a 1/2" group.

I am using xm193f brass (swaged), and pick up brass from the range, but the primers are popping out once in a while, the shots are not consistent. I am about to go through and pull 20 identical cases and see what just a case change does, because I am using all kinds of brass and I am not happy with the results. I can pull any case and the powder is within .2gr of my target weight, but the impacts are just everywhere.

I will be trying other loads, but I get nice groups once in a while that are 5/8" @ 100, then all of a sudden, there is a guy 2 to 3 inches away. WTF?

God wants me to buy bulk and sell my Dillon for charity. I see this now.

 

[oldfatguy]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sausagemc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have searched, but I would like a second opinion please on the load and or the brass choice itself.

Problem: My groups are 2” to 3” with my loads in my new WOA SDM 1:7 16" barrel, w/AAC Break Out.

Ammo: I currently load Sierra 55gr Blitz Kings and 69gr Match Kings with 25.5gr of Bal-C2. Out of my 18" and 16" guns I get 3049 - 3058 fps average of 7, 55gr, and 2887fps average with 69gr. I get random out of nowhere shots. (2" group at 100 yards.) (Dillon XL650, 2.45” OAL, CCI Primers all the way)

<span style="color: #FF0000">When I loaded 5 factory shots of Hornady TAP which is hotter however it is also a 55gr poly tip bullet, I made a 1/2" group.</span>I am using xm193f brass (swaged), and <span style="color: #FF0000">pick up brass from the range,</span> but the primers are popping out once in a while, the shots are not consistent. I am about to go through and pull 20 identical cases and see what just a case change does, because I am using all kinds of brass and I am not happy with the results. I can pull any case and the powder is within .2gr of my target weight, but the impacts are just everywhere.

<span style="color: #CC0000">I will be trying other loads, but I get nice groups once in a while that are 5/8" @ 100, then all of a sudden, there is a guy 2 to 3 inches away. WTF? </span>God wants me to buy bulk and sell my Dillon for charity. I see this now. </div></div>

You are getting very good results with the Hornady TAP, so it isn't the rifle or shooter.

Might the randomness of your reloads have anything to do with the "pick up brass from the range"?


OFG

 

[kraigWY]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I reload for my White Oak Service rifle. I test the loads in a Remington Action Mann Accuracy device, and I get great results.

The two most critical aspects of reloads is case prep and getting the bullet seated straight.

I use Winchester Brass but not right ouf of the bag. I work it a bit, running it through a SB die, check for consistancy, etc.

An example. The Mann device has an extremely tight chamber. Zero head space. Meaning if I get any dirt between the back of the barrel and the bolt, the sucker wont close.

About 1/3 of of the New Brass, wont allow the bolt to close, or if it does, it has to be forced. So I run it through the SB die.

Then its making sure the bullet is seated straight. Load some rounds with your normal seating die then spin it using a dial indicator. You'd be supprise.

Get a competition seating die.

Only with the two above can you start switching components to get the best round for your rifle.

I really started to see a difference with my 223 reloads after I started to make them fit my Mann Device.

Do a google and read:

The Secrets of the Huston Warehouse.

The Bullets Flight, from powder to Target - Dr F Mann

 

[Temp9]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

He got a SINGLE good result with Hornady TAP. Buy another 20 rounds of TAP and shoot four more groups. If they're all good, then you need to improve your reloading. If not, well, don't rule out the shooter quite yet.

Using mixed headstamp brass won't lead to 2-3MOA with a WOA barrel.

What rest are you shooting off of?

How are you working up your loads?

 

[Frank]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I had a WOA spacegun upper a few years back with the 26in Wilson barrel. It kept making me think it wanted to shoot, but I kept getting fliers. Shots 1,3 and 5 would all be in the same hole. Shot 2 would be an inch high and shot 4 would be an in low.It did this multiple times. Got a lot of groups with 4 shots well under an inch with one opening the group up by an in or two. Tried 52, 55 68 and 69 grain bullets. Tried 2460(one of Johns reccomended loads. Also 4895, 2520,2230 and maybe a couple others. Pretty much same results with all loads. First replacement barrel I have ever had that didn't shoot good right out of the bat. I finally settled on the origial load and started getting my zeros(I'm a highpower shooter). Somewhere around a thousand rounds the fliers seemed to disappear or at least get to where I didn't notice them with iron site! It was eventually replaced with a Douglas that shot knots from shot #1. May try JBing it. I think that was what helped mine. Also let the barrel get fouled good and see if that helps.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

Another thing I do for my long range loads. I prep the brass, then just load any round (I like the Sierra 52 SMK, 25 grns of 3031, this is what the military uses to test the device).

I fire this in my Mann, then Neck size and load my 80 SMKs. Basicly using the Mann as a sizing die.

I realize of course not everyone wants to spend $900+ for a Mann device to load 223s (assuming you can find one), but that sucker makes a world of difference in my 223 loads.

 

[country888]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

You might try different powder, bullet depth. Could be the torque of barrel nut! I had one rifle that did that & i retorqued my barrel nut & problem was fixed.

 

[NoFail]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: country888</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might try different powder, bullet depth. Could be the torque of barrel nut! I had one rifle that did that & i retorqued my barrel nut & problem was fixed. </div></div>

I've been wondering about this too. When I assembled my 308AR upper I had a local gun smith attach barrel. I watched him do it. I wanted about 50 ft lbs on the nut & when the came into cinch it still needed to go more to align everything for the gas tube to fit through. I suggested he torque hard and relieve, torque hard and relieve and do that until the assembly got very close to aligned, and then gonfor final torque a 50 ft lbs.
He didn't, he just forced it till the end and I don't know how much it is torqued. But it has to be way way over 50. Pissed me off, I didn't show it, but I'll never use him again.
I get fliers but mostly I blame it on the fool behind the trigger. Sometimes I think about re-torqueing, like u got me thinking of it right now.

 

[sausagemc]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

Dillon and Dillon Dies, I would think that slow, full strokes and exacting tolerances for all my reloads would be enough. I am not buying a new tool, i will buy bulk before i go ape on more toys.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[sausagemc]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

i built the gun correctly, and i have to grease, install and uninstall a few times to get it to align. Magic thread stretching technique.

 

[sausagemc]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I went and got more TAP, and 5 other boxes to see what she likes. I also have 100 rounds of my reloads, and I am going to jump up the powder and lower the powder to see which pulls it closer. Once I know which direction, i will go and then fine tune. I would love to buy a Dillon Crystal Ball and be done with the guess work, but i will force myself to shoot.

PS i use a bi-pod and a bean bag for a rest. I have a RRA lower with a hair trigger. Once i get into good ammo, i will make nice groups all day, but so far every TAP set has been sub MOA and pretty.

 

[Tactical30]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I have a 18" WOA bbl w/ 1-7 twist. Its favorite load so far is :

77gr. SMK
Lake City Brass (full/match prepped)
Remington 7.5 BR Primers
24.5 grs. Hodgdon Varget
2.255" OAL
Loaded on RCBS single stage press
FL Resized with Redding Comp. Die set.
Shoots sub moa consistanly, also a very popular reload.

Use at own risk.

 

[BigBlue&Goldie]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I have a 20" WOA and it loves 69gr SMK's with 24.5 Varget. I don't see where you mentioned the powder/charges you were using? Also, start shooting matched head stamp brass. There are large variations from manufacturer to manufacturer.

 

[Layton]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I would think using range brass would trump most anything at this point. I don't see how you'll get the kind of consistency you're looking for with all the variations/unknowns you're injecting into the process using it. You'll be chasing a ghost until you address that issue.

I just put a 16" WOA barrel on a build and it is very consistent using Hornady 75g SuperPerformance Match. I'm using the 5.56 flavor in a Wylde chamber.

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

Try Reloader-15 w/ a 77smk.

Start at 24.0 grains loading in .2 grain increments to 25.2 grains. Remington match primers, Lake city brass.

 

[Jhnmdahl]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

If one loads the same charge and OAL in Lake City brass and, say, Win 223 brass and mixes them in a five shot group, I could see a variation in the group as a result of different case capacity. I'd try to reload a set using all the same brass, and see how that goes. Once fired Lake City is too cheap to spend a lot of time on random lot stuff if you're seeking accuracy.

John

 

[majohnson2]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

Are taking into consideration twist rate vs bullet weight?

Before your start torquing things, its paramount that everything is cleaned and prepped. And in most cases has some form of lubrication to prevent the threads from galling.

 

[timelinex]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sausagemc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">pick up brass from the range </div></div>

you don't have to waste another dollar experimenting. Start with this problem right here! I can't believe you expect anykind of accuracy with it. Brass manufacturer and even reload cycled can make HUGE differences. For example in a 308, you need 2 more full grains for varget to have the same velocity/pressure using lapue brass instead of LC.

 

[TGagnon]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I use range pick up but I sort it all into batches by headstamp. If any in a same batch have different head stamps say hornady tap from another hornday line with different markings then it goes separate. I however have space to store the brass I don't have enough of yet till I find more and this is a big problem for me budy. He picks up sorts and sends to me for final sort and I send him back brass.

 

[Kinsman09]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I was having a similar issue. Long story short.
Get a Headspace Gauge. Set your die up so you back the shoulder of the case up only about .002 Back down on your powder charge to lowest charge in your manual and then work up. Check reloading section of this site. Lots of good information.

D

 

[kraigWY]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I use to pick up range brass, and I use to catch machine gun brass fired on ice (which was considered to be un recoverable).

Not because I would reload it. but because I was using NG Ammo and had to turn in brass. The ASP dosn't know juck brass from match brass.

I've even been known to volenteer as a range officer for airal gunnery so I could hang off the skids catch brass out of machine guns in a ruck sack so I could have turn in brass.

So I would gather each piece of brass I could, and I would trade once fires match brass to civilians for their junk, multi loaded brass. Just so I had wight to turn in. People would go to ranges picking up every thing that looked like brass to trade or our guard brass.

But I would never use pick up brass in my rifles. Brass is relatively cheap compared to rifles.

Not in the guard anymore, but I save my used brass and sell it to scrap dealers or trade it for lead for casting my pistoland revolver bullets.

 

[sausagemc]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I used high temp grease and torqued it on and off until it was perfect. thanks for the advice.

 

[sausagemc]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

Well I am deep into this, 2500 in the gun, 1000 i the m4-2000, I think I can buy some good brass.

where can I buy a hand full, I was told tjconevera has good deals on used, prepared brass, but what is the best quality and quantity?

 

[sausagemc]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I want to say thank you to all of you, most people I talked to said that the brass can't make that much of a difference. You guys nailed it almost instantly and had data to back it up.

I going into the dungeon and load 20 69 grains in matched pmc brass I shot yesterday. We shall see what that provides.

 

[sausagemc]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

OK, so admittedly, I am trying to take the easy way out. I can buy prvi partizan ammo for 487.50 / 1,000. It is 69gr or 75gr hpbt Match ammo. I saw a bunch of reviews and for the extra cost to not spend time reloading all month for my dog shooting it looks like a good deal. Suggestions or i am being a b!tch at this point?

 

[Layton]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sausagemc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">most people where like the brass can't make that much of a difference. apparently I need better advice and better experienced shooters.
</div></div>

Everything about your original post says something about your process is introducing inconsistencies resulting in fliers. You shoot factory loads at .5" groups out of 2 rifles. You only have the problem with your reloads. The biggest unknown about your loading process is the condition of the brass.

I guess I don't understand why the brass would not be the most apparent suspect given everything else is equal. You said the rifles and you shoot just fine with factory loads and again the range brass is the biggest variable. So why wouldn't you start there?

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sausagemc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am using xm193f brass (swaged), and pick up brass from the range, but the primers are popping out once in a while</div></div>

I tried to find the diff between xm193f and xm193. Does this mean Federal brass vs. Lake City? I wouldn't use any Federal marked brass as those primer pockets get soft really fast which could be why they're popping. I've seen that with their FGMM .223 myself. I think I'd buy some brass and check your sizing as was suggested. One of the AZ HP rifle teams has been using Dillons for years with H335 IIRC, I don't think that's going to be your problem. God still loves you, LOL.

I wouldn't think it would be a problem with the powder you're using but I would pull a case every so often and weigh the charge to be sure. You're going to have to troubleshoot in steps to isolate your problem.

 

[sausagemc]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

No no, I was complimenting the fact that the guys on here were right onto the brass and had data to back up the reason my random brass was causing the issue. I just loaded 60 rounds of matched brass cases and will try it all out tomorrow. I got a feeling that i will be super happy.

 

[sausagemc]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I looked at the brass that didn't have primers tonight, and frankly they were all military that was previously crimped, and now is swagged. The Hornady brass i used today is much better feeling when the primer slides in.

Anybody know what 3500 rounds of swagged military brass is worth?

gunbroker here i come.

 

[The Gump]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I do not use match brass. I do however use primer crimped brass that I pick up at the range. With 69's and H335 I can hold 1.25 MOA, all day long.

I wouldn't really get hung up on trying to shoot .5 MOA, all day long. In my opinion it is an unrealistic goal for the overwhelming majority of shooters. If this weren't the case there would be a bunch more people posting their results in the 6 group/30 round challenge. Be upset with me if you must. But until more .5 MOA all day long shooters start adding to the 6/30 thread my belief is most semiautos have a hard time holding .5 MOA all day long.

I would retorque the barrel nut, check your scope mount, and shoot it w/o a muzzle device.

With 55grFMJ's/H335 & my 18" 1/7 WOA I can hold 3 MOA, all day long.

 

[sausagemc]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I am well within 3 MOA, and i am at a 1.5 MOA with normal 55 FMJ, but when i shoot Hornady, i am sub MOA no problem. I also have a 24 power scope and use a bi-pod with a bean bag in the rear. I assure you i am cheating, but these barrels are capable, my ammo just wasn't.

I have a RRA upper that is sub MOA also, but it is a full bull barrel and not threaded. I want the kinks worked out before my gun muffler arrives.

Talking to Brent at BHA about dome 69 grain match to try out.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I'd checkout Southwest Ammo too, reasonably priced with different kinds of brass for reloading. If it shoots sub moa before you reload it then shoot it again and it shoots bad you know there's something wrong in your reloading process.

Edit most of their stuff seems to be out of stock.

 

[sausagemc]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I reloaded 12 69gr bthp sierra match ammo. They basically all touched at 2700 fps with matched Hornady cases.

However it appears that i went to aggressive with the 1:7 WOA barrel. I am seeing that more rounds would actually prefer the 1:8 twist.

Kinda bummed.

 

[sausagemc]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

I have gotten the accuracy issue under control, the problem i am seeing now is that i really can't see the benefits of a 1:7 twist. I thought it would be perfect for 69 and 75 grain bullets, but from the information i am now finding, even Prvi Partisan 75 gr would be shot better at 1:7.7 aka 1:8 is the way to go.

I was amazed at the group i got from Federal AE varmint tipped 50gr bullets. It appears the Greenhill's Formula overrides any comment you see about 50 grains being too light for my gun. (sub-moa 50 grain blows my mind.)

 

[Temp9]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

Ignore Greenhill's formula. That was designed as a rule of thumb for low velocity lead round nose bullets. Instead, find a stability calculator that uses the Miller rule for stability, like the one JBM has on their website.

Also, don't worry about the 1:7 "over-stabilizing" light bullets. This is more of an issue with poor quality bullets, as their center of mass may not be perfectly in line with the bore. Therefore, the faster you spin it, the more it will wobble.

 

[sausagemc]

Re: White Oaks Barrel and I can't reload very well...

that would explain why the blitzkings were garbage and the hornady were amazing at 5 grains lighter.