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Who here has given up....

garandman

Bad Advice for Free
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Minuteman
Nov 17, 2009
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Huntington WV
....on .223?

In days past, I sent lots of it down range.

But I'm kinda done with it, I think. To me, Its kinda a mouse caliber. And I guess I've also moved more into precision rifle, since I rarely find myself in combat, where a semi auto would be a real asset.


It might also have to do with the fact that its so expensive to throw around a lot of ammo in semi.

Am I weird?
 
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Personally I've never seen the allure of it. I even put off getting an AR until a few years ago because of it. I have 3 now and a whole lot of 5.56 ammo now but only because its kinda imperative now. Everyone needs at least one AR, a .308 and a 9mm in the safe. At least I can change calibers on my LMTs easily. The only kind of shooting that interests me for the 223/5.56 is taking classes to be proficient with them. Not just blasting away with them.
 
Mine has pretty well taken the place of my 22 LR. So.....nope, haven't given up.

Just the opposite with me... my Spikes Tactical 22rf upper with suppressor is about the only use my AR15 lower gets. Now THAT is fun!
 
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The only 223 left is my AR shorty which has a few uses of course but even with 75's it peters out pretty bad past 500Y so it doesn't get shot much except for the occasional carbine stage, varmint hunting or plinking.

Even though I've owned a half dozen comprised of other semi auto's, a contender and a few bolt guns I consider it a short to medium range cartridge.

I think about building another 223 bolt gun sometimes but then it occurs to me that I can take that money and buy barrels and components for my 6x47L and get "real" practice in when taking into consideration wind, drop and using the go-to rifle, plus always having a fresh barrel ready for specific matches is nice.
 
I just graduated this year and finally have the money to buy nice rifles and have been in the same sort of situation. I don't even have an AR and am tempted to buy an SBR and suppressor for it but I'm afraid I would end up getting tired of just blowing through ammo and wish I had built or bought something different.
 
My .223 didn't seem to shoot far enough so I bought a 6.5 Grendel upper thinking I would save some $$$. and get out to 1K. Reloading is expensive as hell so I found myself switching uppers back and forth... a real pain in the butt. Next purchase was a RRR lower, etc,etc. There is no such thing as inexpensive shooting anymore. Now I go out and shoot one AR at 500 yds and the other at 1k. Averaging the cost a great way to rationalize having two AR's.
 
I never bought a 5.56/.223 AR. I have 3 SIG 556R's, 2 AK's with 25k+ rounds for them and my POF P308. I have no need for a AR in .223
 
I started long range with a .223. ALOT cheaper to learn with .223 then any other caliber. And when you get decent at shooting an 80gr .224 bullet @ 1k the bigger calibers are that much easier. :)
 
I started long range with a .223. ALOT cheaper to learn with .223 then any other caliber. And when you get decent at shooting an 80gr .224 bullet @ 1k the bigger calibers are that much easier. :)

This is why I was looking at getting a longer barrel AR setup more for precision. Would be so much cheaper to load for than my 308 and I rarely have anywhere to shoot past five or six hundred yards.
 
....on .223?

In days past, I sent lots of it down range.

But I'm kinda done with it, I think. To me, Its kinda a mouse caliber. And I guess I've also moved more into precision rifle, since I rarely find myself in combat, where a semi auto would be a real asset.


It might also have to do with the fact that its so expensive to throw around a lot of ammo in semi.

Am I weird?

150-200fps less than the 22/250 using 50gr pills.
2825fps with 80gr long range bullets form 22" barrels, 9.5mills and still transonic well past 1000 yards. (500ASL)

mouse rounds? Those gotta be some pretty big mice you got there. Maybe they could be domesticated to plow the fields.

I however agree that spraying out targets from a bench with an autoloader is both useless and boring, but that is the case no matter what caliber.
 
This is why I was looking at getting a longer barrel AR setup more for precision. Would be so much cheaper to load for than my 308 and I rarely have anywhere to shoot past five or six hundred yards.

White OAK Armament 26" Upper with 1:8 twist is what I used. Best 3 shot group was 1" @ 500yrd with 80gr A-MAX.
 
I dont mind it. I dont understand the need for a 12-16 pound semi auto 223 rifle though. I can shoot my 16" wilson barrel as good as my old build up 20" RRA NM and 24" rifle that weight 1.5 to 2x more.
 
I like the AR15 because of the erector set experience--- building is limited only by your imagination. And you only need a few lowers with diff buttstocks and triggers and you can have as many rifles.............lots of calibers out there if ya don't like 556!
You can build it any weight you want if you have the cash for a wrapped cf barrel. There is a reason it's become America's rifle.
 
I wont let mine go yet. It cant be beat for p-dogs to antelope IMO...just ask the 40+ thousands I've laid to rest with a .223 in a bolt gun and 400+ coyote with my .223 AR15s
 
All depends on what you want to do with your rifle and what situations you see yourself using it.

I'd guess most of the precision rifle shooters here will not be tasked to take out bad guys at 1,000 yards any time soon and though the possibility that they will be involved in combat with their 5.56 rifles is nearly as remote a possibility, fact is that you use different tools for different jobs.

My primary purpose in shooting is recreation and fun but I always keep in mind I'm using what clearly are weapons and I like knowing that, as best as I'm able, I'm prepared to use different tools for different jobs. I enjoy becoming as proficient as possible with my handguns, shotguns, 5.56 carbines and now with a precision rifle.
 
250px-John_Paul_Jones2.jpg
 
I still prefer .223/5.56 for AR-15's. I haven't seen anything substantially better to make me want to change. I have never had trouble killing deer or varmints with it either.

I do see a 6.5 Grendel or something similar in my future, but not to replace anything.
 
My best groups between my 7.62 and 5.56 all the way up to 600yards have been with 5.56 so id say its just you. If all you're doing is punching holes in paper, then why not save the ammo money with 5.56.


....on .223?

In days past, I sent lots of it down range.

But I'm kinda done with it, I think. To me, Its kinda a mouse caliber. And I guess I've also moved more into precision rifle, since I rarely find myself in combat, where a semi auto would be a real asset.


It might also have to do with the fact that its so expensive to throw around a lot of ammo in semi.

Am I weird?
 
not me, been and still shooting 223 when i first bought my ar when the only game in town that made ar's was colt.
 
Not me. It would be boring just shooting an ar from a bench. Glad I built myself a little "playground"!

 
Although I have shot my bolt action .308 in a 3 gun comp (and placed top 20%), the AR will continue to be my 3 gun rifle, and there are still a lot more 3 gun matches within a 4 hour drive than precision matches. Besides that, I've killed more deer with the .223 the past few years than anything else. So, although I don't shoot a .223 for precision, I'm far from giving up on it.
 
not me, I make a cash living off deflating coyotes and pretty damn hard to break the regime after 2 years in the sand box with it. considering my professions have all carried the round by my side I am pretty much married to it, but I use my M14 just as much
 
I think you would be hard-pressed to convince anyone who ever had to deploy a mk12 that it was a 'mouse round.'
 
I happen to love my 15lb mouse gun and would rather shoot a service rifle match over a 1000 yard f class match any day. :)
 
I love the 5.56, I love the 308 more. However I can shoot thw mouse gun cheaped than the 08. I have a JP LRP07, and a SCR 11 setup the same way, makes a great practice tool for its bigger brother.

Oh and the other nice thing about 5.56......chicks love shooting ot!
 
I just like how the ar platform is so standardized. I can change my gun around with out to much difficulty... Inside 100 and all the way to 600 with my 16 carbine. If I want to father just put on a new upper... The only thing I can hunt with it are cyote but still fun to punch paper and steel. If we had pdogs in Iowa that would be sweet!

Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk
 
Probably a separate issue.


I am sure Dr. Phil can help you out with that one.

As far as the 5.56; I am also shooting way more 7.62. Like gas auto but they don't hold a candle to a precision bolt gun....
 
not me, I make a cash living off deflating coyotes and pretty damn hard to break the regime after 2 years in the sand box with it. considering my professions have all carried the round by my side I am pretty much married to it, but I use my M14 just as much

on the nail head, firefighter
my ar15 in 223/556,& an 6.8 is what we use to put fur on the boards,
now some will say why a ar, all i can say live an learn,
most of the time only 1 maybe 2 will come into call, but when more come a running i am glad
my AR's are with me, we had 4 rush in thanksgiving night, an all 4 got a ride in the back of the truck
now please dont get me wrong to each his own, but for me most of the time the AR's will be my main yote gun

what sand box you playing in fire fighter,
here in NC getting better, at seeing ol wily lately
 
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The ammunition price gouging has made me shift gears to more Designated Marksmen courses, versus Close Quarters Marksmanship courses over the past year.

I still have plenty of 5.56 NATO carbines as the default law-abiding adult citizen's responsibility for maintaining and well-regulating proficiency with as a common shoulder-fired arm, but I have mostly only taken the 6.5 Grendel and .260 Remington out this year for precision rifle training out at distance.

My 18" JP barreled upper will be replaced with a Lilja-barreled 6.5 Grendel setup the same way. I'm also adding another 16" Lilja barrel Grendel to the collection, so I will be shooting Grendel a lot more.

I still love 5.56 with the 77gr SMK, 69gr SMK, 68gr HPBT, 69gr Scenar, 77gr Scenar, and 75gr A-MAX at distance, and M193 or Barnes 70gr TSX for killing things close-in.

5.56 became my plinker cartridge back in 1988, and I only use .22LR for initial basic pistol marksmanship with new shooters now.
 
I think you would be hard-pressed to convince anyone who ever had to deploy a mk12 that it was a 'mouse round.'



Yer right.... the AR10 doesn't exist, and has never been deployed anywhere ever. Cuz the military sees no need for a bullet heavier than 77grains.
 
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Yer right.... the AR10 doesn't exist, and has never been deployed anywhere ever. Cuz the military sees no need for a bullet heavier than 77grains.

What does that have to do with the Mk12? You're trying to say that the military does in fact see a need for a bullet heavier than 77gr and he's making a point about the Mk12 doing the job.
 
What does that have to do with the Mk12? You're trying to say that the military does in fact see a need for a bullet heavier than 77gr and he's making a point about the Mk12 doing the job.

What does your post have to do with anything?

The existence of the AR10 is proof the MK12 isn't doing every job the military needs.... for many jobs, its "mousy." I personally view it as "mousy." Its called an opinion. You are not required to adopt it.

I built an MK12. It shot tiny little groups. With tiny little 69 and 77 grain bullets. I got rid of it when I also built an AR10. It was redundant, except it was just less than the AR10 in all performance categories.
 
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(At least) 2 things soured me on .223 -

1. I was shooting a three gun course, and I noticed a round keyholed in the cardboard target. A foot in front of the target, I found a PERFECT 223 hole thru a leaf. A mere leaf caused the 223 to tumble.

2. When I was shooting 600 yard (reduced to 200) NRA highpower matches, WAY too often I could not see the tiny little 223 holes in the black. Or in the white. At 200 yards. With a Kowa spotter. .30 holes are easy to see in most any condition.
 
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(At least) 2 things soured me on .223 -

1. I was shooting a three gun course, and I noticed a round keyholed in the cardboard target. A foot in front of the target, I found a PERFECT 223 hole thru a leaf. A mere leaf caused the 223 to tumble.

2. When I was shooting 600 yard (reduced to 200) NRA highpower matches, WAY too often I could not see the tiny little 223 holes in the black. Or in the white. At 200 yards. With a Kowa spotter. .30 holes are easy to see in most any condition.

I'd have a very hard time believing a leaf turned a bullet sideways within one foot. Time for me to experiment, i think. Point 2 is very valid, though.
 
I'd have a very hard time believing a leaf turned a bullet sideways within one foot. Time for me to experiment, i think. .

Its a true story. Good friend was there and he confirmed. I can't imagine anything else that caused it to keyhole, tho 1 foot does seem tight quarters.
 
Since I started shooting 6.8, the 5.56 has been used for cheap-er plinking and letting new guys learn from. While I will always have a 5.56 for SHTF, it is far from my "go to" choice.
 
Love my KAC products.... my LPR with 77 gr SMK's is an absolute joy to shoot. And my KAC mod 1 is nice and light, accurate and capable of putting multiple rounds on target at its applicable range (0-300m). I'll keep a couple in my stable.
 
Yer right.... the AR10 doesn't exist, and has never been deployed anywhere ever. Cuz the military sees no need for a bullet heavier than 77grains.

Perhaps we should toss the 308 SASS in favor of a 50 BMG?
 
Love my .223/5.56. It's a challenging round and that's why I shoot it. When I hit 800-850 with a 77g I'll probably get bored with it because I'm not interested in single feeding 90 grain bullets into an AR15. I also think that if I can hit 1000 with a 90 grain out of an AR15 then whats the point of a .308? I'll keep shooting my .308 until I've pushed it to its absolute limit and then move to either a 300WM or .338 Lapua. I'm interested in the .260 but from what I've been reading its just a hot rodded slimmer version of the .308 that makes shooting easier and I want to challenge myself. Not saying hitting up to 1000 and over with a .260 is easy at all but for me it's not about the amount of yards I can shoot but how challenging it was for me to get there.
 
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Its a true story. Good friend was there and he confirmed. I can't imagine anything else that caused it to keyhole, tho 1 foot does seem tight quarters.

Testing the Vegetation Deflection of 5.56
I've done field-expedient testing with 5.56 in heavily saturated, wet, dense vegetation in between the shooter and IPSC cardboard targets at 25-50m. Shooter couldn't even see the target, but he made sure he was aligned by popping his head up, then getting back behind the gun in the prone.

Point of Impact was Point of Aim, no key holes. We kept testing it thinking it was a series of flukes. Nope. Nothing but consistent clean holes in the target. We did this when the conversation of "twigs deflecting 5.56" arose. After 15 rounds, we got bored with it and went back to training.

Penetration of M855 Through Trees
I've also seen what M855 does in the jungle in Central America. It cut through trees I thought were cover, the largest base trees I have ever seen outside of the Redwood forest.

Real-world Wound Ballistics
Then there's the "mousy" wound ballistics I have personally witnessed on human beings with M855 over the years. Everybody has seen the enhanced Zapruder film, right? That is almost as bad as what M855 did to a guy I saw shot in the exact same place, but it canoed his head cleanly, like a large pie slice missing. Everyone that I've seen that caught 5.56 to the arms or legs had multiple fractures to the bones, usually avulsive tissue separation, massive hemorrhaging, and pretty gruesome injuries, even if the projectiles skipped off SAAPI plates after going through a wall.

There is a big difference between 5.56 M193, M855, and certain civilian FMJ's however, in that the 2 legacy 5.56 loads have thin jackets, cannelures, and run fast, whereas a lot of civvy ammo I have used has thick copper jackets, no cannelure, and slower speeds. Lot-to-lot variations in the military ammo can also see slight jacket thickness variation, which affects the fragmentation threshold range.

If someone said they were going to shoot me with a 7.62 NATO FMJ in the chest, or a 5.56 NATO, and my only choice is which bullet, from 100yds, I wouldn't hesitate to take the .30 bore after seeing what I've seen. If I could opt for an AK with COMBLOC ammo, even better. 5.56 is no joke within 200yds from a carbine, I can assure you.

Other Variables
Past that, I prefer heavier pills of course. As to the AR10 frame having a performance advantage at distance, yes it does for energy. Now throw in the fact that you have to shoot from positions most of the time, and the heavier gun doesn't work so well, while a lighter carbine is very handy getting into positions with.

If I take 2 shooters of the same capabilities in marksmanship, physical fitness, and applicable skill sets, put them on a timer against each other, the shooter with the lighter carbine is going to have rounds on-target before the one with the heavier blaster. I've timed this in my courses, using 18" SPR's vs. 11.5" carbines, 20" 5.56 guns versus 7.62 SASS systems, HK417's, and so forth. Very rarely in a chance-contact scenario are you going to have first-round hits beyond the wind value threshold of the conditions, so that 2nd follow-on shot is critical. With a lower-recoiling, lightweight carbine, I can be spot-on quickly with the 2nd shot if the BC is good, whereas the 7.62 NATO throws you off significantly for follow-on. Sure you can mitigate this with a break and extensive training, but then nobody is going to have hearing to your left and right, nor will you inside the house.

A lot of guys find out quickly that even the 18" SPR with a bipod attached blows for getting into positions fast, but is an excellent prone gun. This is why I'm of the school of thought where I want the shortest, most accurate barrel I can get with tight twist, with the best BC bullet at moderate speeds. Granted, 5.56 sucks for energy as the distance increases past 400yds with the 77gr. So what if I could have a gun that handles like a 5.56 77gr, but hits more like a 7.62 NATO, with easy follow-up shots?

Goldilocks
Enter the 6.5 Grendel, 16" or even 14.5" carbine. I can get into positions quicker than the heavier gun, have a round out that is affected by wind less than a 175gr .30 cal SMK, with 50% less recoil, and 78% of the 175's energy at 500yds and 800yds. That is comparing the 123gr A-MAX, NCC, or SMK to the 175gr SMK.

I enjoy shooting all 3 cartridges, and have slung a lot of 5.56 M193 and M855, Mk.262 77gr, 7.62 NATO M80, M118, and 175gr SMK's downrange. I enjoy the 123gr 6.5mm from the Grendel AR15 much more. There is no recoil penalty, and I get better follow-up shots for a fast correction without need of a break. It's a lot cheaper to load for as well, considering the minimal amount of powder it consumes, and I have a better barrel life than 7.62 because I'm only in the 48,900-51,700psi range, which is even more ideal for longevity than the 5.56 NATO in an AR15.

So no, I haven't given up on 5.56 NATO or .223 Remington, but I have displaced most of it for the intermediate distance shooting that I do in my own personal shooting regimens with the 6.5 Grendel. To think I would have had more supersonic reach with a 16" AR15 than I did with the 24" M24 and M118 makes me hate that gun even more, and the .30 cal nazi's of Army Ordnance in light of better-thinking minds dating back to the .276 Pedersen, let alone the .280 Enfield.
 
Testing the Vegetation Deflection of 5.56
I've done field-expedient testing with 5.56 in heavily saturated, wet, dense vegetation in between the shooter and IPSC cardboard targets at 25-50m. Shooter couldn't even see the target, but he made sure he was aligned by popping his head up, then getting back behind the gun in the prone.

Point of Impact was Point of Aim, no key holes. We kept testing it thinking it was a series of flukes. Nope. Nothing but consistent clean holes in the target. We did this when the conversation of "twigs deflecting 5.56" arose. After 15 rounds, we got bored with it and went back to training.

I know what I saw.