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Who is the most historically significant SNIPER?

hrfunk

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Ok, in light of the conversations we've been having this should be fun. In your opinion, who is the most historically significant Sniper, and WHY?

I'll go ahead and make my nomination right out of the gates. It is none other than Marine Gunnery Sergeant Carlos N. Hathcock. No, he doesn't have the most confirmed enemy kills in history; nor did he have the most kills in Vietnam. What he DID do was epitomize the professional Sniper. Not only did he and his contemporaries develop nearly from scratch the tactics that would eventually become accepted as established Sniper doctrine, but the way he approached his missions with absolute attention to detail and undying tenacity and intrepidity has served as an inspiration to virtually every Sniper who has come after him (including yours truly). Moreover, in his latter years, despite his combat related injuries and debilitating disease, he worked hard to pass on all that he knew to those who would need it most. Semper Fi, Gunny. Rest in peace.

HRF
 
He certainly is a good candidate to mention. I've read a LOT of info about him, and he was a true professional. I would mention maybe a couple of the WWII era snipers, only because they have brought about an almost renewed interest in the shooting community about precision marksmanship. "Sepp" Allerbarger, was a German sniper and the book about him, "Sniper on the Eastern Front" is one I've read multiple times. Zaitsev would be a name to mention also, again, simply because of what followed him in terms of people and their desire to learn more. These two also clearly show how decisive a true marksman / sniper can be in an engagement, even one that might otherwise seem hopeless at the time. Just my thoughts....
 
I say Carlos, mainly because I know more about him than I do the others and it may be a little unfair to the others mentioned. Also during the Vietnam era he accomplished his feats with not much more than a hunting rifle. We hunt with more sophisticated rifles today than they used back then. You can say the same for the candidates mentioned in previous wars. As mentioned in a previous post, Carlos devoted his entire life after "Nam" to the art of sniping.
 
about mr.Hathcock and his bio: can be I have understood wrongly what I've readed, but his somewhat anticipated discharge from the USMC has in some way bittered the entire story and his latest years, even understanding the required standards of the Corp components_
I'm only a foreign observer, for sure not a judge about that, but readin'about the end of his mil.career has leaved me quite puzzled_ (any comment to better my understanding will be welcomed)_

about the most "known" significant etc.,I'm oriented toward mr.Haya: not for the conf.k.,not for the legend,but because I'm thinking about a motivated,determined&proficient shooter at work in "his" country,from a little and committed army, against one of the mayor killing machines of his times_and I would add for how well and respectfully it was treated and considered from his country even after the end of his active service_
 
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Vasily Zaytsev. Killed 30+ German officers with a standard infantry rifle, then another 400ish with a rifle that had a 3.5 magnification and a god awful reticle using ball ammo, many of those were at the 800-1000 meter range, all in a matter of less than a year. He mastered the art of using what is around you in terms of ranging and blending into he surroundings. He did this all out of a natural ability, and felt it was his duty. After the war he did not try to glamorize what he did, in fact I think he did some job that had nothing to do with shooting. I know that some could argue that he should have done more to share what he knew, but he was a humble person who did not want all that praise and recognition.
 
Simo Hayha gets my cote for pure effectiveness in fending off the godless Russian commies.

Simo Häyhä aka “The White Death” is widely regarded as the most hardcore sniper there ever was, with over 500 kills to his name. He helped defend his homeland from the Soviets during World War II. Here is his story.

Humble Beginnings Humble Beginnings

Depending on the record, Simo Häyhä was born in



Humble Beginnings Humble Beginnings

either 1905 or 1906 in the farming town of Rautajärvi. Once the Soviet Union was formed and Finland had gained its independence, the town in which he lived found itself to be only a very short distance from the Russian border. His childhood was filled with plenty of hard work on the farm, which coupled with the Finnish wilderness made him a very tough – yet patient –man. A few years later in 1925, Häyhä served a mandatory one-year service in Finland’s army. While one year may not be a long time, he obviously made the best of it: by the time he was honorably discharged, he had been promoted to the rank of corporal.

Later on, Häyhä joined the Finnish Civil Guard, a military organization comparable to the National Guard in the United States. During his time with the Civil Guard, he received a great deal of training, which included target shooting. Shooting was always an interest for Häyhä, and any spare time he had was spent outdoors shooting at whatever targets he could find. His first rifle was a Russian-built Mosin-Nagant bolt action M91, and was later introduced to the better-performing M28/30 and the 9mm Suomi submachine gun. Thanks to both his training and natural enjoyment of shooting, Häyhä was eventually able to hit a target 16 times per minute at about 500 feet away, making him an excellent sniper—a skill that would later serve him very well.

The Winter War The Winter War



The Winter War The Winter War



In 1939, the Soviet Union attempted to invade Finland. Being a member of the Civil Guard, Häyhä was called into service, serving under the 6th Company of JR 34 on the Kollaa River. Commanded by Major General Uiluo Tuompo, the Finns faced both the 9th and 14th Soviet Armies, and at one point were fighting against as many as 12 divisions— about 160,000 soldiers. Also at one point in the same area, there only 32 Finns fighting against over 4,000 Soviets!

Despite being outnumbered, however, the Finns were still victorious at the end of the day. The invading Soviets weren’t as organized as one would expect: they spoke many different languages, and they weren’t used to the harsh Finnish winters either. In fact, the winter of 1939-40 was very snowy, and had temperatures ranging from -40 to -20 degrees Celsius.

The Finns were also smart in their tactics, the most notable of which were known as “Motti”-tactics. Since the Soviets would invade by the roads, the Finns would hide out in the surrounding wilderness. They would then let the invaders cross the border, and attack them from behind!

Becoming “The White Death” Becoming “The White Death”



Becoming “The White Death” Becoming “The White Death”



Hayha’s involvement in the Winter War was very extraordinary. With his Mosin-Nagant M91 rifle, he would dress in white winter camouflage, and carry with him only a day’s worth of supplies and ammunition. While hiding out in the snow, he would then take out any Russian who entered his killing zone. Hayha preferred to use iron sights on his gun instead of scopes, as scopes had a tendency to glare in the sunlight and reveal his position. While he may sound like an ordinary sniper, this was far from the case: over the course of 100 days during the winter he racked up over 500 kills, earning him the nickname “The White Death”. The Soviets feared him so much that they mounted numerous counter sniper and artillery attacks to get rid of him, all of which failed miserably. However, on March 6th, 1940, he was hit in the jaw by an explosive round from a counter sniper. He fell into an 11-day coma, awakening on the day that the war ended.

Legacy Legacy

Hayha was given numerous awards, and was also



Legacy Legacy

promoted from corporal to second lieutenant, a jump in the ranks that had never been seen in Finland’s history. Despite being slightly disfigured, he recovered from his injury, and went on to live until the age of 97. He allegedly attributed his deadly sniping skills to “practice”.

Despite gaining around 22,000 square miles of Finish soil, the Soviets lost the Winter War, with 1,000,000 of their original 1,500,000 troops having been killed by the defending Finns. A Russian general later remarked that the land they had conquered was “just enough to bury their dead”.
 
..."Motti tactics" has been even worse : cutting the enemy's supply lines, surrounding the survivors even without engaging them openly, letting them eat each other or starving to death, with an minimun ending effort to dispatch them definitively...
 
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Few people seem to give credit to those who do, and ultimately teach about doctrine, and the associated fieldcraft with it. This makes what they have done a literal force multiplier, because their signature is on the training for any future accomplishments by their students. They played a significant part in the advancement.

Carlos Hathcock had a large impact, and Chris Kyle had a large impact on training as well, and doctrine as well. These two are publicly known, but this is to show that there should also be a greater consideration for those who teach as well, because their instruction made a tremendous difference to the craft.

There are many more that are not currently publicly known.
 
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I think it is a tie between Alvin York and Audie Murphy. But then neither would likely make it past the personality evaluations to be selected in the modern military establishment.
 
Hayha had +500 confirmed, but also in short time period- three months.
Not too bad with iron sighted M28-30 Sako.

Also can't help myself mentioning that I have identical rifle in mint condition. :)
 
Interesting that no one has yet mentioned Lee Harvey Oswald even though the 6.5 M/C came up quickly in the rifle thread.

HRF
 
Because Oswald was not sniper, but a coward who doesent deserve to be mentioned?


As somewhat interesting detail about Hayhas record- hes CO started to keep official record after daycount started to be repeatedly over 10. At the same time, CO also arranged observer whos job was to see kills that Hayha record are true. Hayhas rep started to spread, CO wanted to ensure he wont make himself look fool later if it turns out that Hayha is "optimizing" hes own record.

But Hayha wasnt. For exqmple, Dec 19th 1939, Hayha got 25 kills. Total three day count was 51, Dec 19th-21st

Hayha was modest, silent, short guy. Just opposite to hes CO whos nickname was "Horror of Morocco"- originally kicked out from Finnish officer school because of heavy drinking and fighting.
Ended up to French foreign legion, but returned to Finland for hes country. Difficult personality, but 1st class warrior who led hes men from front, not behind. One of most decorated men in history of Finnish army, celebrity in hes own time who passed away alone and forgotten in small cabin 1976. Hes name deserves to be mentioned, Ilmari Juutilainen.
But still, using frozen enemy soldier as hes personal tent entrance guard was perhaps bit inappropriate...
 
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Destroyer 85,

Why do you feel he is the most significant? Not saying he isn't but to nominate, you need to list why. BTW, I'm re-reading for the 2nd time his book right now. Up to the point where he's just finished SEAL sniper school and working up for his 2nd deployment. GREAT read, IMO.
 
Destroyer 85,

Why do you feel he is the most significant? Not saying he isn't but to nominate, you need to list why. BTW, I'm re-reading for the 2nd time his book right now. Up to the point where he's just finished SEAL sniper school and working up for his 2nd deployment. GREAT read, IMO.
 
I have nothing but respect for Chris Kyle, but in reading his book I see his engagements as somewhat different from some of the other nominees. His enemy basically subscribed to the "Human Wave" style of attack in many cases. In response, he did his best to show them why that was a bad idea. Still, (as best I can tell from his book), he didn't do a lot of stalking, or use a lot of fieldcraft. More often, he simply took up a concealed position and eliminated any hostile who was stupid enough to reveal himself. Again, and I want to stress this, I'm not criticizing him, or impugning his accomplishments. I just view them differently than some of the others mentioned above.

HRF
 
I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned the British Major (?) Ferguson in this thread so far. Designer of the breech-loading Ferguson rifle and a renowned marksman himself he actually figures quite prominently in US history. He is, perhaps THE most significant sniper in world history for the shot he had, but didn't take. He had General George Washington in his sights, and an easy shot, yet didn't take it because the General's back was turned. The shot would have been "ungentlemanly", and so Washington got a pass, won the war (Ferguson was later killed at King's Mountain, I believe?), became our first president and guided this great nation on her way to destiny. He was a sniper, and yeah, I'd have to say he was pretty damned significant to world history.
 
I understand the concept of war chivalry,if ever has existed,as often encountered on some old air combat tales but, applied to sniping, it's only a failed/aborted mission_and it's funny how the "sniping culture" has been often adversed among ol'school upper Brasses worldwide for the same reason_

among the British, I like better the creative s.o.b. that, realizing that the enemy snipers were armor-protected, devised to employ his own high-powered african hunting rifle_(...improvise & overcome)

among the Germans, when I've readed that Sepp Allemberger used searchin'prey hiding himself behind an old umbrella without the silk, covered w.foliages,and after the hit returned behind the german lines with rifle and folded umbrella under his arm,something like "improvise and overcome" return again on my mind_
 
I have nothing but respect for Chris Kyle, but in reading his book I see his engagements as somewhat different from some of the other nominees. His enemy basically subscribed to the "Human Wave" style of attack in many cases. In response, he did his best to show them why that was a bad idea. Still, (as best I can tell from his book), he didn't do a lot of stalking, or use a lot of fieldcraft. More often, he simply took up a concealed position and eliminated any hostile who was stupid enough to reveal himself. Again, and I want to stress this, I'm not criticizing him, or impugning his accomplishments. I just view them differently than some of the others mentioned above.

HRF

I'm in a disagreement with you about parts of your post, but I'm being respectful so you don't take this as some kind of a glove across the face from me.

There's fieldcraft in his book. Creating a hide is fieldcraft. Overwatch(or in general) for an assault requires fieldcraft too. He took two scoped rifles with him sometimes rather then leave one with the armorer, that's fieldcraft(better to have it, and not need it).

When you talk about "Human Wave" attacks, what chapter are you on in his book? Fallujah? Ramadi? Different places had different events, and he made long distance shots, as well as closer range shots.

It really has nothing to do with his wants, or others view of his fieldcraft in his job, but more his tactics and how he dominated and controlled the battlefield. He was in a dynamic environment, so he had to do what he could as quick as he could. The enemy's tactics, and competency, are not his, and shouldn't be used to discredit him because he didn't choose his enemy. If fate happens to throw 1000 drooling, screaming retards running at you, or 1 asswipe with a scoped rifle, then in some cases(unless you had an intel report sent to you about a 1000 retards) it is not your choice.

If it ain't broke, don't fixed it, right?
 
good topic / poll, but is the criteria for the topic "historically significant" for confirmed kills, popularity, longest shot, etc?

confirmed kills, i believe is simo hayha

popularity (in pop culture), carlos hathcock

longest confirmed kill, craig harrison

women in combat (especially for the era), Lyudmila Mykhailivna Pavlichenko
 
I'm in a disagreement with you about parts of your post, but I'm being respectful so you don't take this as some kind of a glove across the face from me.

There's fieldcraft in his book. Creating a hide is fieldcraft. Overwatch(or in general) for an assault requires fieldcraft too. He took two scoped rifles with him sometimes rather then leave one with the armorer, that's fieldcraft(better to have it, and not need it).

When you talk about "Human Wave" attacks, what chapter are you on in his book? Fallujah? Ramadi? Different places had different events, and he made long distance shots, as well as closer range shots.

It really has nothing to do with his wants, or others view of his fieldcraft in his job, but more his tactics and how he dominated and controlled the battlefield. He was in a dynamic environment, so he had to do what he could as quick as he could. The enemy's tactics, and competency, are not his, and shouldn't be used to discredit him because he didn't choose his enemy. If fate happens to throw 1000 drooling, screaming retards running at you, or 1 asswipe with a scoped rifle, then in some cases(unless you had an intel report sent to you about a 1000 retards) it is not your choice.

If it ain't broke, don't fixed it, right?

Thanks for your response. I don't take it as a slap, just an honest difference in perspective. I must emphasize again, I am in no way trying to diminish or disparage any of his accomplishments. I've now read his book twice, and I understand and respect what you are saying about his circumstances. I just don't quite see them in the same light as I do Gunny Hathcock's. Maybe as a former Marine I'm bias, and maybe it's got something to do with the fact that I've spent way more time crawling around in the weeds with bad guys only a few steps away than I ever did operating in the desert. Just different perspectives; but I respect your nomination of Chief Kyle, if that was your intent.

HRF
 
good topic / poll, but is the criteria for the topic "historically significant" for confirmed kills, popularity, longest shot, etc?

confirmed kills, i believe is simo hayha

popularity (in pop culture), carlos hathcock

longest confirmed kill, craig harrison

women in combat (especially for the era), Lyudmila Mykhailivna Pavlichenko


In these threads, I like to leave the definition of "historically significant" to the person responding. That's why its so important to include the "Why" part when you post. This allows for much more personal influence from you, rather than me dominating the discussion by establishing a hard set of parameters. Judging from the wealth of knowledge we've seen in these threads, that seems to be working!

HRF
 
mr.Sutkus is, in my opinion, more significant about his story "after" the WWII end, but that's no glamorous nor is good to see how his country "cared" for it _
must be said that the only biographies available to read are from Sutkus and Allemberger,when all other German snipers are dead or seems disappeared in the fog after the WWII, at my knowledge_
 
Because Oswald was not sniper, but a coward who doesent deserve to be mentioned?

+1
Where does Lowlight fit in this scheme?

I have no idea about his service record. But his web site is a great contribution to Military, Law enforcement and Civil shooters. He is training a lot of civil shooters like myself that have no Military training.
 
This thread reads like some "most popular" vote in high school. Meh...

Not a mention of H. W. McBride, who codified the modern approach to sniping in WW1? If you've not read " A Rifleman Went To War," stop whatever you're doing and go obtain a copy.

If you don't have at least his volume under your belt, I think you lose your right to a valid opinion on the subject.

Ooh, that was a bit testy, wasn't it?

Cheers... Jim
 
I don't think we should over look some of the not so well know individuals who contributed quite a bit to the game of sniping.

One name that comes to mind is Major H. Hesketh-Prichard. He was responsible for getting the British programs to counter act the Germans in WWI. Actually defeating the Germans at their own game and the father of British sniping which is still one of the better programs in any military.

Then there is Major Frederick Russell Burnham, an American. He was a American scout during the indian wars, then served with the British in Africa, commanding the British Army Scouts during the Boer war, and trained the British first sniper team, the Lovat Scouts, went on to be known as the Father of Boy Scouting.

Then there is Hebert W. McBride, an American serving in the Canadian Army in WWI, then back to the American Army after we entered the war.

There are several long forgotten individuals that all added to the game.

Just too hard to name just one.
 
Thanks for your response. I don't take it as a slap, just an honest difference in perspective. I must emphasize again, I am in no way trying to diminish or disparage any of his accomplishments. I've now read his book twice, and I understand and respect what you are saying about his circumstances. I just don't quite see them in the same light as I do Gunny Hathcock's. Maybe as a former Marine I'm bias, and maybe it's got something to do with the fact that I've spent way more time crawling around in the weeds with bad guys only a few steps away than I ever did operating in the desert. Just different perspectives; but I respect your nomination of Chief Kyle, if that was your intent.

HRF

I think it's mostly an issue of the environment they were operating in, respectively. Sneaking through the jungle is different than sneaking through an urban/suburban area, yes (I know Iraq's a desert, but Ramadi isn't an open desert, it's an urban sprawl), but I think they're both still "fieldcraft." Maybe there's a different term for urban fieldcraft, but the concept is the same, right? You're still sneaking into an area, setting up a hide, and engaging the enemy with precision fire from a concealed position.

I'm not trying to jump all over you either. Again, just a different perspective :)
 
Thanks for your response. I don't take it as a slap, just an honest difference in perspective. I must emphasize again, I am in no way trying to diminish or disparage any of his accomplishments. I've now read his book twice, and I understand and respect what you are saying about his circumstances. I just don't quite see them in the same light as I do Gunny Hathcock's. Maybe as a former Marine I'm bias, and maybe it's got something to do with the fact that I've spent way more time crawling around in the weeds with bad guys only a few steps away than I ever did operating in the desert. Just different perspectives; but I respect your nomination of Chief Kyle, if that was your intent.

HRF

I respect your bias. I have my own, too. LOL.

I would nominate Chief Kyle, but I already put my vote in that the teachers of these sniper's are just as important as the sniper's themselves. Whether they were kids, and their parents taught them, or the military trained them, there was someone who taught them.

My vote still goes to the teacher, the instructor, of any sniper past, present, and future. It's a broad statement, but that's how I feel.
 
My opinion here doesn't mean squat, but I too agree that anyone who serves as a 'teacher/instructor/mentor' is who deserves the respectful position of honor. I'm not in any way saying anyone who 'does' the deed is less than those who 'teach' the deed. But for whatever the parameters are at the time, the ability to overcome those AS WELL AS any future "untrained for" situations are the key to this whole topic.

Even if you're in the Merchant Air Force Reserves.... ;)

Point is, if one has the ability to actually teach another, it is their responsibility to do so. And as stated prior, there are so very many that we simply don't know about. THEY are doing their jobs, properly.

To kill the snake, one must eliminate the head. It is the 'head' that controls the outcome. Covet that, and protect it. (that oughta make some think)
 
I beg to differ. Your opinion here is as valid as any other.

HRF
 
Gentelmen; As Americans we must consider Tim Murphy as our most historicaly significant sniper. During the revolutionary war, at the battle of Saratoga, Mr. Murphy Shot British general Simon Frasier at the then unherd of distance of 400 yards. Please remember flintlock and primitive open sights.

Yours truly Capnkwig

B-breath
R-relax
A-aim
S-squeeze
 
There are so many, some we've heard of....some not. I think every generation of military marksmen owes much to their peers who came before them. By "historically significant" I'd take that to mean someone who made a shot that changed the outcome of a battle, War or the like. These shots may exist, but I don't know of any. Many hundreds or perhaps thousands of snipers made changes though... one shot at a time.
 
I don't think we should over look some of the not so well know individuals who contributed quite a bit to the game of sniping.

One name that comes to mind is Major H. Hesketh-Prichard. He was responsible for getting the British programs to counter act the Germans in WWI. Actually defeating the Germans at their own game and the father of British sniping which is still one of the better programs in any military.

Then there is Major Frederick Russell Burnham, an American. He was a American scout during the indian wars, then served with the British in Africa, commanding the British Army Scouts during the Boer war, and trained the British first sniper team, the Lovat Scouts, went on to be known as the Father of Boy Scouting.

Then there is Hebert W. McBride, an American serving in the Canadian Army in WWI, then back to the American Army after we entered the war.

There are several long forgotten individuals that all added to the game.

Just too hard to name just one.

Thank you for mentioning the "forgotten" names! Great historical insight in Major Hesketh-Prichard's book: Sniping in France by Major H. Hesketh-Prichard
 
There are so many, some we've heard of....some not. I think every generation of military marksmen owes much to their peers who came before them. By "historically significant" I'd take that to mean someone who made a shot that changed the outcome of a battle, War or the like. These shots may exist, but I don't know of any. Many hundreds or perhaps thousands of snipers made changes though... one shot at a time.
Tim Murphy's kill of British general Simon Frasier falls under your definition of "historically significant." Now you know of one!
 
By "historically significant" I'd take that to mean someone who made a shot that changed the outcome of a battle, War or the like.

Taking that into account you cant rule out Lee H. Oswald. And don't buy the idiotic idea there are no criminal snipers. That attitude will bite you in the butt in counter-sniper operations.

There are three types of snipers, Ego-harmonious, the Ego-non-harmonious and psychotic. In counter sniper operations you best know the difference as they require different tactics in dealing with them, especially LE Snipers/Counter Snipers.
 
onethousandmeters


I love the part in the book where the guys are trying to get across the canal with the beach balls. I laughed for 10 minutes after reading that part. I only brought him up to stir up the topic. one of my favorite books is one shot one kill. and I have read quite a bit about carlos hathcock. they were all amazing marksman, but like I said originally comparing a modern sniper to one from Vietnam or before really isn't fair. it's a different war, different tactics, and a different environment altogether.
 
I agree, you can't compare Vietnam with Iraq/Afghan........................we had better music in Vietnam
 
Destroyer 85,

The beach ball part was epic! Honestly, if it weren't such grizzly work, I wonder how Kyle was able to actually shoot while controlling his desire to bust a gut laughing!

Bruno Sutkus was another one as well. I almost mentioned him earlier, and now wish I had. His actual sniper record is one of the few that actually survived WWII intact. In addition, he talks quite a bit about his training, his thoughts on the rifle, marksmanship, personal qualities needed to make a successful sniper, etc... I've read his book 2 or 3 times. The last 1/2 of his book deals with his almost inhumane 'exile' in the USSR, and that is mildly interesting, but his time as a German sniper was exceptional to read, IMO.
 
Along the lines of the "teachers and developers" someone might want to put forth Major Jim Land. He's what we might call a "modern pioneer," and he's still with us!

HRF