• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

brand692

brand692

Gunny Sergeant
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 22, 2009
1,288
53
44
Western NE
Well gentlemen, I have MAJOR problem. Today, I got of work a little early so I decided to go home and size some brass. I got through a few pieces of neck sizing, and thought I would run one through my rifle and see if I needed FL size them or not. I try to keeping from working the brass to much by minimizing FL sizing to every 4 or 5 firings.

Sooo..... I put in a piece of Lapua Brass and go to cycle it, and it wouldn't chamber so I decided I would need to FL size them. When I went to eject the case, I ran into a MAJOR issue. My bolt handle snapped right off. I did not slam it closed, I did not beat on it to open it, I just popped right off in my hands.

Now if this had been a Remington, or another run of the mill action, I'd be upset, but not surprised. This is NOT a run of the mill action and was made by a VERY reputable custom action company. I'm not going to name what action this is, and if you recognize it please don't discuss how this company has been nothing but a let down for you, etc, etc. I've had nothing but good experiences with this company. Some of you already know who I'm talking about or have seen the rifle.

What I'm after here is someone with some bolt welding/soldering experience to give some expert opinions on what caused this. Pictures to follow.

Keep in mind, there are 80 rounds on this action in 6mm BR. None of which were loaded hot or even marginally hot. They were break in rounds for the barrel. Furthermore, the brass that is stuck in it was not fired and is not loaded, not even primed. It is a piece of raw 6BR Lapua brass, so it was not over pressured or anything of the like. It is not suffering from brass flow or bolt thrust.

EDIT: Rifle smithed by GAP. Bedded by Steve Long.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 11pt">Anyways, here are the pictures. Your opinions please. Operator error or bad bolt joint? </span></span>

DSC02422.jpg


DSC02427.jpg


DSC02428.jpg


DSC02424.jpg


DSC02430.jpg


DSC02431.jpg
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

GA Precision assembled this particular rifle and did a fine job. I'd love to have him work on it. And that may be the route depending on what the manufacturer says tomorrow.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

I doubt it was operator error. While I don't know you, for some reason I have to think that you probably know how to operate a bolt.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Send it to the boys at GA Precision. They built it & they will fix it without a doubt!!
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Heard it has happend in the past on some high dollar actions. Its fixable but kinda a letdown.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

I had the same failure on the same brand action. "They" were quick to fix it and did a fine job. (although I do recommend sending the whole action back)
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

That is why I don't own anything man made. It all breaks. It all fails. It all has flaws. At some point in time even the best of the best will eventually have a flaw. I just can't trust any of it. I would go on but I figure I better stop here. After all, I make a living fixing broken/worn out man made stuff
smile.gif


Sorry to see that. A good thing about man made stuff is the man that made it usually will have enough pride in his work to fix it.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: distantfoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had the same failure on the same brand action. "They" were quick to fix it and did a fine job. (although I do recommend sending the whole action back) </div></div>

Well, the whole action will have to go back. The bolt is stuck in the action. For that matter the whole rifle will have to go back.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

just saw picks of a remington stock bolt snapping exactly like that somewhere around here.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Typically, are they welded or soldered on? I ask because the material on the bolt handle and bolt body at the joint does not look like a solder or weld, more along the lines of a two part epoxy.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: distantfoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had the same failure on the same brand action. "They" were quick to fix it and did a fine job. (although I do recommend sending the whole action back) </div></div>

How long did they take on a turn around? I'm REALLY not looking forward to shipping this rifle. Its overall length is 52 inches and right around 20 lbs.

I'm having surgery at the end of the month and getting at least a month of con-leave. Load development and paper punching was going to be my recovery therapy. Sure would like to have it for a long month of doing nothing.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

I seem to think it took them about a week until it was delieved. Definately call ahead followed by a friendly follow-up call to make sure they received it.

I would just send the barreled action back.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

I'm going to have to send just the barreled action back. Sending the whole shebang would be about 100 bucks.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Unpleasant! Sorry, that sucks. Has anyone seen a handle of a Mauser come off like that? Just curious.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

I think there are ways of getting the bolt open but then you probably don't have a barrel wrench. That way you would only have to send the action.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

I've had several custom Mausers in some hopped up high pressure cartridges and never had a bolt handle fail. I ran a 300 Weatherby on a bench rest Mauser in a HG with some HOT loads and it never had a single issue. All of them had forged and welded custom handles, so they were not original.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

One-piece bolt is not a marketing ploy. When I asked several custom makers why they did not make a one-piece bolt, they said it was not needed. The real answer is it is more expensive and some of the custom makers do not make their own bolt.

I've heard TIG welding is much stronger than regular welds. There are a few good gunsmiths who do this.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Yeah. Its a bum deal. I sure wish it was a one piece now. I never foresaw this happening on a 6BR, much less on a empty piece of brass that wasn't even fired. I just didn't think that the little 6BR would ever pose a threat to a quality manufactured action.

Its one thing when someone overpressures a round and gets a sticky bolt and screws something up. Thats simply not the case here. It was a unloaded empty case.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

I have suffered the same problem on a custom precision rifle. Believe me I was bewildered too. The solder did not penetrate thouroughly. It was only stuck about 20% of the surface area.....I sent it back, waited a while and now its back.....strong as any other bolt out there. (But I havnt tried to break it back off!!!!!) For what its worth, I learned there are different tensile strengths in solder, but a compitent gunsmith knows what to use.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Sorry to see this happen. On the up side....werent in the middle of a match and no live round in the chamber. You have a few weeks to get this taken care of before the surgery. If I don't talk to you before then, good luck on the knee. Oh and my bolt handle is soldered on.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Yes, the bolt "handle" is formed over the bolt body, it is fitted so that there is no gaps between them, then they are clamped tightly together. They are now heated to a desired temperature.....solder is heated and introduced through the tight gap between the two parts. The heating process draws the solder completely between the curved part of the handle and the round surface of the bolt. Once it is allowed to cool, it forms a very strong bond that should be equal to the tensile strength of the solder material used. Unfortunately for you and me, this procedure was not done properly the first time around. Also you definately need to send your action back as well, by the time they prep the surface of your bolt, it is very possible to mount the handle in an incorrect location without the action to be used as a template.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

That's kind of BS how the name of the company is protected. If I were in the market for a custom action, this is something I would hope that to factor into my decision before committing to a purchase.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sickeness</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's kind of BS how the name of the company is protected. If I were in the market for a custom action, this is something I would hope that to factor into my decision before committing to a purchase. </div></div>

The name is not protected. Anyone with any time looking at custom actions would immediately know what action that is.

The company has always done right by me. I have NO issues with them and don't want to be the root of any.

My real question is whether it was operator error or if the pictures demonstrate some sort of mechanical failure. I am in no way, shape, or form, a gunsmith. Furthermore I know NOTHING about metallurgy or how these bolt handles are assembled or attached.

How would you like it if you built custom actions and some asshole with no production/assembly knowledge or experience wrongfully accused you of making a poor product without even having you or anyone else look at it? Better yet, that person had previously owned three of your actions that never had an issue, one of which shot in the teens-consistently. What if the malfunction was that assholes fault? You'd be pissed. And you wouldn't help them in the long run. ESPECIALLY if they trashed talked your product on a forum like this without giving you a chance to speak for product or make it right.

I'm NOT bitching about the company. If I was, the name would be all over the place.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

I had almost the same thing happen on my Stiller action. I think they use PT&G bolts. Not 100% positive, but the fluting and bolt handle looks the same as a PT&G. While mine never came off completely, the bolt handle was separating from the bolt body. That causes a timing problem to where when I pressed the trigger and nothing would happen. Now if I ever so slightly tried to lift the bolt, the firing pin would drop. Scary as hell to say the least. I sent the bolt back and they fixed it. I think the handle is braised on. Next time I send the barreled action back for a new barrel, I am just going to have the handle welded onto the body for a permanent bond.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...how do you all think Bolt Ripper got the name ? </div></div>

LOL.

How appropriate!
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Get that thing TIG welded on. It will never happen again (unless you take a few swings with a sledge hammer)
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Well shoot. The saga contiues.

So last night I was taking the scope off and was going to see about getting it packed up when as I was inspecting it closer, I notice that the bolt was actually loose in the action.

That really perplexed me. How could the bolt handle break off when the bolt body itself was not even tight in the action?

So, up to this point I figured the bolt body was stuck in the receiver. Nope. Not the case. I ran my cleaning rod down the barrel and the bolt body came right out.

So, long story short, the bolt body is removed from the receiver, without any force, tools or action wrench.

NOW I'm perplexed. What would have caused all this? Why would a bolt hand break off coming out of battery, unfired, and with the bolt still free in the receiver?
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

It's called a manufacturing mistake. Send it in. If you are really concerned, get it TIG welded....that what I do.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Thanks Scooter. I just now got around to actually looking at the bolt and receiver. Again, I have to stress, I don't know anything when it comes to the timing of these rifles and am not a gunsmith.

At any rate, here is a few pics. It appears that the bolt handle had been hitting the receiver. I'm not sure how much of that is supposed to happen, but from my deductions this is where the bolt actually got hung up, not on the brass as originally thought.

You can see the bare metal marks on both the bolt handle and receiver. Is this normal or may there be a timing issue to blame?

DSC02447.jpg


DSC02448.jpg


DSC02444.jpg
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Interesting.

I don't think any of my bolts are soldered together.

(Model 70 action, bedded and installed by GAP, as a matter of fact. Plus a bunch of military rifles [sako, mauser, etc.])

I would absolutely, even if you end up with a new bolt, have them tig weld it and recoat it.

Granted, it's probably not an issue one they determine what the mechanical issue is, but I'd rather just have it fixed and never have to worry about it again.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Well, just got off the phone with the manufacturer.

They informed me that they would fix it, however, they are only asking for the bolt. My concern with that is the if the timing is off I could get it back and have issues further down the road.

So. I have three options.

1. I have them fix it.
2. I send it to GAP and have them do the modification where they strengthen it with the torx head screws.
3. I send it to another firm/smith to have it tig welded.

If they do it, its free (minus shipping), but at least a three week wait. If I send it off, I accrue the expenses to repair it, probably end up with a better bolt, and more than likely the finishes between the receiver will not match, with an unknown wait time.

Suggestions? I'm inclined to just send it back to GAP to know I had it done correctly. I'm going to call Carey later this morning and see what he has to say for pricing and turn around times.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Send me the bolt and I will replace the handle and put it back on. I dont need the body, just the bolt and old handle. We have had a few come off. We are addressing the problem. Less than .3 percent that have had an issue. We will definately fix this one no charge, test it for strength and get it back. I am sorry it happened, but sometimes there is a flaw. We have a whole new design that wont ever come off coming up in the next several months.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

Well, even better news just came over the phone.

Jerry just called me. He is more than happy to take care of it and make it stronger than before. So its going back to him for repair.

Again. I have to stress this. Jerry and his crew are great to work with and absolutely take care of the customer.

Man made stuff fails. That is a given. When CS fails, that is another issue all together. Not the case here. A great thanks to Jerry for the service.

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">I gaurantee you that REMINGTON, WINCHESTER or FN would NOT have called me back the very next morning trying to take care of an issue. Furthermore I would be willing to bet that I would have been paying to have it fixed if it was one of theirs. </span></span>

Will I buy more of Jerry's stuff? Yes. Thanks again Jerry.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

I would have it tig welded back on and call it an upgrade that you never have to worry about again if it were mine.

Never seen anyone's solder job hold up as well as the factory job does.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

There ya go brand, nothing like top quality manufacturers standing behind their product. Every manufacturer has issues at one time or another. It's how they stand behind their product as to how they are measured!!!

Glad it worked out for you.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

The original action manufacture will not need the whole action cause they will have a number of receivers to work with thats the same as yours. Therefore they should only need the bolt body and bolt handle.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KHOOKS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The original action manufacture will not need the whole action cause they will have a number of receivers to work with thats the same as yours. Therefore they should only need the bolt body and bolt handle. </div></div>

I was assured that all they need is the bolt, so its going in the mail today.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brand692</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KHOOKS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The original action manufacture will not need the whole action cause they will have a number of receivers to work with thats the same as yours. Therefore they should only need the bolt body and bolt handle. </div></div>

I was assured that all they need is the bolt, so its going in the mail today.</div></div>


Don't be suprised if you have to grind a bit off the front the handle.
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

it looks like their was very little contact being made on the extraction cam.

If the bolt hadel were not timed properly and the handel was set to far back this could have been the reason that the bolt was loose in the body and the handel came off , the handel was taking alot if not all the abuse from the bolt rather than the bolt lugs , is can only handel so much then it pops off. Its would not take much at all for this to happen , I've seen it twice on rem 700's that had PT&G bolt installed incorectly

not saying that its anybody fault , shit happens is mass production , somtimes one slipps by
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

OUCH!
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

So, now that the brand has been revealed, I would like to note that Stiller and BAT are the brands that I hear the most consistent positive feedback about. Many extremely skilled and knowledgeable shooters user Stiller actions. So, my advice would be to simply get it TIG welded and drive on.

My question to Mr. Stiller: have you considered TIG welding at the factory? Have you considered making a one-piece bolt? I'm guessing that will change your pricing model dramatically and maybe that is why it is not being done.

thanks,
Scooter
 
Re: WHOA... What happened here?!?!?

I have tig welded them. If you do the 3 sides with a small enough bead to not burn up or have to remill, it is only a little stronger then a properly soldered unit per destructive testing we did. We have a design that is a full wrap around solder unit that is like a pipe fitting. It has tested to be stronger then the tig by a large margin. The Cheytac and Lapua bolts are going to be done this way as well as some of the .700 dia bolts. The majority of the .700 dia bolts will be one piece later this year. The price will go up, but $50 or less. We are working the cost issues hard.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M5NSX
What happened to this fired 28 Nosler brass??
Replies
4
Views
442
jakelly
jakelly
cfuentes
Brass sometimes get stuck in chamber in bolt rifle
Replies
12
Views
542
spife7980
spife7980
C
338 Lapua Redding Body Die Issues
Replies
2
Views
202
Chargerguy
C
EXSOCAL
SOLD WTS - Area 419 6MM Creedmoor M-Series Sizing Die Package for Zero Press
Replies
8
Views
521
Billy.the.kid
Billy.the.kid
U
Accuracy international problems
Replies
10
Views
762
kthomas
kthomas
Top Bottom
Back