Re: Why am I hearing Manufacturers dropping .357sig?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No dog in this fight...I personally never owned the Sig round. .357 mag, yes.
"The statement that the .357Sig, “has the ability to defeat hard targets better it can expand more with an equal bullet type.”, is not supported by either our research or that of the FBI FTU Ballistic Research Facility in Quantico, VA. When firing through heavy clothing, automotive steel panels, automobile windshield glass, interior wall segments, exterior wall segments, and plywood, both the .357 Sig Speer 125 gr JHP Gold Dot and 9mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot exhibited nearly identical penetration and expansion results THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT BARRIERS. Several .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads offered superior terminal performance through barriers compared to the 9mm and .357 Sig loads."
Also...barrier workup with photos.
http://intrencik.com/357sig.htm FBI .357 Sig penetration study...
http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com/357sig.pdf </div></div>
This doesn't surprise me at all.
nw1911guy,
Those buffalo bore loads I posted appear to have a pretty significant ballistic performance advantage over Speer's loading for the same bullets. I'm not sure I'd push 9mm that hard, but then again, most of the stuff I load is not for this type of application.
Either way, the advantage of a few more fps just isn't there. Mostly we're talking in test barrel, theoretical ballistics land if anything. </div></div>
So Downzero,
How would you explain the track record the Texas DPS has had with this cartridge? Ayoob (not my favorite source by any means) has pointed out it has a track record in the real world surpasses pretty much all other cartridges. I'm just curious here. </div></div>
It's probably easier to explain when you realize that most agencies that are using 9mm Luger aren't running 124 grain bullets at 1300+ FPS. Considering basically all .357 Sig ammo is loaded to this level, it's kinda obvious why comparing most 9mm loadings to .357 Sig is apples to oranges.
Comparing 1300+ FPS 9mm Luger to 1400ish FPS .357 Sig is bound to produce similar terminal results because you're basically talking about the same thing. I wouldn't claim that anything other than theory and intuition backs this argument, though, because it'd be hard to get a sample that included only higher pressure 9mm loadings versus .357 Sig.
The only way to do a scientific analysis of this would be to assure that your sample contained only similar bullet designs fired at high velocities from both guns.
That's not mentioning bullet, either. Since the .357 Sig market is pretty limited, most loadings are going to use the Speer Gold Dot, which I'm sure we can all agree is an excellent bullet design. I suspect that if we constrained the sample even only to 9mm Luger shootings resulting from the use of Gold Dot bullets, we'd find that a demonstrable performance increase from the use of premium bullets, regardless of caliber.
It's very rare that I involve myself in pistol ballistics discussions because there are just too many misconceptions about terminal performance. My rule of thumb is that if you think there's a huge difference between one pistol caliber and another, you probably need to check the facts again.
I'm not surprised that .357 Sig performs well, because all of it is hot. I'm not surprised that Gold Dots work great out of anything. And I'm not surprised that 9mm Luger can do just as well as .357 Sig with hot loads and similar weight bullets, because we're talking about the same weight, diameter, and design of bullets shot at very similar muzzle velocities.
What I am surprised about is the number of people who will spent lots of time researching this rather than shooting. My understanding of ballistic performance stems more from making ammunition from lots of shooting rather than studying the intricacies of every possible chambering.
