Why are AR15s so difficult to shoot for the average shooter?

[Roslyn]

Ok, I recognize that the answer is better fundamentals, full stop.

But this is what I see.

Go to any range, see a bunch of AR15s on the line, and for most of the shooters it is all they can do to put their rounds inside a 12" diameter target center at 100 yards. It doesn't seem to matter whether they are shooting scoped rifles, red dots, iron sights.

So, better fundamentals and move on to the next thread on the Hide.

But the same range will have a bunch of bolt rifle shooters and most of them are inside a 5" diameter target center. Many of these guys are shooting light rigs for hunting, using heavier calibers, and still manage to shoot inside 5". And many of them will put maybe 50 rounds down range all year, 45 rounds in practice and 5 to take down whatever they have a tag for.

Is the AR problem light weight? Wouldn't seem obvious given lighter recoil and many have muzzle brakes.
Heavy trigger? A 3 lb trigger isn't exactly heavy lifting but hand position and trigger pull weight might make a difference.
Hand position and style of grip? Again influencing trigger pull.
AR being fussy about the ammunition it likes to shoot?
Benches at most ranges put the shooter in an incorrect position with respect to recoil?

Am I just going to the one range where everyone is terrible at executing a proper shot?

There are millions of AR15s in the US, but not millions of good shooters of AR15s.

It doesn't make sense to me. Curious whether anyone has thoughts to suggest about this.

 

[Makinchips208]

For the ar crowd what I have seen is primarily Junk ammo.
Followed by cheap and inaccurate ARs.
Then that is shot from wobbly positions.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Shit gear
Zero training
No Experience
Low IQ

Its really that simple. Add in a platform with a ton of moving mass and slow lock time, with the vast majority of components and accessories not accuracy oriented. Its hard to NOT shoot well with a bolt gun. The gun damn near shoots itself.

People who actually shoot and have experience/training and run quality gear are a small minority. On top of that shooting is a perishable skill. Not everyone has the same eyesight/color rendering. You can only hit what you can see.

If you were a prolific shooter you would already know/understand this. But don't worry , show up to a match and I am sure the shooters will look at you the same way you look down on the general masses out to just have some fun.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Are the folks shooting the ARs really there to try their best to be slow and careful and be all about having perfectly aimed shots.

Or are they simply enjoying blasting at minute of man targets with their Freedom guns because well freedom sounds and feels cool?

Some folks go to the range simply to enjoy blasting and the AR15 works well for that.

 

[Sheldon N]

Bolt guns have shorter lock time and no reciprocating parts moving during the firing process, making them much more forgiving of poor shooters.

Bolt guns are more accurate generally, and likely are shooting higher quality ammo based on what the average shooter buys.

Bolt guns are much more likely to have a higher magnification scope making aiming more precise, versus an LVPO or Red Dot on an AR.

Bolt gun will likely have a better trigger with less creep.

Most commonly what you see is equally bad shooters with bolt guns and AR's. The bolt gun could shoot 1 1/2" groups but the shooter is hitting 5" groups. The AR with bad ammo could shoot 4" groups but the shooter is struggling to hit a pie plate.

 

[smoothy8500]

Benches at most ranges put the shooter in an incorrect position with respect to recoil?

If there weren't benches to sit on, then 99% of shooters in America wouldn't even be able to shoot at all......

 

[faylix]

Not all shooters are shooting for accuracy.

Sone AR shooters are plenty accurate.

You sound like an angry old man bitching about kids stepping on your lawn.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You have to take special care with reloading as well. If you arent using cannelure and crimped rounds you need significantly more neck tension to prevent bullet setback as its rammed into the chamber.

1-2 thou of neck tension is not enough. I run closer to 3-4 thou when not shooting cannelure bullets.

These are 80.5 begers loaded to mag length without enough neck tension:

You also have issues with plastic tips breaking off because the barrel extension is not blended and polished and the feed angle is wrong on most AR's.

That is assuming you do everything else fundamentally right, you are still going to have a rough go.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

If there weren't benches to sit on, then 99% of shooters in America wouldn't even be able to shoot at all......

I would argue it would force them to shoot prone which would force better shooting fundamentals.

Benches should be shot modified prone to get popper NPA, not sitting down.

This all comes back to lack of experience and training. There was no one there to tell them how it was done. Even the military does not teach proper shooting form. You need someone to teach and show you. And then you need to be honest with yourself and force yourself to practice the fundamentals of marksmanship. Even very good shooters find themselves cheating and forgetting at times.

 

[matt33]

Everyone else has mentioned the big contributors. Keep in mind that the trigger lock time on a bolt-action rifle is somewhere around 2-3 milliseconds. For a mil-spec AR trigger that is heavier and gritty, the lock time can be as much as 15 milliseconds. So basically the rifle has more time to move and is more likely to move between the time the trigger is pressed and when the bullet leaves the muzzle.

Combine that with junk ammo, junk barrels, junk optics with little or no magnification, shooters who don't really understand or apply the fundamentals of marksmanship, and the results are as the OP described.

 

[unclemoak]

I think it's a combination of factors. Cost and accessibility being one of them. A bargain bin AR can be had for what, like $400-500? That along with cheap plinking ammo and poor fundamentals, and I can easily see where the occasional shooting shoots about a dinner plate sized group at 100 yards.

 

[simonp]

Most of it has been covered Id add that a lot of folks just have low expectations of the accuracy of the gas gun and are totally happy with their 3-5" groups at 100, Ive seen folks happy and celebrate because they are on paper! No I am not talking about a young child shooting for the first time, where that is acceptable, I am talking about an adult showing up to the range with multiple guns. Some people just dont have the proper expectation, some lack the training and the desire to train and improve.

I tend to tune out 95% of the people at the range at this point and just focus on myself and what I am doing.

 

[Taylorbok]

The Average person at most ranges I've been to dgaf about group size. If it's on the paper that's all that matters.

 

[SilentStalkr]

No idea what you are talking about. I can shoot 1/4MOA all day long, everyday, with a red dot, offhand at 100-200yds, with a bushmaster.

Oh and dead is dead. Most people don’t use ARs to shoot tiny groups. People that actually have skill and use them are more concerned with getting hits on man sized targets. That’s all that’s necessary. Sure the tighter groups you can shoot in theory the better you will be overall but if you can hit a man sized target at Reg engagement distances then that’s really all that matters for most folks. If I got to be precise, not saying an AR can’t be, but if it’s that important then an AR likely isn’t gonna be my first pic of tool for the job.

 

[Jgault]

Just as a few said buy a cheap gun, put cheap ammo through it the results are what they are. Concerning actually operating the platform as far as semi automatics it’s probably slightly more difficult than a ak, but still something almost anyone can understand in a few minutes. Any problem I’ve seen in person it was because the gun was out of spec, the gas was wrong or the gas block not installed correctly, or they put a temu optic and or mount on.

 

[68ss396]

Go to the shittiest free public range next to where you live. Thats where you will see some crazy stuff.

I usually bring all my tools, scope levels, bore sight in my shooting bag so if someone is really struggling I will help them out.

So many times Ive found that their is loose scope mountings, had a scope mounted 90 degrees of rotation off. He couldnt figure out why L-R adjustments were going up and down.

Lots of it is shit ammo and very shitty guns.

People trying to sight in a gun and they dont have a bag to set it on.

Many people have no one to show them how to properly do it. Ive taught a few people how to reload and set up their guns properly. If they are really interested Ill invite them out to a private 1k range and they always get a kick out of that.

 

[DocRDS]

They aren't. AR is a very accurate platform. Unless you are in the sub 1/2 MOA benchrest level precision, most people can't outshoot their gear.

Has nothing to do with lock time or ammo or anything equipment related. (At that level)

Its all about fundamentals at that accuracy/precision. Has nothing to do with the rifle. Hand them the best target rifle and they'll still shoot a 5 inch group.

Shit ammo and stock AR I can hold 1-2 inches with a red dot (why yes it is a bushmaster!). Before my eyes went bad, i could do it with irons. Ammo can take that under 1 inch. Barrel can shrink that to maybe 1/2 inch. My shitty ass AK holds 2 inches with shitty wing sights and steel case ammo and a trigger weight around 47 lbs (ok maybe I exaggerate)

Anything over 2 inches?

You suck. (Step 1: Recognize you suck. Step 2. Fix it)

ARs (highly modifed) are used for high power long range. It ain't the gun.

I get pissed when I can't hold sub MOA on my bolt and have to refocus my technique. If I shot 5" I'd fucking quit. Hell I got pissed when my M-14 shot 2" @ 100 with open sights and I am fucking blind. (Ammo helped).

The shit I have seen at the public range would make your blood boil. And that's the ROs, let alone the patrons.

Yes technically Ammo and Gear make a difference. If you can't hit a 3 inch plate at 100 yards, its not lock time or reloads or shitty gear.

ITS YOU.

 

[mudholestomper]

20 years ago I was shooting groups with a beat up and borrowed Winchester Model 70 (manufactured in 1965) that I struggle to consistently replicate with my modern whizbang gas guns.

 

[bfoosh006]

I would be willing to bet , a lot of it is poor ammo choices.

I remember sitting next to a guy shooting a 16" SCAR 5.56, Fancy expensive scope, expensive bench bags , etc.... after every shot, he would readjust his scope.
Perplexed, I watched him, readjust EVERY time.
20 shots later, he sigh's visibly, and Me, being nosy, I asked "Why" are you adjusting after every shot....

He says he is sighting it in ?!

And he can't get it to group or hit the POA !

I look at the ammo... cheap Winc. M855 ball.

I explained, that ammo will probably never shoot respectable consistent groups smaller than 5 MOA... and he says, his rifle , For what he paid for it, should shoot ALL ammo great.

I tried to explain, that he should consider better ammo, instead of trying to achieve "expected" precision from the Winc. Ball.


Another guy, when the 6.5CM first came out.... was shooting at the other end of the bench line.

Seeing the 6.5CM for the first time, I Spied on his groupings. They were absolute poop.
He would cool down the barrel after every shoot... for about 2 mins.

I had to go watch "why" ?

Getting closer, his scopes rings were half off the mounts.

I mentioned that wasn't "right" and I have the tools to change it easily.

He said his "Gunsmith" assembled it and was sure it was fine.

I said, that will never group right / properly until the rings are correctly mounted.

He says, it will be fine... and continues shooting like poop, every 2 mins.

Ok then...

About a month later, I see him again, This time with the scope mounted properly... groups are GTG.
He come over and tells me, He actually mounted the scope wrong the first time, but was to embarrassed to admit it.

I mention that one because, sometimes peoples pride gets in the way of itself.

 

[Makinchips208]

I mention that one because, sometimes peoples pride gets in the way of itself.

This applies to this subject and a lot of things in life.

 

[DocRDS]

I would be willing to bet , a lot of it is poor ammo choices.

I remember sitting next to a guy shooting a 16" SCAR 5.56, Fancy expensive scope, expensive bench bags , etc.... after every shot, he would readjust his scope.
Perplexed, I watched him, readjust EVERY time.
20 shots later, he sigh's visibly, and Me, being nosy, I asked "Why" are you adjusting after every shot....

He says he is sighting it in ?!

And he can't get it to group or hit the POA !

I look at the ammo... cheap Winc. M855 ball.

I explained, that ammo will probably never shoot respectable consistent groups smaller than 5 MOA... and he says, his rifle , For what he paid for it, should shoot ALL ammo great.

I tried to explain, that he should consider better ammo, instead of trying to achieve "expected" precision from the Winc. Ball.

Bullshit.

5MOA with junk ammo means you suck.

Describing that setup between 1-2 MOA is easily possible--even with junk ammo. Don't make me get out my AK/steel cased ammo and prove my point.

Ammo makes a difference. It doesn't make a 5MOA difference.

 

[Lowlight]

Follow through,

A bolt action rifle firing pin is 4 milliseconds

Semi automatic depending on the trigger, 8 to 12 milliseconds for the firing pin.

We key off sound and people move.

 

[Sheldon N]

Bullshit.

5MOA with junk ammo means you suck.

I guess I suck then. My DDM4v7 shot 5MOA or worse with eastern euro 55gr blammo. Tried some of my own handloads with Hornady 75bthp and it shot more like 1.5MOA with the factory barrel. Put a new custom Bartlein barrel on it and it shoots 0.5 - 0.6MOA.

 

[Makinchips208]

Bullshit.

5MOA with junk ammo means you suck.

Describing that setup between 1-2 MOA is easily possible--even with junk ammo. Don't make me get out my AK/steel cased ammo and prove my point.

Ammo makes a difference. It doesn't make a 5MOA difference.

you sure? I disagree. Well I do suck, so there is that.

Budget build with chrome lined 16” barrel. It’s a cheap gun. But, all at 100 yards, same gun, me shooting, same day.

Slap together handloads with 55gr vmax
Got this group, and it will do this all day, with good ammo.

Then some Yugoslavian or some such junk fmj stuff that always goes bang…

And another brand of junk. All groups had the same poa.

Just to demonstrate that the junk people shoot is often to blame. Add to it their absence of fundamentals.
This is typical of the average person buying the cheapest ammo they can find.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Call me dumb but in my simpleton world- the "issue" to discuss isn' t the gun itself but rather acknowledging that the customer base of AR's is likely as diverse as it comes with one end being super cool operators that punched faces in in some hell hole of a country and the "I just turned 18" crowd and been honing my skills on Call of Duty for the past 3 years waiting until I was old enough to buy a rifle.

My point is- the rifle is fine but the shooters come from all walks of life. For the most part I just leave 'em be to doing their thing to free up my focus on doing 'my' thing with 'em.

-LD

 

[WeR0206]

Bullshit.

5MOA with junk ammo means you suck.

Describing that setup between 1-2 MOA is easily possible--even with junk ammo. Don't make me get out my AK/steel cased ammo and prove my point.

Ammo makes a difference. It doesn't make a 5MOA difference.

Watch any video in the below channel and you’ll see the stark difference ammo can make in group size, in particular Winchester plinking ammo is always the worst of all the ammo he tests barrels with. Groups double in size with the plinking ammo

 

[smoothy8500]

Eh, 2-1/2 MOA is my best ability with a sling/glove/coat and wobbly elbow at 5 or 600 yds with good ammo...

 

[Roslyn]

First of all, thanks for the many thoughtful comments. I hadn't expected so many responses.

My original post wasn't intended to look down on anyone. My question really was trying to get at the essence of the shooting problem.

Obviously better fundamentals on a more challenging rifle would result in better outcomes.

And they are welcome to blast away with their friends as and how they please. To each his own. Have seen many groups of friends alternating on a single rifle and having tons of fun with it. Great.

I have also seen guys looking at their targets and obviously disappointed in what they are seeing. Shot impacts all over and plainly no idea why.

The question I was wondering about is whether there is something in the AR concept that could be improved, or recommended for occasional shooters, that would let them do better with these rigs. I don't have an idea to contribute on that, which is what led to the post in the first place.

Would a heavier barrel help keep a shooter more stable through the recoil pulse ? A lighter trigger? Some way to tell whether a barrel likes a 55gr round better than a 77gr round? Should the way the barrel attaches to the receiver be changed?

I realize that many shooters buy inexpensive rigs or build their own with inexpensive parts and to some extent you get what you pay for.

And the targets Makinchips208 posted maybe settles it: bad ammo.

But if not, that was the point of my original post.

 

[kmckinnon]

Over and above poor fundamentals, I attribute a lot of “poor shooting” to unreasonable expectations. So many shooters expecting Sub MOA performance out of their rack grade or only marginally better 3-4 MOA rifles. They often seek or expect accuracy before they develop consistency.

 

[WeR0206]

First of all, thanks for the many thoughtful comments. I hadn't expected so many responses.

My original post wasn't intended to look down on anyone. My question really was trying to get at the essence of the shooting problem.

Obviously better fundamentals on a more challenging rifle would result in better outcomes.

And they are welcome to blast away with their friends as and how they please. To each his own. Have seen many groups of friends alternating on a single rifle and having tons of fun with it. Great.

I have also seen guys looking at their targets and obviously disappointed in what they are seeing. Shot impacts all over and plainly no idea why.

The question I was wondering about is whether there is something in the AR concept that could be improved, or recommended for occasional shooters, that would let them do better with these rigs. I don't have an idea to contribute on that, which is what led to the post in the first place.

Would a heavier barrel help keep a shooter more stable through the recoil pulse ? A lighter trigger? Some way to tell whether a barrel likes a 55gr round better than a 77gr round? Should the way the barrel attaches to the receiver be changed?

I realize that many shooters buy inexpensive rigs or build their own with inexpensive parts and to some extent you get what you pay for.

And the targets Makinchips208 posted maybe settles it: bad ammo.

But if not, that was the point of my original post.

As most others have said fundamentals are probably the biggest driver but at the same time a lot of factory guns would have random things not properly tightened (over/under) like a barrel nut or even a muzzle device, etc. so it would probably go a long way for those shooters if someone actually looked at their guns and made sure the barrel nut, castle nut, muzzle device, handguard screws, etc. are torqued properly and removing all those things as variables helps a lot….. imagine shooting with a loose fitting barrel and the barrel nut is only torqued to 10 foot pounds or a muzzle device that’s loose or cranked on way too tight

 

[roostercogburn98]

but not millions of good shooters of AR15s.

The definition of good seems to vary greatly among the shooting community

 

[DeaconBlue]

I’m not really around that many other people to look at their targets, but even though there may be millions of ARs out there, only a fraction of people shoot them once a year, and even a smaller fraction shooting once a month getting somewhat better. But yeah most stuff you see from average joe is something with a who knows barrel shooting the cheapest 55gr possible. A lot of it comes down to cost and commitment.

For a lot of people it’s expensive to shoot and too much of a time commitment to get better so a lot of folks just want to run about 2 mags and get out of there. There’s some days I want to take a couple hundred 77gr hand loads and will sit and try to actually practice shooting small groups. Other days all I want to do is take a few hundred trash blem M193 loads or 7.62 and ring steel with a beater rifle, and as long as I get a hit I’m happy.