Sidearms & Scatterguns why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
- Thread starter baddoggy
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Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
Per the Geneva Convention, hollow points are not allowed in combat for those who actually abide. So my guess would be that when the only option is ball ammo .45 gives better results than 9mm.
Per the Geneva Convention, hollow points are not allowed in combat for those who actually abide. So my guess would be that when the only option is ball ammo .45 gives better results than 9mm.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
why wouldn't you prefer 45 to 9mm? i'll carry a 45 any day of the week over a 9mm pistol
why wouldn't you prefer 45 to 9mm? i'll carry a 45 any day of the week over a 9mm pistol
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt Keebler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Per the Geneva Convention, hollow points are not allowed in combat for those who actually abide. So my guess would be that when the only option is ball ammo .45 gives better results than 9mm. </div></div>
It has nothing to do with the geneva convention, but the rest of this is right.
If you're stuck with ball, a bigger bullet is, well, bigger. After all, it's not going to expand.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt Keebler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Per the Geneva Convention, hollow points are not allowed in combat for those who actually abide. So my guess would be that when the only option is ball ammo .45 gives better results than 9mm. </div></div>
It has nothing to do with the geneva convention, but the rest of this is right.
If you're stuck with ball, a bigger bullet is, well, bigger. After all, it's not going to expand.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt Keebler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Per the Geneva Convention, hollow points are not allowed in combat for those who actually abide. So my guess would be that when the only option is ball ammo .45 gives better results than 9mm. </div></div>
It has nothing to do with the geneva convention, but the rest of this is right.
If you're stuck with ball, a bigger bullet is, well, bigger. After all, it's not going to expand. </div></div>
I got mixed up, it comes from the hague convention of 1899. All I remembered that it was a topic discussed in my military law class. It just states that those who abide by the contract of the hogue convention should abstain from using rounds that expand or flatten easily in the human body.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt Keebler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Per the Geneva Convention, hollow points are not allowed in combat for those who actually abide. So my guess would be that when the only option is ball ammo .45 gives better results than 9mm. </div></div>
It has nothing to do with the geneva convention, but the rest of this is right.
If you're stuck with ball, a bigger bullet is, well, bigger. After all, it's not going to expand. </div></div>
I got mixed up, it comes from the hague convention of 1899. All I remembered that it was a topic discussed in my military law class. It just states that those who abide by the contract of the hogue convention should abstain from using rounds that expand or flatten easily in the human body.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt Keebler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got mixed up, it comes from the hague convention of 1899. All I remembered that it was a topic discussed in my military law class. It just states that those who abide by the contract of the hogue convention should abstain from using rounds that expand or flatten easily in the human body. </div></div>
It also states that you can say whatever you want to say as long as you say, "With all due respect", before saying it.
It's a comfort issue concerning caliber, but in the end all that matters is shot placement.
Most of the conventional forces will not get that choice between the two calibers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt Keebler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got mixed up, it comes from the hague convention of 1899. All I remembered that it was a topic discussed in my military law class. It just states that those who abide by the contract of the hogue convention should abstain from using rounds that expand or flatten easily in the human body. </div></div>
It also states that you can say whatever you want to say as long as you say, "With all due respect", before saying it.
It's a comfort issue concerning caliber, but in the end all that matters is shot placement.
Most of the conventional forces will not get that choice between the two calibers.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but in the end all that matters is shot placement. </div></div>
So much truth in that one statement...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but in the end all that matters is shot placement. </div></div>
So much truth in that one statement...
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
And of course, as the two incredibly smart gentleman above me pointed out, what is so often forgotten while discussing caliber...shot placement, shot placement, shot placement! But this is NOT a caliber debate...even though I'm sure someone will start it anyways. Just watch...
It's just personal preference. Example, in contrast to BigJoe, I would choose a 9mm. IF we were on a team, which one of us is the "sniper" makes no difference on what caliber me or him would choose. We both have our favorite. But they (group guys) are just lucky they do have a choice (didn't know they did). Regular military, it doesn't matter if you're a sniper, you're stuck with what they give you, the 9mm.
And of course, as the two incredibly smart gentleman above me pointed out, what is so often forgotten while discussing caliber...shot placement, shot placement, shot placement! But this is NOT a caliber debate...even though I'm sure someone will start it anyways. Just watch...
It's just personal preference. Example, in contrast to BigJoe, I would choose a 9mm. IF we were on a team, which one of us is the "sniper" makes no difference on what caliber me or him would choose. We both have our favorite. But they (group guys) are just lucky they do have a choice (didn't know they did). Regular military, it doesn't matter if you're a sniper, you're stuck with what they give you, the 9mm.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
When I can carry 12 45acp per mag or 15 9mm in a gun almost the same size the choice is easy but yes it's personal pref. some guys can't shoot 45's well
When I can carry 12 45acp per mag or 15 9mm in a gun almost the same size the choice is easy but yes it's personal pref. some guys can't shoot 45's well
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
For me I would rather have the extra rounds. In comparing the XDM 45 (13+1) vs XDM 9 (19+1), you just never know when you need that extra ammo. Same reason why most competition shooters use 9mm or .38 special. More ammo=less time. Which I think would transfer over into the real life scenario fairly well.
For me I would rather have the extra rounds. In comparing the XDM 45 (13+1) vs XDM 9 (19+1), you just never know when you need that extra ammo. Same reason why most competition shooters use 9mm or .38 special. More ammo=less time. Which I think would transfer over into the real life scenario fairly well.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
In Chris Kyle's book he addresses this. Basically, if you're in a combat engagement and you're down to your handgun. Why not go with the bigger available caliber?
In Chris Kyle's book he addresses this. Basically, if you're in a combat engagement and you're down to your handgun. Why not go with the bigger available caliber?
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In Chris Kyle's book he addresses this. Basically, if you're in a combat engagement and you're down to your handgun. Why not go with the bigger available caliber? </div></div>
If you have mastered shot placement, and you can consistently hit the vitals ( for example, the nose/face ), wouldn't you prefer more bullets? You could incapacitate a few more people before you run out of ammo. Just think, those few extra bullets may be all u need to get out of a life threatening situation....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In Chris Kyle's book he addresses this. Basically, if you're in a combat engagement and you're down to your handgun. Why not go with the bigger available caliber? </div></div>
If you have mastered shot placement, and you can consistently hit the vitals ( for example, the nose/face ), wouldn't you prefer more bullets? You could incapacitate a few more people before you run out of ammo. Just think, those few extra bullets may be all u need to get out of a life threatening situation....
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
Well, OK, the extra ammo is a valid point if it's one on one.
But if there's more that one, you're screwed anyway.
A friend of mine tries to put forth the same, "I have more rounds" argument. But if you're in actual combat with cover and the ability to change magazines to throw off the enemy, wherein lies the advantage?
Not wanting to start an argument, it's just not as if you're going to walk out into the street like an old western gunfight and start shooting at each other and see who runs out of bullets first.
Just an observation.
Well, OK, the extra ammo is a valid point if it's one on one.
But if there's more that one, you're screwed anyway.
A friend of mine tries to put forth the same, "I have more rounds" argument. But if you're in actual combat with cover and the ability to change magazines to throw off the enemy, wherein lies the advantage?
Not wanting to start an argument, it's just not as if you're going to walk out into the street like an old western gunfight and start shooting at each other and see who runs out of bullets first.
Just an observation.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
Well, gunstores teach us that 9mm will not kill people at all, a .380 is basically a bb pistol, and that only a .40 or .45 will stop someone, preferably a 12ga Benelli M4 because if you have to pump, they will get to you first....
I think Military using ball ammo has more to do with reliable feeding in very harsh conditions.....and cost.....
Well, gunstores teach us that 9mm will not kill people at all, a .380 is basically a bb pistol, and that only a .40 or .45 will stop someone, preferably a 12ga Benelli M4 because if you have to pump, they will get to you first....
I think Military using ball ammo has more to do with reliable feeding in very harsh conditions.....and cost.....
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: baddoggy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ive learned that some military snipers prefer to carry a secondary in 45acp in contrast to the rest of the members they are providing overwatch for who carry 9mm. can anyone provide insight as to why? </div></div>
I've heard through the grapevine that some SF units get to choose caliber and pistol. And that some are choosing....the 1911 platform....what?! no glock?!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: baddoggy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ive learned that some military snipers prefer to carry a secondary in 45acp in contrast to the rest of the members they are providing overwatch for who carry 9mm. can anyone provide insight as to why? </div></div>
I've heard through the grapevine that some SF units get to choose caliber and pistol. And that some are choosing....the 1911 platform....what?! no glock?!
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
45>40>9mm. JMO.
45>40>9mm. JMO.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
Talk about a thread that went from a question into whatever everyone feels is the better caliber or number of bullets. 45 makes a 45 hole, 9mm makes a 9mm hole. I am not sure in combat if they take the time to shoot the agressor in the nose everytime under fire or if they just go for broke and shoot whatever part of the person they can. This is where the bigger caliber may help out. As stated above, some people cannot shoot the 45 accurately.
Talk about a thread that went from a question into whatever everyone feels is the better caliber or number of bullets. 45 makes a 45 hole, 9mm makes a 9mm hole. I am not sure in combat if they take the time to shoot the agressor in the nose everytime under fire or if they just go for broke and shoot whatever part of the person they can. This is where the bigger caliber may help out. As stated above, some people cannot shoot the 45 accurately.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
Pfffft,
The answer is simple....SF rolls with the .45 because it makes your kock bigger.
-Pat
Pfffft,
The answer is simple....SF rolls with the .45 because it makes your kock bigger.
-Pat
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
^^^ haha well put.
Different uses Doogie, competition shooters are shooting paper or steel, not people. You don't need performance, you need lower operating costs, whether reloading or buying the ammo.
Handgun performance pales in comparison to even a carbine, so any caliber you choose is not going to be great, especially using ball ammo. But the person you shoot will be having a bad day either way. Shot placement is everything. A hit to the arm with a 45 is the same as with a 9mm. A hit to the vitals with both also has same results. Food for thought, Baby Face Nelson was hit with 7 rounds of .45 from a Thompson...it took him 8 hours to die. Some reports say he even drove himself away from the gunfight (but other reports say his partner drove). Bad shot placement. Edward Charles Allaway used a .22lr to kill 7 people at the California University, Fullerton campus massacre. Good shot placement.
So to the OP, as you can see by the replies, it's personal preference. Why do you drive a Ford instead of a Chevy? Same type of argument, there's not a winner, just what people like.
^^^ haha well put.
Different uses Doogie, competition shooters are shooting paper or steel, not people. You don't need performance, you need lower operating costs, whether reloading or buying the ammo.
Handgun performance pales in comparison to even a carbine, so any caliber you choose is not going to be great, especially using ball ammo. But the person you shoot will be having a bad day either way. Shot placement is everything. A hit to the arm with a 45 is the same as with a 9mm. A hit to the vitals with both also has same results. Food for thought, Baby Face Nelson was hit with 7 rounds of .45 from a Thompson...it took him 8 hours to die. Some reports say he even drove himself away from the gunfight (but other reports say his partner drove). Bad shot placement. Edward Charles Allaway used a .22lr to kill 7 people at the California University, Fullerton campus massacre. Good shot placement.
So to the OP, as you can see by the replies, it's personal preference. Why do you drive a Ford instead of a Chevy? Same type of argument, there's not a winner, just what people like.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've heard through the grapevine that some SF units get to choose caliber and pistol. And that some are choosing....the 1911 platform....what?! no glock?! </div></div>
Maybe. Maybe not.
I have a very good friend in SF, and many moons ago, I told him about my intention to buy a Mark 23. He asked why. I said that the ammo capacity was higher. He said that all you really need is one bullet in the right spot, and that one magazine from a 1911 was more than enough, and anything more was just additional weight.
Now to go off on something related. Grip. If you can't fully wrap your hands around the gun, then you aren't going to have an easy time firing it.
Good grip=Good shot placement=Problem solved
If you're packing a big caliber with a large ammo capacity, and you have tiny hands, well...GUESS.
Stop making this a fucking caliber debate. A fucking BB can fuck someone up too.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've heard through the grapevine that some SF units get to choose caliber and pistol. And that some are choosing....the 1911 platform....what?! no glock?! </div></div>
Maybe. Maybe not.
I have a very good friend in SF, and many moons ago, I told him about my intention to buy a Mark 23. He asked why. I said that the ammo capacity was higher. He said that all you really need is one bullet in the right spot, and that one magazine from a 1911 was more than enough, and anything more was just additional weight.
Now to go off on something related. Grip. If you can't fully wrap your hands around the gun, then you aren't going to have an easy time firing it.
Good grip=Good shot placement=Problem solved
If you're packing a big caliber with a large ammo capacity, and you have tiny hands, well...GUESS.
Stop making this a fucking caliber debate. A fucking BB can fuck someone up too.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
I have some questions on this topic. Is .45 cal even in the supply chain any longer?
I remember being in Kitzingen FRG in the early 80s and having a 1911 come through the small arms shop that our CWO identified as being manufactured in 1918. This was probably from somebody in 64th Armor and we saw all their M3 grease guns. So there was no shortage of .45 ball ammo then.
Is it simply stock we had being issued (like M14s pressed into service) or is it being purchased for or by these units? Is the option to use a .45 available to snipers in normal infantry there or is this something just for SF type units?
I have some questions on this topic. Is .45 cal even in the supply chain any longer?
I remember being in Kitzingen FRG in the early 80s and having a 1911 come through the small arms shop that our CWO identified as being manufactured in 1918. This was probably from somebody in 64th Armor and we saw all their M3 grease guns. So there was no shortage of .45 ball ammo then.
Is it simply stock we had being issued (like M14s pressed into service) or is it being purchased for or by these units? Is the option to use a .45 available to snipers in normal infantry there or is this something just for SF type units?
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've heard through the grapevine that some SF units get to choose caliber and pistol. And that some are choosing....the 1911 platform....what?! no glock?! </div></div>
Maybe. Maybe not.
I have a very good friend in SF, and many moons ago, I told him about my intention to buy a Mark 23. He asked why. I said that the ammo capacity was higher. He said that all you really need is one bullet in the right spot, and that one magazine from a 1911 was more than enough, and anything more was just additional weight.
Now to go off on something related. Grip. If you can't fully wrap your hands around the gun, then you aren't going to have an easy time firing it.
Good grip=Good shot placement=Problem solved
If you're packing a big caliber with a large ammo capacity, and you have tiny hands, well...GUESS.
Stop making this a fucking caliber debate. A fucking BB can fuck someone up too.</div></div>
I have tiny hands
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've heard through the grapevine that some SF units get to choose caliber and pistol. And that some are choosing....the 1911 platform....what?! no glock?! </div></div>
Maybe. Maybe not.
I have a very good friend in SF, and many moons ago, I told him about my intention to buy a Mark 23. He asked why. I said that the ammo capacity was higher. He said that all you really need is one bullet in the right spot, and that one magazine from a 1911 was more than enough, and anything more was just additional weight.
Now to go off on something related. Grip. If you can't fully wrap your hands around the gun, then you aren't going to have an easy time firing it.
Good grip=Good shot placement=Problem solved
If you're packing a big caliber with a large ammo capacity, and you have tiny hands, well...GUESS.
Stop making this a fucking caliber debate. A fucking BB can fuck someone up too.</div></div>
I have tiny hands
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fngmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it simply stock we had being issued (like M14s pressed into service) or is it being purchased for or by these units? Is the option to use a .45 available to snipers in normal infantry there or is this something just for SF type units? </div></div>
Definately not available to normal infantry. With regular units, if it's not NATO, it's not used. SF have leeway somewhat with their gear, and also have allocated funds with which they can purchase whatever they want/deem necessary. They don't carry personal firearms, they are purchased by the unit and kept by the unit, and if they do have .45s, the ammo isn't supplied by the army, it's also purchased by the unit.
I was never in group (I'm not ashamed to admit I'm too lazy
) This info is only from talking to guys who were in group. (I was curious how they could carry non-army-issued Glocks)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fngmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it simply stock we had being issued (like M14s pressed into service) or is it being purchased for or by these units? Is the option to use a .45 available to snipers in normal infantry there or is this something just for SF type units? </div></div>
Definately not available to normal infantry. With regular units, if it's not NATO, it's not used. SF have leeway somewhat with their gear, and also have allocated funds with which they can purchase whatever they want/deem necessary. They don't carry personal firearms, they are purchased by the unit and kept by the unit, and if they do have .45s, the ammo isn't supplied by the army, it's also purchased by the unit.
I was never in group (I'm not ashamed to admit I'm too lazy
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: baddoggy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ive learned that some military snipers prefer to carry a secondary in 45acp in contrast to the rest of the members they are providing overwatch for who carry 9mm. can anyone provide insight as to why? </div></div>
cuz it all depends....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: baddoggy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ive learned that some military snipers prefer to carry a secondary in 45acp in contrast to the rest of the members they are providing overwatch for who carry 9mm. can anyone provide insight as to why? </div></div>
cuz it all depends....
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdogsbeware</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fngmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it simply stock we had being issued (like M14s pressed into service) or is it being purchased for or by these units? Is the option to use a .45 available to snipers in normal infantry there or is this something just for SF type units? </div></div>
Definately not available to normal infantry. With regular units, if it's not NATO, it's not used. SF have leeway somewhat with their gear, and also have allocated funds with which they can purchase whatever they want/deem necessary. They don't carry personal firearms, they are purchased by the unit and kept by the unit, and if they do have .45s, the ammo isn't supplied by the army, it's also purchased by the unit.
I was never in group (I'm not ashamed to admit I'm too lazy ) This info is only from talking to guys who were in group. (I was curious how they could carry non-army-issued Glocks) </div></div>Not sure how other groups work, but a certain Group's Ammo came from the ASP like every other unit. Had an incredible assortment of Ammunition of just about every military caliber that is currently issued worldwide too.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdogsbeware</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fngmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it simply stock we had being issued (like M14s pressed into service) or is it being purchased for or by these units? Is the option to use a .45 available to snipers in normal infantry there or is this something just for SF type units? </div></div>
Definately not available to normal infantry. With regular units, if it's not NATO, it's not used. SF have leeway somewhat with their gear, and also have allocated funds with which they can purchase whatever they want/deem necessary. They don't carry personal firearms, they are purchased by the unit and kept by the unit, and if they do have .45s, the ammo isn't supplied by the army, it's also purchased by the unit.
I was never in group (I'm not ashamed to admit I'm too lazy
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now to go off on something related. Grip. If you can't fully wrap your hands around the gun, then you aren't going to have an easy time firing it.
Good grip=Good shot placement=Problem solved
</div></div>
I agree with this. Grip and feel are the most important things to me when handling any firearm. It just takes away the distraction of how the gun feels and allows me to focus more on hitting my target.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now to go off on something related. Grip. If you can't fully wrap your hands around the gun, then you aren't going to have an easy time firing it.
Good grip=Good shot placement=Problem solved
</div></div>
I agree with this. Grip and feel are the most important things to me when handling any firearm. It just takes away the distraction of how the gun feels and allows me to focus more on hitting my target.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdogsbeware</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the ammo isn't supplied by the army, it's also purchased by the unit.
</div></div>
I'm not sure how true that is. The DoD supply chain still has 45 ACP, if you change the last two digits of 9mm ball to 10 you get 230g ball 45s. That doesn't mean that the units in question aren't just making local purchases, just that it's possible to obtain 45 through the normal logistics system.
In answer to the OP:
Probably for the same reason Marine MEUs have continued using the 1911. The operation cycle, grip size, grip angle, and overall balance seem to be condusive for a large number of people to spectacular speed and accuracy. What you may actually be asking is why some operators prefer a 1911 over something else and you simply see it as 45 vs 9.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdogsbeware</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the ammo isn't supplied by the army, it's also purchased by the unit.
</div></div>
I'm not sure how true that is. The DoD supply chain still has 45 ACP, if you change the last two digits of 9mm ball to 10 you get 230g ball 45s. That doesn't mean that the units in question aren't just making local purchases, just that it's possible to obtain 45 through the normal logistics system.
In answer to the OP:
Probably for the same reason Marine MEUs have continued using the 1911. The operation cycle, grip size, grip angle, and overall balance seem to be condusive for a large number of people to spectacular speed and accuracy. What you may actually be asking is why some operators prefer a 1911 over something else and you simply see it as 45 vs 9.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimm17</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What you may actually be asking is why some operators prefer a 1911 over something else and you simply see it as 45 vs 9. </div></div>
ive heard of 1911s or Sig p220s being carried. I was just wondering why a 45acp when the ballistics debate rages on.
the ball ammo angle makes the most sense.
thanks for the input guys.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimm17</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What you may actually be asking is why some operators prefer a 1911 over something else and you simply see it as 45 vs 9. </div></div>
ive heard of 1911s or Sig p220s being carried. I was just wondering why a 45acp when the ballistics debate rages on.
the ball ammo angle makes the most sense.
thanks for the input guys.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
We were staying at a little B&B in Gettysburg about 2 years ago and one morning at breakfast I found myself sitting across the table from a quiet type dude. We chatted a bit and then I noticed that "20th Group" crest on his tee-shirt. I was way curious but didn't want to embarass the guy so I simply said "20th group - that's SF isn't it?" And he simply said "Yes, it is." Later on we were talking a bit more and he said he was not long back from stan. Don't knowhow we got on the topic but he mentioned that 9mms didn't cut it over there - they used 45s. Well, maybe he was and maybe he wasn't. He did seem the type though. I'm no wannabe but I figure if somebody has a lot more experience than I do, then maybe I should listen to them. Judge for yourself.
We were staying at a little B&B in Gettysburg about 2 years ago and one morning at breakfast I found myself sitting across the table from a quiet type dude. We chatted a bit and then I noticed that "20th Group" crest on his tee-shirt. I was way curious but didn't want to embarass the guy so I simply said "20th group - that's SF isn't it?" And he simply said "Yes, it is." Later on we were talking a bit more and he said he was not long back from stan. Don't knowhow we got on the topic but he mentioned that 9mms didn't cut it over there - they used 45s. Well, maybe he was and maybe he wasn't. He did seem the type though. I'm no wannabe but I figure if somebody has a lot more experience than I do, then maybe I should listen to them. Judge for yourself.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
b/c chicks dig it...and it's cool...and they like bigger guns...just kidding...my only point would not be so much the caliber as many have already stated...the issue with me would be the gun...i would much rather have a glock (simple, reliable, etc...) to fight with then the 1911 (atlhough i own 1911's and i like them it is not the ideal gun to fight with, imo...)...too much things to fuss with in a fight...especially if you're down to your handgun and it's up close and personal...you don't have the time, distance and the wits to mess with safties and other features....
b/c chicks dig it...and it's cool...and they like bigger guns...just kidding...my only point would not be so much the caliber as many have already stated...the issue with me would be the gun...i would much rather have a glock (simple, reliable, etc...) to fight with then the 1911 (atlhough i own 1911's and i like them it is not the ideal gun to fight with, imo...)...too much things to fuss with in a fight...especially if you're down to your handgun and it's up close and personal...you don't have the time, distance and the wits to mess with safties and other features....
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
Simple experiment:
Go to local bowling alley and grab 2 different balls. 1 a 8 or 9 pounder and the other a 13lb ball.
Placement and consistency being the same, which one feels better at end of day.
Yes .45 ball is still available in chain. Used in theater and in comp
Simple experiment:
Go to local bowling alley and grab 2 different balls. 1 a 8 or 9 pounder and the other a 13lb ball.
Placement and consistency being the same, which one feels better at end of day.
Yes .45 ball is still available in chain. Used in theater and in comp
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: baddoggy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ive learned that some military snipers prefer to carry a secondary in 45acp in contrast to the rest of the members they are providing overwatch for who carry 9mm. can anyone provide insight as to why? </div></div>
Ya might be reading into it a little too much.. I don't know percentages but I do know that its really a personal preference.. 45 is going to pack a little more punch then a 9mm. I am packing a Browning Hi-power 9mm and I use hollow points.. It is plenty enough to stop someone from advancing plus it is lighter to carry. I am more accurate with it then I am a .45.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: baddoggy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ive learned that some military snipers prefer to carry a secondary in 45acp in contrast to the rest of the members they are providing overwatch for who carry 9mm. can anyone provide insight as to why? </div></div>
Ya might be reading into it a little too much.. I don't know percentages but I do know that its really a personal preference.. 45 is going to pack a little more punch then a 9mm. I am packing a Browning Hi-power 9mm and I use hollow points.. It is plenty enough to stop someone from advancing plus it is lighter to carry. I am more accurate with it then I am a .45.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
The SF soldiers as far as I know are the only soldiers in the Army who have a choice. The rest get M9's as far as I know and there may be a few carrying glock unofficially because that is what we issue to Iraqi police and probably afghan police as well.
The 1911 has a better trigger than the M9 by a long shot, and that alone might have serious appeal. If the guns are well customized they can be very accurate, but I've seen some sloppy 1911's in need of serious repairs.
Loose sights, poorly fit barrels, magazines that are worn out and unreliable, finishes totally gone to the extent the guns rust without constant care- these issues stand in the way of the 1911 being really competitive in the Army circles where the guns are 50+ years old and may have seen 5-6 wars.
So really it depends on which group, who's armorer is worth a crap, and what work has been done, as the SF 1911 can be anything from a silk purse to a sows ear.
The marines are a whole different story- they've always taken their 1911's seriously, with custom Springfields, Caspian refit MEU pistols, and new Kimber pistols in supply. The Army is working with older pistols, less parts support, and less experienced armorers IMO.
The SF soldiers as far as I know are the only soldiers in the Army who have a choice. The rest get M9's as far as I know and there may be a few carrying glock unofficially because that is what we issue to Iraqi police and probably afghan police as well.
The 1911 has a better trigger than the M9 by a long shot, and that alone might have serious appeal. If the guns are well customized they can be very accurate, but I've seen some sloppy 1911's in need of serious repairs.
Loose sights, poorly fit barrels, magazines that are worn out and unreliable, finishes totally gone to the extent the guns rust without constant care- these issues stand in the way of the 1911 being really competitive in the Army circles where the guns are 50+ years old and may have seen 5-6 wars.
So really it depends on which group, who's armorer is worth a crap, and what work has been done, as the SF 1911 can be anything from a silk purse to a sows ear.
The marines are a whole different story- they've always taken their 1911's seriously, with custom Springfields, Caspian refit MEU pistols, and new Kimber pistols in supply. The Army is working with older pistols, less parts support, and less experienced armorers IMO.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: baddoggy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ive learned that some military snipers prefer to carry a secondary in 45acp in contrast to the rest of the members they are providing overwatch for who carry 9mm. can anyone provide insight as to why? </div></div>
Because they can.
Cheers,
Doc
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: baddoggy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ive learned that some military snipers prefer to carry a secondary in 45acp in contrast to the rest of the members they are providing overwatch for who carry 9mm. can anyone provide insight as to why? </div></div>
Because they can.
Cheers,
Doc
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In Chris Kyle's book he addresses this. Basically, if you're in a combat engagement and you're down to your handgun. Why not go with the bigger available caliber? </div></div>
If you have mastered shot placement, and you can consistently hit the vitals ( for example, the nose/face ), wouldn't you prefer more bullets? You could incapacitate a few more people before you run out of ammo. Just think, those few extra bullets may be all u need to get out of a life threatening situation.... </div></div>
In a combat situation, just because you are down to a pistol on account of a malfunction or running dry doesn't necessarily mean the enemy is 7 yards away.
So really expecting to hit them in the face with your adrenaline pumping isn't realistic.
Of course SF guys today have access to hollowpoint ammunition if they want it, and hollowpoint 9mm is as effective as .45 230 grain ball.
I'm not sure if there are .45 hollowpoints available, but I'm pretty sure the 9mm 147grain subsonic subgun ammo is a hollowpoint.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In Chris Kyle's book he addresses this. Basically, if you're in a combat engagement and you're down to your handgun. Why not go with the bigger available caliber? </div></div>
If you have mastered shot placement, and you can consistently hit the vitals ( for example, the nose/face ), wouldn't you prefer more bullets? You could incapacitate a few more people before you run out of ammo. Just think, those few extra bullets may be all u need to get out of a life threatening situation.... </div></div>
In a combat situation, just because you are down to a pistol on account of a malfunction or running dry doesn't necessarily mean the enemy is 7 yards away.
So really expecting to hit them in the face with your adrenaline pumping isn't realistic.
Of course SF guys today have access to hollowpoint ammunition if they want it, and hollowpoint 9mm is as effective as .45 230 grain ball.
I'm not sure if there are .45 hollowpoints available, but I'm pretty sure the 9mm 147grain subsonic subgun ammo is a hollowpoint.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
this is currently issued to SOF in 45
this is currently issued to SOF in 45
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
I prefer my Wilson's in 45 ACP, but one thing you should give some thought to when carrying a 1911. You have two safeties and one of them is a grip safety. In a gunfight, you are highly likely to get shot in the hand. You may not be able to engage the grip safety and/or transfer to the weak hand.
I prefer my Wilson's in 45 ACP, but one thing you should give some thought to when carrying a 1911. You have two safeties and one of them is a grip safety. In a gunfight, you are highly likely to get shot in the hand. You may not be able to engage the grip safety and/or transfer to the weak hand.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
In ACTUAL combat if you are down to sidearms, your @#$% is weak. Round count is critical and the last thing you think of. IMHO.
In ACTUAL combat if you are down to sidearms, your @#$% is weak. Round count is critical and the last thing you think of. IMHO.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this is currently issued to SOF in 45
</div></div>
I luv my HK
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this is currently issued to SOF in 45
I luv my HK
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogue308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most mil snipers I run into prefer a rifle caliber... </div></div>
Yup .50 BMG side arm. They know they're bad asses with one of those on their hip.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogue308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most mil snipers I run into prefer a rifle caliber... </div></div>
Yup .50 BMG side arm. They know they're bad asses with one of those on their hip.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
Scoped .44 Mag.
Scoped .44 Mag.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
Couple buddies told me they'd hit guys several times in Iraq and it wouldn't take them out of the fight.
Using short barreled 5.56s, and 9mms.
Hitting a guy, just to see his skinny ass get up and keep firing would REALLY piss you off.
Couple buddies told me they'd hit guys several times in Iraq and it wouldn't take them out of the fight.
Using short barreled 5.56s, and 9mms.
Hitting a guy, just to see his skinny ass get up and keep firing would REALLY piss you off.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Couple buddies told me they'd hit guys several times in Iraq and it wouldn't take them out of the fight.
Using short barreled 5.56s, and 9mms.
Hitting a guy, just to see his skinny ass get up and keep firing would REALLY piss you off. </div></div>
Tell your silly friend to stop hitting them with the firearm and try shooting them with it.
C'mon guys... there is no correct answer, just pick one, learn to use it well and if you are going to shoot someone, keep shooting them in the right places until they lay down and stop presenting a threat. I've treated folks shot with just about every common pistol round... I could pick and support any anecdote, but the underlying truth is... shot placement and luck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Couple buddies told me they'd hit guys several times in Iraq and it wouldn't take them out of the fight.
Using short barreled 5.56s, and 9mms.
Hitting a guy, just to see his skinny ass get up and keep firing would REALLY piss you off. </div></div>
Tell your silly friend to stop hitting them with the firearm and try shooting them with it.
C'mon guys... there is no correct answer, just pick one, learn to use it well and if you are going to shoot someone, keep shooting them in the right places until they lay down and stop presenting a threat. I've treated folks shot with just about every common pistol round... I could pick and support any anecdote, but the underlying truth is... shot placement and luck
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Loose sights, poorly fit barrels, magazines that are worn out and unreliable, finishes totally gone to the extent the guns rust without constant care- these issues stand in the way of the 1911 being really competitive in the Army circles where the guns are 50+ years old and may have seen 5-6 wars.
</div></div>
The M9 became military issue in 1985 so i doubt anyone is carrying a 50+ yrs old pistol and as for the army if they are not carrying standard issue then they have special unit permission and then it is definitely not something old. All armorers are not created equal but they do take their jobs seriously and I do not believe they would allow a pistol in need of "serious repairs" to go out the door.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Loose sights, poorly fit barrels, magazines that are worn out and unreliable, finishes totally gone to the extent the guns rust without constant care- these issues stand in the way of the 1911 being really competitive in the Army circles where the guns are 50+ years old and may have seen 5-6 wars.
</div></div>
The M9 became military issue in 1985 so i doubt anyone is carrying a 50+ yrs old pistol and as for the army if they are not carrying standard issue then they have special unit permission and then it is definitely not something old. All armorers are not created equal but they do take their jobs seriously and I do not believe they would allow a pistol in need of "serious repairs" to go out the door.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
Back to the "no hollow points in the military." Why would that matter. You'd think if you're trying to kill the enemy, you would want to use the nastiest, most effective bullet.
Back to the "no hollow points in the military." Why would that matter. You'd think if you're trying to kill the enemy, you would want to use the nastiest, most effective bullet.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaKid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back to the "no hollow points in the military." Why would that matter. You'd think if you're trying to kill the enemy, you would want to use the nastiest, most effective bullet. </div></div>
US military official doctrine is not to kill the enemy
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaKid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back to the "no hollow points in the military." Why would that matter. You'd think if you're trying to kill the enemy, you would want to use the nastiest, most effective bullet. </div></div>
US military official doctrine is not to kill the enemy
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: baddoggy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ive learned that some military snipers prefer to carry a secondary in 45acp in contrast to the rest of the members they are providing overwatch for who carry 9mm. can anyone provide insight as to why? </div></div>
I've heard through the grapevine that some SF units get to choose caliber and pistol. And that some are choosing....the 1911 platform....what?! no glock?!</div></div>
1st Special forces group 1984-1986 we could use ANY pistol that we qualified with in range and tire house.
I carried browning hi-power, two of my team members had CZ-75, one guy carried a S&W 29, a couple 1911s.
I know the Ranger battallion in Ft. Lewis that we trained with used mostly 1911s, although I did qualify with one Ranger who used a H&K VP70.
I am not plugged in to the current sidearm controversy, just throwing out how it was in my time.
In 1985 the Beretta's came out, we got em, a few guys liked em, but we could still carry any sidearm we qualified with.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: baddoggy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ive learned that some military snipers prefer to carry a secondary in 45acp in contrast to the rest of the members they are providing overwatch for who carry 9mm. can anyone provide insight as to why? </div></div>
I've heard through the grapevine that some SF units get to choose caliber and pistol. And that some are choosing....the 1911 platform....what?! no glock?!</div></div>
1st Special forces group 1984-1986 we could use ANY pistol that we qualified with in range and tire house.
I carried browning hi-power, two of my team members had CZ-75, one guy carried a S&W 29, a couple 1911s.
I know the Ranger battallion in Ft. Lewis that we trained with used mostly 1911s, although I did qualify with one Ranger who used a H&K VP70.
I am not plugged in to the current sidearm controversy, just throwing out how it was in my time.
In 1985 the Beretta's came out, we got em, a few guys liked em, but we could still carry any sidearm we qualified with.
S
Seth8541
Guest
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaKid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back to the "no hollow points in the military." Why would that matter. You'd think if you're trying to kill the enemy, you would want to use the nastiest, most effective bullet. </div></div>
US military official doctrine is not to kill the enemy </div></div>
Lol, so true. We're supposed to wound them, then give them medical aide, then put them up in a room which supplies more comfort than anything they would ever experience in their own country, supply them with a lawyer so as to assure that their apparent "constitutional right" don't get abused, and ask them nicely over a hot meal if they have any information they would like to share with us.
Back to the OP's question. Both the ODA units i was attached to were packing HK USP .45. Im assuming its because of the advantages in the terminal ballistics area with the .45 over the 9mm. When i shoot someone I want a bullet that is going to put them down with 1 round. So why would I even contemplate a 9mm? Sure you have a magazine capacity, but with that 9mm there is a very real possibility that your gonna need them, especially if they ate wearing some type of gear. I'll take a 230gn ball round over that puny 9mm every time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaKid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back to the "no hollow points in the military." Why would that matter. You'd think if you're trying to kill the enemy, you would want to use the nastiest, most effective bullet. </div></div>
US military official doctrine is not to kill the enemy </div></div>
Lol, so true. We're supposed to wound them, then give them medical aide, then put them up in a room which supplies more comfort than anything they would ever experience in their own country, supply them with a lawyer so as to assure that their apparent "constitutional right" don't get abused, and ask them nicely over a hot meal if they have any information they would like to share with us.
Back to the OP's question. Both the ODA units i was attached to were packing HK USP .45. Im assuming its because of the advantages in the terminal ballistics area with the .45 over the 9mm. When i shoot someone I want a bullet that is going to put them down with 1 round. So why would I even contemplate a 9mm? Sure you have a magazine capacity, but with that 9mm there is a very real possibility that your gonna need them, especially if they ate wearing some type of gear. I'll take a 230gn ball round over that puny 9mm every time.
Re: why do some sf snipers prefer 45acp?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinnypitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Loose sights, poorly fit barrels, magazines that are worn out and unreliable, finishes totally gone to the extent the guns rust without constant care- these issues stand in the way of the 1911 being really competitive in the Army circles where the guns are 50+ years old and may have seen 5-6 wars.
</div></div>
The M9 became military issue in 1985 so i doubt anyone is carrying a 50+ yrs old pistol and as for the army if they are not carrying standard issue then they have special unit permission and then it is definitely not something old. All armorers are not created equal but they do take their jobs seriously and I do not believe they would allow a pistol in need of "serious repairs" to go out the door.
</div></div>
I was talking about 1911's I've seen obviously, and they could be older than 50 years old.
Guys on the range fire a round and when the slide opens a shower of rounds come out the top of the slide because the magazine feed lips are totally blown out.
Sights loose, guns with no finish with people battling rust daily, guns needing spring rebuild kits, original sloppy barrels etc.
A 1911 after 50 years is going to require a good armorer to compete with a new M9. Beavertails, commander hammers, spring rebuild kits, new fitted barrels and bushings, new combat sights, these are things that need to happen ideally for the 1911 to compete.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinnypitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Loose sights, poorly fit barrels, magazines that are worn out and unreliable, finishes totally gone to the extent the guns rust without constant care- these issues stand in the way of the 1911 being really competitive in the Army circles where the guns are 50+ years old and may have seen 5-6 wars.
</div></div>
The M9 became military issue in 1985 so i doubt anyone is carrying a 50+ yrs old pistol and as for the army if they are not carrying standard issue then they have special unit permission and then it is definitely not something old. All armorers are not created equal but they do take their jobs seriously and I do not believe they would allow a pistol in need of "serious repairs" to go out the door.
</div></div>
I was talking about 1911's I've seen obviously, and they could be older than 50 years old.
Guys on the range fire a round and when the slide opens a shower of rounds come out the top of the slide because the magazine feed lips are totally blown out.
Sights loose, guns with no finish with people battling rust daily, guns needing spring rebuild kits, original sloppy barrels etc.
A 1911 after 50 years is going to require a good armorer to compete with a new M9. Beavertails, commander hammers, spring rebuild kits, new fitted barrels and bushings, new combat sights, these are things that need to happen ideally for the 1911 to compete.
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